Mosaic law still present?

[IndigoChild5559]

Herodotus wrote about Syria-Palestine in 500 BC. Palestine was a province of Syria.

No he didn't. The name Palestine didn't yet exist. You are misrepresenting history. You need to go back to your books. The name Palestine was invented by the Romans after they destroyed Jerusalem. It was derived from the term Philistia (although that territory was actually a small territory to the west) but altered.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Your post, above, refers to periods after the early 1st century. Obviously you are trying to explain that the Kingdom of Herod was not called Palestine, but you haven't offered any other name.

I notice in the post below yours that a member is proposing that the name Palestine existed in 500BC.

Is this a political issue for you, or an historical one?

I notice that in your bpost to another member that you felt that although maybe priests outside of Judea might have become Hellenised, that the main priesthood had remained firm in their believe in their G-d Jehovah? Or something like that?

This cannot be correct. The Temple was filled with graven images, and images of Melgarth Heracles (Baal) and every man who entered the Temple had to handle both because these images were struck on to the Temple coinage, the half and full shekels.
The Priesthood was accused by the Baptist of being a bunch of vipers, and he was short-circuiting funds to the Temple by redeeming sins of all and any who passed by for free, thus cutting out the services of the Jerusalem locals (no wonder they greeted the visitors with palm fronds and flowers!) and the whole Temple money-go-round. Hence Antipas was instructed to send out for his arrest.

The priesthood didn't care about the invader's insults as long as they were ok, and if there is a word for quisling in Hebrew, than the Baptist was no doubt applying it.

Jesus also called for 'Mercy and not Sacrifice'

Ergo........ as can happen in any lands or cultures, the leaders (at that time) had become corrupted.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Your post, above, refers to periods after the early 1st century. Obviously you are trying to explain that the Kingdom of Herod was not called Palestine, but you haven't offered any other name.

I notice in the post below yours that a member is proposing that the name Palestine existed in 500BC.

Is this a political issue for you, or an historical one?

My concern is both historical and political. It is completely factual, and I am opposed to people rewriting history in the attempt to delegitimize the nation state of Israel.

It doesn't matter that I don't know a name for the greater territory, if one indeed existed. The claim was made that it was called Palestine in the day of Herod, and this is not true and I have given the historical explanation why it is not true.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, the priesthood had become corrupt. So? They still performed their obligations.

 

[sooda]

No he didn't. The name Palestine didn't yet exist. You are misrepresenting history. You need to go back to your books. The name Palestine was invented by the Romans after they destroyed Jerusalem. It was derived from the term Philistia (although that territory was actually a small territory to the west) but altered.

This is a PDF file about Herodotus.. He called it Syria-Palestina.

http://www.whowerethephoenicians.com/wp-content/uploads/book/phenicos_new (2)_p175-p180.pdf

 

[sooda]

According to Herodotus

'The Scythians next turned their attention to Egypt, but were met in Palestine by Psammetichus the Egyptian king, who by earnest entreaties supported by bribery managed to prevent their further advance. They withdrew by way of Ascalan in Syria. The bulk of the army passed the town without doing any damage, but a small number of men got left behind and robbed the temple of Aphrodite Urania – the most ancient, I am told, of all the temples of this goddess. The one in Cyprus the Cyprians themselves admit was derived from it, and the one in Cythera was built by the Phoenicians, who belong to this part of Syria. The Scythians who robbed the temple at Ascalan were punished by the goddess with the infliction of what is called the 'female disease', and their descendants still suffer from it. This is the reason the Scythians give for this mysterious complaint, and travellers to the country can see what it is like. The Scythians call those who suffer from it 'Enarees'.' (1)

[...]

'The Egyptians did, however, say that they thought the original Colchians were men from Sesostris' army. My own idea on the subject was based first on the fact that they have black skins and woolly hair (not that that amounts to much, as other nations have the same), and secondly, and more especially, on the fact that the Colchians, the Egyptians, and the Ethiopians are the only races which from ancient times have practised circumcision. The Phoenicians and the Syrians of Palestine themselves admit that they learned the practice from Egypt, and the Syrians who live near the rivers Thermodon and Parthenius, as well as their neighbours the Macronians, say that they learnt it only a short time ago from the Colchians. No other nations use circumcision, and all these are without doubt following the Egyptian lead. As between the Egyptians and the Ethiopians, I cannot say which learn from the other, for the custom is evidentially a very ancient one; but I have no doubt that the other nations adopted it as the result of their intercourse with Egypt, and in this belief I am strongly supported by the fact that Phoenicians who have contact with Greece drop the Egyptian usage, and allow their children to go uncircumcised.' (2)

