Matthew 27:46 anyone figure this out yet?

[siti]

There is AMPLE evidence from archaeology, history and documents from before the close of the 1st century

Oh is there? Well that's that settled then! I don't suppose you would care to be just a little more specific would you? Or are you just going to say the word "AMPLE" even louder next time?

I hope you're not trying to use an ad populum argument

Not at all, I was, in fact, refuting your argumentum ex silentio ad populum - basically you argued that because a lot of people didn't (bother to) say anything about Christ at all, the stories told about him by a few of the earliest Christians must be true.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Oh is there? Well that's that settled then! I don't suppose you would care to be just a little more specific would you? Or are you just going to say the word "AMPLE" even louder next time?

Not at all, I was, in fact, refuting your argumentum ex silentio ad populum - basically you argued that because a lot of people didn't (bother to) say anything about Christ at all, the stories told about him by a few of the earliest Christians must be true.

Your "fallacy" is moot! It's not "a few Christians" it's DOZENS of Christians who risked expulsion from the Jews and martydom from Rome wrote DOZENS of documents, contemporaneous to the period, and support comes from over a dozen significant Gentile historians.

 

[siti]

...over a dozen significant Gentile historians.

...early first century historians - contemporaneous with Jesus? I don't suppose you would care to quote them or cite their works would you?

 

[BilliardsBall]

...early first century historians - contemporaneous with Jesus? I don't suppose you would care to quote them or cite their works would you?

I gave a list elsewhere. It includes people you obviously haven't heard of, like LUKE and PLINY and JOSEPHUS.

 

[siti]

Luke? Hardly an independent witness...Pliny (the Younger) wrote a letter to Trajan - about Christians, not Christ - in 112AD - that's not contemporaneous with Christ - and Josephus wrote towards the end of the first century but did not attest directly to anything that Christ did whilst he was alive. There are references to the deaths of John the Baptist and James which seem to corroborate some of the Biblical narrative and a possible (though scholars are much more skeptical of the authenticity of this passage) confirmation of some of the details of the Crucifixion. Neither of them confirm any details of any miracles or teachings of Jesus and neither do they indicate that there were particularly huge numbers of Christians. Neither of them were born before Jesus died. Luke may have been contemporaneous with Jesus - but there is absolutely no evidence that he ever met Jesus or that he was ever in Palestine (at all as far as I know, let alone when Jesus was there). Luke may have been a gentile convert to Christianity - or he may have been a Hellenized Jew - we don't know.

Essentially, what your earliest historical witnesses say is that - yes, there was this guy called Jesus whose followers claimed was the Christ, and he and some of his followers were executed by the Romans. I doubt anyone is contesting any of that.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

One analogy to help explain Matthew 27:46 is connected to Mr Spock of Star Trek. Spock is primarily Vulcan, but he also has a human side. His human side is mostly repressed, but it does appear every now and then; fascinating!

To further develop this analogy, Spock is half-human because Leonard Nimoy couldn't hide all his human emotions. Like Jesus, Nimoy is just a human and the character got plot points added to fill in some holes.

When your human teacher is killed off when you assumed he was going to go on some epic reign, defeating evil and such, you have to make up reasons why that didn't go so well, just as Star Trek had to explain this:

Remember that God made Him to be sin who knew no sin.

Well, that's problematic because despite the assertions to the contrary, Jesus sinned all the time, from childhood onward.

This is one of the prayers in the Hebrew Bible. And if we are reading the surrounding text, it is largely what is happening to Jesus.

It supposedly happened to David, and the NT authors loved copy/pasting tropes from other famous people onto Jesus' story.

The prophecy here fulfilled, was one found in Psalm 22, which was written by David, who was a prophetic type of Jesus Christ in many respects.

He'd be Osama Bin Laden today. He was hired by the leader of the country and then betrayed and then went on lots of terrorism missions against his own people all while blaming the leader.

What if... just what if Jesus never actually expected it to go down like this?

Indeed. He and Judas were in on it. Jesus expected to make a big stink in front of the authorities, maybe have them bow before him and admit he was right ... but they just shook him off like some random nutjob terrorist and he started to freak out when he couldn't run anymore. Remember, people had wanted him dead for months AND HE ALWAYS RAN AWAY. That is not the attitude of someone who wants to die for anyone, let alone us specifically.

From the history of the Prophets before him, of course he knew.

But many deaths were made up during or after Jesus' lifetime. There is little to no evidence that Jews killed their prophets. And let's not forget that being a prophet was like how our presidents have religious people surrounding them: it's for PR, not God. Prophets were hired by kings to be yes-men, to say God gave a green light to whatever you wanted. If you botched it, you were executed, by the king, not "Jews."

 

[pearl]

But many deaths were made up during or after Jesus' lifetime. There is little to no evidence that Jews killed their prophets. And let's not forget that being a prophet was like how our presidents have religious people surrounding them: it's for PR, not God. Prophets were hired by kings to be yes-men, to say God gave a green light to whatever you wanted. If you botched it, you were executed, by the king, not "Jews."

Those kings were Jews.

https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/73107/did-jews-kill-any-of-their-prophet

 

[74x12]

Well, that's problematic because despite the assertions to the contrary, Jesus sinned all the time, from childhood onward.

Surely, you aren't serious. So according to you Jesus sinned all the time? Prove it.

 

[Muffled]

Matthew 27:46

Deity why have you forsaken, g- d why have you forsaken...

Context seems to be, yoheshua saying the deity has forsaken him, anyone figure this out?

Sort of contradicts the other verses.

I believe I have and posted more than once. Jesus is quoting a prophectic Psalm.

 

[Muffled]

Ask the tea leaves.....

I believe I haven't had tea recently but I am usually good at reading them. It doesn't work with tea bags though.

 

[Muffled]

Does it not stand to reason that if God did not leave his son at that moment, that he could not have died? He had been with him every moment up until that time....he had to let him go so that the ransom could be paid and all humanity could be released from sin. Three days later he raised him up.

I believe that is speculation. God is in Jesus and there is no leaving.

 

[Deeje]

I believe that is speculation. God is in Jesus and there is no leaving.

Why is it speculation? This is what the Bible says.
Why would Jesus feel God forsaking him for any other reason?

At Luke 4:9-12 the devil tempted Jesus one last time....

"He then led him into Jerusalem and stationed him on the battlement of the temple and said to him: “If you are a son of God, throw yourself down from here, 10 for it is written, ‘He will give his angels a command concerning you, to preserve you,’ 11 and, ‘They will carry you on their hands, so that you may not strike your foot against a stone.’” 12 In answer Jesus said to him: “It is said, ‘You must not put Jehovah your God to the test.’”

The devil knew that God would never allow harm to come to his son until it was time for him to pay the ransom. No one laid a hand on Jesus until the very end of his mission.