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Omnipotence Paradox and God's Limitations

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
What makes you believe that puny humans have the equipment to weigh something that has no substance and immeasurable power?

What makes you believe that a being who (on your opinion) has no substantial (literally insubstantial) yet has infinate power (meaning you cannot exist) actually exists outside your own mind?


The Bible describes the Creator as a Being with "absolute power and awesome strength". (Isaiah 40:26) Looking at the vast Universe we can get some idea of just how powerful he really is.

The bible is a bronze age book, not a physics book. It is ok for reference in matters of faith, not good in matters of fact, reality, cosmology etc


Like the wind, you can observe the force with your literal eyes, but not the substance. You can measure the velocity of the wind because humans have invented the equipment to do so......they have no "equipment" to measure the power of the Creator. That is why "believers" have something that non-believers do not....."eyes of faith". We see past what unbelievers see with their eyes, because for them, it goes no further than the brain. Faith goes all the way to the heart. That is the difference. God can only touch a part of us that is alive. When faith is dead there is nothing to touch. This is why I believe that the divide between the two groups is such an unbreachable chasm on these forums. :(

Bad example...Wind is variation in air pressure, observable and measurable

Measuring the power of a myth is more difficult however science has calculated that the amount of energy (sum of all positive energy minus the sum of all negative energy) amounts to zero.

Actually you dont see past reality, you see with your imagination

Misnomer, the heart is a muscle, nothing more. It cannot think

Nope, the reason for the gap is some believe objectivity and some believe subjectivity is the key to understanding. It does of course depend on what one wants to understand. Reality that is happening right now and has happened from the beginning or the imagination of bronze age goat herders. (Please dont misrepresent that last phrase, everyone of some substance owned goats)...
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Which is actually part of why her question is so hilariously dumb, really no thought at all given to how much of a massive void of logic it requires to state that :tearsofjoy:

Prove its dumb! It is factual and valid for this universe

What is dumb is calling Einstein dumb because you cant figure out a way to override the mass/energy equivalence equation.

Oh, and it wasn't a question (note the lack of question mark). It was a statement of fact
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
We know there are other galaxies other than the milky way - do we know "how many"?

If there are other galaxies in existence - the Universe is expansive - can we measure that in the units we have?

About 100 billion in the observable galaxy

Yes. Certainly the observable universe has been measured. Approximately 93 billion light years across.

At the risk of being contrarian - we humans have as much chance of doing that as a fish has of gauging the depth and vastness of the ocean it exists in - and I would state the fish has a better chance :)

The fish exists, the ocean exists, both are real, can be observed, measured, etc. To date no god has been shown to exist. That is why some people have faith.

would agree that god is a human made construct and does not exist - but there is an underlying divine - a universal truth that is non transactional and at least in my mind, cannot be denied. If one chooses to say that there is not - well - again that is completely their prerogative.

Anyone can believe whatever they want, that is faith. But one doesn't need faith to believe in reality
 

Timothy Spurlin

Active Member
What is "objective" about the "evidence" for either side of this issue? Both depend on "interpretation" of the same "evidence". If your particular bias leads you in one direction or another, then you simply have the choice between two "belief" systems. These are the only facts. What do YOU believe? And WHY do you believe it?

Those who believe in God need no more evidence than what is right in front of their noses....those who want an excuse not to believe in an intelligent Creator, will latch on to whatever science presents, no matter how far fetched it is, whilst accusing Bible believers of accepting fairy tales. Never mind that it requires more faith to believe in evolution's fairy tales, IMO.

This issue is about us and what is in our own hearts......our choice creates a clear separation between those who believe in God and those who believe in science.

Examine the evidence without the pressure to conform to what "intelligent people" accept and you will find God everywhere in creation...not in an endless series of fortunate undirected accidents. I have made my choice......you must make yours.

Do you understand objective evidence?
Objective evidence is from outside of the mind.
Subjective evidence is from the mind.
 

Firemorphic

Activist Membrane
Prove its dumb!

If you can put it up on weighing scales and measure it's body, you can safety say it isn't God. You want to measure humans and animals, created things; not God, good for you but don't go around pretending you have any actual points here, when it's rather the complete opposite. In fact, it's so dumb that it doesn't even need a philosophical refutation because it's so grade #0 logic.

