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Case Against Renewable Energy

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Just watched a TED related video by Michael Shellenberger, who talks about how windmills kill birds and the instability of solar power leads to a need for more natural gas power. He discusses the problem of disposing of toxic solar panels the relative expense of renewable infrastructure versus relying upon nuclear energy.

So what do you think about these things? Please take the time to watch the video if you can or skim it. Its about 17 minutes long. Are windmills and solar panel farms a mistake?

For reference here are some previous threads hosted here on RF where the topic of renewable energy has been discussed:
100% Renewable Energy Vision
Can alternative energy effectively replace fossil fuels?
Another Energy Thread
Compressing Air for Renewable Energy Storage

Here's the video:
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
So windmills ostensibly killing birds (why not just put some mesh around it or something? Seems like there’s a pretty easy solution either way) is bad? Sure I agree with such a premise. But I thought all the hippies were upset at fossil fuels for literally killing the planet? Or at least planet life.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Without watching the video, problem exist with every energy technology.
So the mere existence thereof doesn't defeat any single one.
The question is which are best, based upon economics, environmental
effects, strategic security, & function.

Looking at the video's title, it doesn't appear
to be a "case against renewable energy" though.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
Windmills DO kill birds. We call them 'bird quizenarts" around here...and we have a lot of windmill 'farms.' They are ecological disasters, quite frankly. Nothing can live where they are, and when they quite literally cover entire mountains, as they do here, the impact upon the local ecology is blatant.

....and believe me, putting mesh around them is not a viable option.

I don't know about the problems that solar farms have; we have a great many of those, too. Perhaps the problems that come with disposing of the old and worn out panels are huge. I don't know. I DO know that where they are, the poppies don't grow.

So...what do we do about it? Frankly, I don't know. Those of you who know me at all know that I'm not exactly 'left' on anything much. I am, however, for renewable energy and taking care of the planet we live on. When I see something with this level of unintended nasty consequences, I have to wonder about them.

Oh....and I do have solar panels on my roof. They have cut my electric bills to darned near nothing; in fact, some months I produce more electricity than I use. I LIKE that.

But I am having a few second and third thoughts about the gigantic solar and wind farms that are sprouting up all over the place out this way.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It is unfortunate that windmills kill a small proportion of birds, i wonder why the old style wind powered water pumps and flour mills didn't attract such attention?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Just watched a TED related video by Michael Shellenberger, who talks about how windmills kill birds and the instability of solar power leads to a need for more natural gas power. He discusses the problem of disposing of toxic solar panels the relative expense of renewable infrastructure versus relying upon nuclear energy.

So what do you think about these things? Please take the time to watch the video if you can or skim it. Its about 17 minutes long. Are windmills and solar panel farms a mistake?

For reference here are some previous threads hosted here on RF where the topic of renewable energy has been discussed:
100% Renewable Energy Vision
Can alternative energy effectively replace fossil fuels?
Another Energy Thread
Compressing Air for Renewable Energy Storage

Here's the video:
I think renewable energy is a great thing but the implementation has been so short-sighted and rushed that it really comes as no surprise that problems and issues would naturally present itself simply because people don't conduct impact studies and engage in long-term trials anymore.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I think renewable energy is a great thing but the implementation has been so short-sighted and rushed that it really comes as no surprise that problems and issues would naturally present itself simply because people don't conduct impact studies and engage in long-term trials anymore.

They never did. Take lead in petrol, it cured an immediate problem but is still killing people today
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Renewable energy comes in many forms, and that is its strength.
the oldest is perhaps Hydro power, which has produced vast quantities of power for America for years.
And is also used via Archimedes screws in small local river projects. ( we have one near me in Saddleworth.)

It is the same national power distribution grids that make conventional carbon based power sources viable. That also make renewable resources viable, by spreading the load through the entire system. Sources come on and go off line all the time.
Just as wind blows hard in some places and hardly at all in other places and time, and tides ebb and flow. Just as the sun shines during the day but not at night. It is possible that we will never be able to rely on renewable energy for 100% of our energy 100% of the time, but we will perhaps only need fossil fuel to make up a small percentage as a balance.

The new infrastructure of renewable energy is providing vast amounts of work and opportunities for startup companies to enter the energy fields. It is also opening up huge investment opportunities which are already producing massive new income streams and profits to the business world.

Just as in the past, Birds learn to avoid the dangers of man made structures, while other creature welcome new sources of bird kill.
That is the way nature works.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Just watched a TED related video by Michael Shellenberger, who talks about how windmills kill birds and the instability of solar power leads to a need for more natural gas power. He discusses the problem of disposing of toxic solar panels the relative expense of renewable infrastructure versus relying upon nuclear energy.

I am always skeptical of those hawking the number of birds killed by windmills. What are the numbers of birds killed by the toxins released by burning coal or other fossil fuels? And sure, solar energy production is - amazingly - dependent on sunshine. How about battery tech?
How about a combination of answers, rather than the false dichotomies that, for example, the pro-coal people spit out?
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I am always skeptical of those hawking the number of birds killed by windmills. What are the numbers of birds killed by the toxins released by burning coal or other fossil fuels? And sure, solar energy production is - amazingly - dependent on sunshine. How about battery tech?
How about a combination of answers, rather than the false dichotomies that, for example, the pro-coal people spit out?

How many birds are killed by cars driven by protesters against wind farms?
Or die because they flew into their house windows?
I don't see them giving up their cars or living in windowless houses.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
It is unfortunate that windmills kill a small proportion of birds, i wonder why the old style wind powered water pumps and flour mills didn't attract such attention?

How about because, in ones and twos, they weren't all that destructive? Birds can avoid windmills that occur in singletons, or have space enough between them. It is only when they are closely spaced together and cover literally square miles that they become problematic.