[…]

'Fifth: from the town of Posideiium, which was founded by Amphilochus, son of Amphiaraus, on the border between Cilicia and Syria, as far as Egypt – omitting Arabian territory, which was free of tax – came 350 talents. This province contains the whole of Phoenicia and that part of Syria which is called Palestine, and Cyprus.' (3)

[…]

PALESTINE IN HERODOTUS I: THE TRANSLATION OF AUBREY DE SÉLINCOURT

Between Persia and Phoenicia lies a very large area of country; and from Phoenicia the branch I am speaking of runs along the Mediterranean coast through Palestine-Syria to Egypt, where it ends. It contains three nations only.' (4)

[…]

'The Phoenicians, with the Syrians of Palestine, contributed 300. The crews wore helmets very like the Greek ones, and linen corslets; they were armed with rimless shields and javelins. These people have a tradition that in ancient times they lived on the Persian Gulf, but migrated to the Syrian coast, where they are found today. This part of Syria, together with the country which extends southward to Egypt, is all known as Palestine.' (5)
'Between Persia and Phoenicia lies a very large area of country; and from Phoenicia the branch I am speaking of runs along the Mediterranean coast through Palestine-Syria to Egypt, where it ends. It contains three nations only.' (4)

 

[sooda]

According to Herodotus, the lands that extend between Persia and Egypt are Syria–Palestine, Phoenicia and the Arabian region. Therefore, if Herodotus mentions the Israelites under another name, then it might be either under that of Syria–Palestine, or that of Phoenicia. Josephus4 tends to believe that Herodotus mentions the Israelites under the term Syrian– Palestinians – and this is the generally accepted belief today. We will see whether Josephus was correct in his assumption further on. In the meantime, let us try to understand what Herodotus himself meant by Syria–Palestine, and who, according to him, were the Phoenicians? Herodotus relates in Chapter III, paragraphs 4–5 that: "Now it happened that Cambyses was meditating his attack on Egypt, and doubting how he might best pass the desert, when Phanes arrived, and not only told him all the secrets of Amasis, but advised him also how the desert might be crossed. He counselled him to send an ambassador to the king of the Arabs, and ask him for safe–conduct through the region. Now the only entrance into Egypt is by this desert: the country from Phoenicia to the borders of the city of Cadytis belongs to the people called the Palaestine Syrians; from Cadytis, which it appears to me is a city almost as large as Sardis, the marts upon the coast till you reach Jenysus are the Arabian king's; after Jenysus the Syrians again come in, and extend to lake Serbonis, near the place where Mount Casius juts into the sea. At lake Serbonis where the tale goes that Typhon hid himself, Egypt begins5. From Phoenicia till Cadytis the land belongs to the Syrians called Palestinians. From Jenysus till the Serbonian marsh the inhabitants of the country are "the Syrian again", and from the Serbonian marsh the country is Egypt. From the phrase that "The Syrian again come in" it is obvious that it refers to the Syrians mentioned at the beginning of the paragraph, i. e. The Syrians called Palestinians. Herodotus' paragraph is therefore to be understood as follows: Phoenicia borders the country of the Syrian–Palestinians . From Phoenicia till Cadytis the land is that of the Syrian–Palestinians, Then a certain part of the country is inhabited by the Arabians, and then down to the borders of Egypt there are the Syrian–Palestinians again. We have no notion...

http://www.whowerethephoenicians.com/wp-content/uploads/book/phenicos_new (2)_p175-p180.pdf

 

[IndigoChild5559]

This is a PDF file about Herodotus.. He called it Syria-Palestina.

http://www.whowerethephoenicians.com/wp-content/uploads/book/phenicos_new (2)_p175-p180.pdf

This is a mistranslation. It is a fact that the Romans first used the term Palestine after the destruction of Jerusalem.

Are you sure you aren't getting your translation from Palestinian or Leftist sources?j

BTW, the 5th Century BC doesn't exactly represent the Roman Empire prior to the Jewish wars.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

This is a PDF file about Herodotus.. He called it Syria-Palestina.

http://www.whowerethephoenicians.com/wp-content/uploads/book/phenicos_new (2)_p175-p180.pdf

This is a mistranslation. It is a fact that the Romans first used the term Palestine after the destruction of Jerusalem.