It was a statement of fact

No, it was just a dumb, a really really dumb statement.
 

Timothy Spurlin

Active Member
If you can put it up on weighing scales and measure it's body, you can safety say it isn't God. You want to measure humans and animals, created things; not God, good for you but don't go around pretending you have any actual points here, when it's rather the complete opposite. In fact, it's so dumb that it doesn't even need a philosophical refutation because it's so grade #0 logic.



No, it was just a dumb, a really really dumb statement.

Don't pretend you have objective evidence that your god is real.
All you have is subjective evidence from your mind.
Every theist I have ask for objective evidence of a god, have failed to provide it.
 

Firemorphic

Activist Membrane
Don't pretend you have objective evidence that your god is real.
All you have is subjective evidence from your mind.
Every theist I have ask for objective evidence of a god, have failed to provide it.

Here comes the irrelevant comments guy with his three part dancing act.

The least relevant thing you could do, is what you've done, which is dodge the subject entirely.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
If you can put it up on weighing scales and measure it's body, you can safety say it isn't God. You want to measure humans and animals, created things; not God, good for you but don't go around pretending you have any actual points here, when it's rather the complete opposite. In fact, it's so dumb that it doesn't even need a philosophical refutation because it's so grade #0 logic.



No, it was just a dumb, a really really dumb statement.

So you cant prove its dumb so instead waffle about weighing scales... Sheesh . Maybe learning a little about measurement techniques before jumping on to a discussion on measuring something would help you hear

Ahh philosophical? So where is the reality in an imagined, bronze age myth?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Do you understand objective evidence?
Objective evidence is from outside of the mind.
Subjective evidence is from the mind.

I understand that when people choose a "side" in the issue of God's existence, their objectivity vanishes. Each will then only consider "evidence" that supports their own "side".

You do understand how a biased mind thinks? Once someone is convinced about the validity of their stance, there is not much that will shift them unless, they are convinced otherwise by something undeniable.

The old saying is...."a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still". It still applies.....
 

Timothy Spurlin

Active Member
I understand that when people choose a "side" in the issue of God's existence, their objectivity vanishes. Each will then only consider "evidence" that supports their own "side".

You do understand how a biased mind thinks? Once someone is convinced about the validity of their stance, there is not much that will shift them unless, they are convinced otherwise by something undeniable.

The old saying is...."a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still". It still applies.....

Have you looked into a mirror lately?
Your mind is stuck on bias.

If you don't have any objective evidence that your god is real, then admit it.
Otherwise present some evidence that comes from outside of your mind.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
What makes you believe that a being who (on your opinion) has no substantial (literally insubstantial) yet has infinate power (meaning you cannot exist) actually exists outside your own mind?

Nothing comes from nothing, so logically, something created matter. Then you have the organization of that matter which itself speaks volumes about the organisational ability of what created it. Where is it written in the annals of science that humans understand the origins of anything....atoms, molecules, the universe or life itself in its myriad forms? If there are "natural laws" at work, who made those laws? Can laws, organization and information contained in codes that shape every living organism, just come out of nowhere? Is it all just an amazing fluke? This remains a mystery.....

Out of that 'mystery' comes a million different opinions about how it all came about....and all are free to come to their own conclusions. You have and so have I.

The bible is a bronze age book, not a physics book. It is ok for reference in matters of faith, not good in matters of fact, reality, cosmology etc

Oh please...every time I hear that description "Bronze Age" applied to the Bible, I see someone trying to discredit a work that has transcended every age and is still as valid in its message as it was when it was written. It is a book about human nature, which never changes and man's relationship with God, which is in a constant state of flux, depending on the trends of the time. Humans are incredibly predictable.....the Bible speaks about how many unbelievers there would be in this time period. The law of "Cause and Effect" is at work. The more humans imagine the level of their own intelligence to be...the less they need God.

The Bible (though not religion) stands up to scrutiny in every way....why do you think it doesn't?
It does not disagree with what science can prove.....it disagrees with much of what science "assumes".

Science cannot disprove the Bible, or God's existence, but it can have a difference of opinion. We choose our own opinion for our own reasons.

Bad example...Wind is variation in air pressure, observable and measurable

I believe that I mentioned that.

Measuring the power of a myth is more difficult however science has calculated that the amount of energy (sum of all positive energy minus the sum of all negative energy) amounts to zero.

Actually you dont see past reality, you see with your imagination

The Universe, our solar system, our unique planet, so different to all the others as the only one that supports life, is not a figment of my imagination. With that reality in mind, logic tells me that the incredible design in living things and in the interaction of so many complex, though compatible systems all working in harmony in a perfectly functioning ecology, tells me that a series of millions of fortunate accidents is not responsible for everything I see. You are free to come to your own conclusions.

Misnomer, the heart is a muscle, nothing more. It cannot think

The heart is much more than a mere pump for the circulatory system. It is the very seat of human emotion and has been for as long as I can remember. Our heart is in turn affected by our emotions.....people can actually die of a broken heart.

Nope, the reason for the gap is some believe objectivity and some believe subjectivity is the key to understanding. It does of course depend on what one wants to understand. Reality that is happening right now and has happened from the beginning or the imagination of bronze age goat herders. (Please dont misrepresent that last phrase, everyone of some substance owned goats)...

There it is again....the "Bronze Age" included the Egyptians, one of the most accomplished civilisations in history.
That is a derogatory description used by critics to discredit the Bible writers. Tell me who the goat herders were? Many of the Bible writers were not goat herders at all. Some were Kings who had well educated scribes. Jews were not uneducated. But by the time of Jesus' arrival on the scene, the educated ones had elevated themselves out of contention to be attracted to his ministry. History repeats.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Have you looked into a mirror lately?
Your mind is stuck on bias.

If you don't have any objective evidence that your god is real, then admit it.
Otherwise present some evidence that comes from outside of your mind.

Is your bias getting in the way perhaps?

You choose your own position for your own reasons. There is no such thing as objective eveidence in this question.

The evidence for God's existence for the majority of earth's inhabitants will have to be a personal encounter. It won't come from me or any other believer to those who have already decided that God does not exist.
 
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ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Nothing comes from nothing, so logically, something created matter. Then you have the organization of that matter which itself speaks volumes about the organisational ability of what created it. Where is it written in the annals of science that humans understand the origins of anything....atoms, molecules, the universe or life itself in its myriad forms? If there are "natural laws" at work, who made those laws? Can laws, organization and information contained in codes that shape every living organism, just come out of nowhere? Is it all just an amazing fluke? This remains a mystery.....

Out of that 'mystery' comes a million different opinions about how it all came about....and all are free to come to their own conclusions. You have and so have I.

I assume you did not read my post, the second law of thermodynamics did not begin to coalesce until AFTER the bb.

The universe is chaotic, gravity sees to that
not organised.

Where is it written in science that god did it with magic. Science is happy to say "dont know" religion isnt so invents gods to ease their lack of knowledge


Oh please...every time I hear that description "Bronze Age" applied to the Bible, I see someone trying to discredit a work that has transcended every age and is still as valid in its message as it was when it was written. It is a book about human nature, which never changes and man's relationship with God, which is in a constant state of flux, depending on the trends of the time. Humans are incredibly predictable.....the Bible speaks about how many unbelievers there would be in this time period. The law of "Cause and Effect" is at work. The more humans imagine the level of their own intelligence to be...the less they need God.

The Bible (though not religion) stands up to scrutiny in every way....why do you think it doesn't?
It does not disagree with what science can prove.....it disagrees with much of what science "assumes".

Science cannot disprove the Bible, or God's existence, but it can have a difference of opinion. We choose our own opinion for our own reasons.

Are you saying its not a bronze age book?

It is a book written by people that had no understanding of the nature of the universe so they made up stories to ease their lack of understanding. And incidentally bestow much power on themselves.

Dont be silly, the bible bible can and has been pulled appary and found lacking in almost every aspect it touches on

E=MC2 proves the god of revelation 19:6 (kjv) cannot exist

I believe that I mentioned that.

Yes but still made implecations that if was unmeasurable

The Universe, our solar system, our unique planet, so different to all the others as the only one that supports life, is not a figment of my imagination. With that reality in mind, logic tells me that the incredible design in living things and in the interaction of so many complex, though compatible systems all working in harmony in a perfectly functioning ecology, tells me that a series of millions of fortunate accidents is not responsible for everything I see. You are free to come to your own conclusions.