Are you sure you aren't getting your translation from Palestinian or Leftist sources?

 

[sooda]

My concern is both historical and political. It is completely factual, and I am opposed to people rewriting history in the attempt to delegitimize the nation state of Israel.

It doesn't matter that I don't know a name for the greater territory, if one indeed existed. The claim was made that it was called Palestine in the day of Herod, and this is not true and I have given the historical explanation why it is not true.

Yes, the priesthood had become corrupt. So? They still performed their obligations.[/QUOTE]

Israel was a city state in Syria Palestine.


According to Herodotus, the lands that extend between Persia and Egypt are Syria–Palestine, Phoenicia and the Arabian region. Therefore, if Herodotus mentions the Israelites under another name, then it might be either under that of Syria–Palestine, or that of Phoenicia.

WHO WERE THE PHOENICIANS ACCORDING TO HERODOTUS AND …

According to Herodotus, the lands that extend between Persia and Egypt are Syria–Palestine, Phoenicia and the Arabian region. Therefore, if Herodotus mentions the Israelites under another name, then it might be either under that of Syria–Palestine, or that of Phoenicia.

WHO WERE THE PHOENICIANS ACCORDING TO HERODOTUS AND

http://www.whowerethephoenicians.com/wp-content/uploads/book/phenicos_new (2)_p175-p180.pdf


WHO WERE THE PHOENICIANS ACCORDING TO HERODOTUS AND DIODORUS SICULUS?

 

[sooda]

This is a mistranslation. It is a fact that the Romans first used the term Palestine after the destruction of Jerusalem.

Are you sure you aren't getting your translation from Palestinian or Leftist sources?j

BTW, the 5th Century BC doesn't exactly represent the Roman Empire prior to the Jewish wars.

Exactly.. This was long before Rome got involved.

http://www.whowerethephoenicians.com/wp-content/uploads/book/phenicos_new (2)_p175-p180.pdf

Herodotus was Greek and he was born in 484 BC in· Halicarnassus, Turkey.

 

[sooda]

The claim that Hadrian invented the term Palestine is right up there with a land without people for a people without land.

 

[metis]

Go ahead and answer this when you come back from your busy week. There is no rush.

Give me your one very BEST example of Jesus negating the letter of the Law and we'll discuss it.

IMHO, he never violated the Torah. Most of Oral Torah was set by that time, and he observed it and encouraged its observance. There was a small remainder of Oral Torah that was still in formation, and Jesus participated in the arguments about the interpretations (siding 99% with the school of Hillel). This is when you see him allowing healing on the Shabbat, allowing his disciples to pick grain on the Shabbat when they were hungry, etc.

You should be aware that the Rabbis teach that the essense of the Law is to love God and your neighbor as yourself -- Jesus was not original.

I think it should be very clear that Jesus went well beyond Hillel, plus I gave you a link to numerous verses that show Jesus' take on the Law was that it came to an end with John the Baptist and/or himself (there's a "variation"). Plus we know what happened after Jesus was gone with the apostles vis-a-vis the Law (Peter's vision that ended keeping of kosher). Or Paul's numerous statements on the Law that are found in what I linked you to.

Therefore, there's really nothing to discuss from my point of view as it should be clear.

But just a few quick items comes to mind: what about Jesus traveling from village to village and picking grain on Shabbos? or telling one to "Let the dead bury the dead" when his father dies? Etc.?

Anyhow, I'm moving on, so take care.

 

[oldbadger]

My concern is both historical and political. It is completely factual, and I am opposed to people rewriting history in the attempt to delegitimize the nation state of Israel.

It doesn't matter that I don't know a name for the greater territory, if one indeed existed. The claim was made that it was called Palestine in the day of Herod, and this is not true and I have given the historical explanation why it is not true.

Yes, the priesthood had become corrupt. So? They still performed their obligations.[/QUOTE]
On Historical studies most HJ students are not involved with the World today.

Tell me, would you approve of the title Israel for the whole collection of provinces once ruled by Herod?

You can't correct us and not support some term as a replacement.

What do you think of the other member's reference to Herodotus 500bc?

For you the title Palestine is clearly an upset, but you must be aware that for us, talking about circa AD30, 2000 years back, we mean no offence.

It might not be the same, but if you referred to my home 2000 years back as a bunch of pagans, you would be right, no offense. (Hmmmmm ... we still are). I

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes, the priesthood had become corrupt. So? They still performed their obligations.

Israel was a city state in Syria Palestine.[/quote]Surely you jest. A city-state is one city that comprises an entire nation. Israel has NEVER been a city-state. For exampe, during the second temple period, it was comprised of the entire subterritories of Judea, Samaria, and Gallilee, if not more, all ruled by a King. That this king was subject to the occupying empire of Rome is irrelevant.

According to Herodotus, the lands that extend between Persia and Egypt are Syria–Palestine, Phoenicia and the Arabian region. Therefore, if Herodotus mentions the Israelites under another name, then it might be either under that of Syria–Palestine, or that of Phoenicia.

The only other names Israelite are known by are Hebrews and Jews.

WHO WERE THE PHOENICIANS ACCORDING TO HERODOTUS AND …

I don't really care what Heroditus thought the Phoenicians were. We know now from genetic information that they were the descendants of the Canaanites. Amazing how they found a new homeland, how their culture reinvented itself, and how they thrived and became a force to be reckoned with.

It seems like you are basing EVERYTHING on Heroditus. Not wise.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Exactly.. This was long before Rome got involved.

http://www.whowerethephoenicians.com/wp-content/uploads/book/phenicos_new (2)_p175-p180.pdf

Herodotus was Greek and he was born in 484 BC in· Halicarnassus, Turkey.

And during the age of the Romans, it was not called Palestine until after the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Tell me, would you approve of the title Israel for the whole collection of provinces once ruled by Herod?

Yes. As in the days of old, the territory ruled by the King out of Jerusalem was known as Israel. The fact that this term was not in use at that time does not change the reality of the position.

 

[sooda]

Israel was a city state in Syria Palestine.

Surely you jest. A city-state is one city that comprises an entire nation. Israel has NEVER been a city-state. For exampe, during the second temple period, it was comprised of the entire subterritories of Judea, Samaria, and Gallilee, if not more, all ruled by a King. That this king was subject to the occupying empire of Rome is irrelevant.


The only other names Israelite are known by are Hebrews and Jews.

WHO WERE THE PHOENICIANS ACCORDING TO HERODOTUS AND …

I don't really care what Heroditus thought the Phoenicians were. We know now from genetic information that they were the descendants of the Canaanites. Amazing how they found a new homeland, how their culture reinvented itself, and how they thrived and became a force to be reckoned with.

It seems like you are basing EVERYTHING on Heroditus. Not wise.[/QUOTE]

I thought I had made that clear … that the Phoenicians were descended from North Coast Canaanites. Some of their poems show up as Psalms.

A city-state is a sovereign state that consists of a city and its dependent territories.

Modern city-states—namely, Qatar, Brunei, Kuwait, Bahrain, and Malta.

Here's a list of Canaanite City States

Caananite City-States

 

[IndigoChild5559]

A city-state is a sovereign state that consists of a city and its dependent territories.

Modern city-states—namely, Qatar, Brunei, Kuwait, Bahrain, and Malta.

Here's a list of Canaanite City States

Caananite City-States

A city state doesn't include other major cities. That would make every country with a capital city a city state which is ridiculous. You are getting further and further out in left field.

 

[sooda]

A city state doesn't include other major cities. That would make every country with a capital city a city state which is ridiculous. You are getting further and further out in left field.

Ancient Israel didn't include any major cities either.

Ancient Jerusalem was tiny .. and all of Palestine never had a population of over 600,000.. In fact, that's a stretch.

Ancient Jerusalem: The Village, the Town, the City - Biblical Archaeology Society

Look at the Canaanite City states I posted for you.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes. As in the days of old, the territory ruled by the King out of Jerusalem was known as Israel. The fact that this term was not in use at that time does not change the reality of the position.

I have often named the early 1st century collected (mainly) Jewish provinces as 'Israel', but of course some folks have wanted to correct me, naming this territory 'Palestine'.

And vice versa. In your case the initial lack of any other name was a new development.

And so it seems that my strictly historical searches and studies have been batted to right and left by various bunches of politically influenced folks who would argue that black is white if it could only help their cause in the present time.... in this case, two whole millenia after the events being discussed.

As long as you understand that I have absolutely no interest in anything but historical studies, then that is fine.