Prove this planet is unique in being the only one to support life. That is an extraordinary bold claim which requires extraordinarily evidence


The heart is much more than a mere pump for the circulatory system. It is the very seat of human emotion and has been for as long as I can remember. Our heart is in turn affected by our emotions.....people can actually die of
f a broken heart.

Yes a pump to circulate blood, no emotion involves . Dying of a broken heart is a figure of speech not a fact

There it is again....the "Bronze Age" included the Egyptians, one of the most accomplished civilisations in history.
That is a derogatory description used by critics to discredit the Bible writers. Tell me who the goat herders were? Many of the Bible writers were not goat herders at all. Some were Kings who had well educated scribes. Jews were not uneducated. But by the time of Jesus' arrival on the scene, the educated ones had elevated themselves out of contention to be attracted to his ministry. History repeats.

And in that history even kings kept goats

What? Again you must have proof of your claim that the educated jews left their belief to follow an itinerant preacher - who incidentally probably didnt exist as described in the bible
 

Timothy Spurlin

Active Member
Nothing comes from nothing, so logically, something created matter. Then you have the organization of that matter which itself speaks volumes about the organisational ability of what created it. Where is it written in the annals of science that humans understand the origins of anything....atoms, molecules, the universe or life itself in its myriad forms? If there are "natural laws" at work, who made those laws? Can laws, organization and information contained in codes that shape every living organism, just come out of nowhere? Is it all just an amazing fluke? This remains a mystery.....

Out of that 'mystery' comes a million different opinions about how it all came about....and all are free to come to their own conclusions. You have and so have I.



Oh please...every time I hear that description "Bronze Age" applied to the Bible, I see someone trying to discredit a work that has transcended every age and is still as valid in its message as it was when it was written. It is a book about human nature, which never changes and man's relationship with God, which is in a constant state of flux, depending on the trends of the time. Humans are incredibly predictable.....the Bible speaks about how many unbelievers there would be in this time period. The law of "Cause and Effect" is at work. The more humans imagine the level of their own intelligence to be...the less they need God.

The Bible (though not religion) stands up to scrutiny in every way....why do you think it doesn't?
It does not disagree with what science can prove.....it disagrees with much of what science "assumes".

Science cannot disprove the Bible, or God's existence, but it can have a difference of opinion. We choose our own opinion for our own reasons.



I believe that I mentioned that.



The Universe, our solar system, our unique planet, so different to all the others as the only one that supports life, is not a figment of my imagination. With that reality in mind, logic tells me that the incredible design in living things and in the interaction of so many complex, though compatible systems all working in harmony in a perfectly functioning ecology, tells me that a series of millions of fortunate accidents is not responsible for everything I see. You are free to come to your own conclusions.



The heart is much more than a mere pump for the circulatory system. It is the very seat of human emotion and has been for as long as I can remember. Our heart is in turn affected by our emotions.....people can actually die of a broken heart.



There it is again....the "Bronze Age" included the Egyptians, one of the most accomplished civilisations in history.
That is a derogatory description used by critics to discredit the Bible writers. Tell me who the goat herders were? Many of the Bible writers were not goat herders at all. Some were Kings who had well educated scribes. Jews were not uneducated. But by the time of Jesus' arrival on the scene, the educated ones had elevated themselves out of contention to be attracted to his ministry. History repeats.

Can you provide objective evidence of a god?
The Bible is the claim not the evidence.
The bible is religious, it was written by humans.
The Bible is based off of bronze and iron age beliefs.
Where does the Bible say how many non-believers there will be today?
 

Timothy Spurlin

Active Member
Is your bias getting in the way perhaps?

You choose your own position for your own reasons. There is no such thing as objective eveidence in this question.

The evidence for God's existence for the majority of earth's inhabitants will have to be a personal encounter. It won't come from me or any other believer to those who have already decided that God does not exist.

Do you understand what objective evidence is?

I believe in zero gods, that makes me an atheist.
You believe in God, that makes you a theist. As a theist you have the burden of proof that a god exist.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Do you understand what objective evidence is?

I believe in zero gods, that makes me an atheist.
You believe in God, that makes you a theist. As a theist you have the burden of proof that a god exist.

Take your fingers out of your ears. If you can't comprehend what is said to you, how is conversation even possible.

Believe whatever you wish.
 
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