One windfarm out this way was situated in a migratory path between two mountains. Altamont pass, in northern California, placed there because the wind is dependable, strong and no humans would want anything to do with the area, has caused havoc . Tens of thousands of bird strikes have occurred there alone since it was installed.

California condors, still incredibly endangered, (there are only 230 condors in the wild) are in special danger. So are bald and golden eagles. The problem for the industry is that it is extremely illegal, even unintentionally, to kill one. Huge fines can be, and are, leveled at windfarm owners when one has a fatal encounter with one of their turbines.

So...what to do? Here's what NOT to do; pretend that the problem isn't real, that windfarms don't really kill that many birds (they do) Doing that is, as far as I can see, as short sighted and illogical as pretending that the globe isn't warming or that the magnetic poles aren't in the process of flipping or that Los Angeles isn't a WHOLE lot less smoggy than it was in 1960.

What I do see is that those who claim that windfarms aren't all THAT destructive are the same people who criticize those who are 'global warming deniers" for believing that humans are not solely responsible for it. They are driven by political agendas and aren't actually thinking about the science. Windfarms ARE that destructive. Really. Denying that a problem exists means that the problem won't ever get solved.

On the other hand, windfarm owners do seem to be a bit more concerned about the problem than their critics think. They are attempting many different ways of avoiding bird kills, like radar that warn of large flocks coming their way in time to shut the turbines down, or painting them different colors in order to avoid attracting birds, or installing UV lights to deter bats...in the case of the California Condor, which is at risk mostly in southern California, the very big farms in the Tehachapi mountains have systems which track the condors. Right now almost all condors have GPS chips (hey, most of 'em have had to have been hand-raised before being released into the wild). When the windfarm detects that one is within two miles of the turbines, everything gets shut down..takes two minutes. That solution won't work with most birds, though, and once condors are reproducing reliably in the wild, it won't work for them, either. The best solution seems to be...putting the farms where the birds aren't. Which means that mountain passes in the middle of migratory paths are a Bad Idea. Putting them in wetlands, or just offshore? Also a Bad Idea. According to the Audobon Society, most of these attempts are not working really well, but at least the people causing the problem are working to solve it. That's actually rather refreshing.

And, at least, the windfarm folks are working on the problem rather than denying that it exists. I wish that the far left 'green folks' would do the same. Being hypocrites won't solve the problem of energy production OR protect the ecology.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
It is unfortunate that windmills kill a small proportion of birds, i wonder why the old style wind powered water pumps and flour mills didn't attract such attention?

Probably because they are much smaller and not
nearly so many of them.

Windmills pumping water for cattle on western ranches
is scenic, the sounds they make pleasant.

Not so with wind farms.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Probably because they are much smaller and not
nearly so many of them.

Windmills pumping water for cattle on western ranches
is scenic, the sounds they make pleasant.

Not so with wind farms.
If massive bird death is necessary for renewable energy, I can live with it.
Look at one alternative problem....nuclear waste.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
How many birds are killed by cars driven by protesters against wind farms?
Or die because they flew into their house windows?
I don't see them giving up their cars or living in windowless houses.

Birds and wildlife of all sorts are massacred in
enormous numbers by cars both directly and indirectly.

Bird-window btw- We had a woodpecker pounding
on the house one year. Chase it, it comes back.
So, I took paper plates, drew big eyes on them with
marker. The bird never came back.

Same works with birds attacking or flying into windows.

The neighbour thought it was some sort of "Oriental"
thing against spirits. :D
 

Audie

Veteran Member
If massive bird death is necessary for renewable energy, I can live with it.
Look at one alternative problem....nuclear waste.


"We can". Yeah, I guess.
Have you red about declining insect populations
world wide?
Somehow I do not have a good feeling about that.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
"We can". Yeah, I guess.
Have you red about declining insect populations
world wide?
Somehow I do not have a good feeling about that.
Those aren't due to windmills though.
I blame our covering the planet with pavement, farms, cities & law offices.
We should attack that last one first.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Birds and wildlife of all sorts are massacred in
enormous numbers by cars both directly and indirectly.

Bird-window btw- We had a woodpecker pounding
on the house one year. Chase it, it comes back.
So, I took paper plates, drew big eyes on them with
marker. The bird never came back.

Same works with birds attacking or flying into windows.

The neighbour thought it was some sort of "Oriental"
thing against spirits. :D

Well isn't it?:glomp2:
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
How about because, in ones and twos, they weren't all that destructive? Birds can avoid windmills that occur in singletons, or have space enough between them. It is only when they are closely spaced together and cover literally square miles that they become problematic.

I assume you have never been to Holland?

Perhaps it was because the "Burn fossil fuels now and screw green energy brigade" didnt exist back them


One windfarm out this way was situated in a migratory path between two mountains. Altamont pass, in northern California, placed there because the wind is dependable, strong and no humans would want anything to do with the area, has caused havoc . Tens of thousands of bird strikes have occurred there alone since it was installed.

Being bloody stupid hardly qualifies as typical, most wind farm design takes migration paths into account.

So...what to do? Here's what NOT to do; pretend that the problem isn't real, that windfarms don't really kill that many birds (they do) Doing that is, as far as I can see, as short sighted and illogical as pretending that the globe isn't warming or that the magnetic poles aren't in the process of flipping or that Los Angeles isn't a WHOLE lot less smoggy than it was in 1960.

Who is pretending, how about NOT ignoring the fact that i have children who will have children of their own in a world screwed by relying on fossil fuel.

What I do see is that those who claim that windfarms aren't all THAT destructive are the same people who criticize those who are 'global warming deniers" for believing that humans are not solely responsible for it. They are driven by political agendas and aren't actually thinking about the science. Windfarms ARE that destructive. Really. Denying that a problem exists means that the problem won't ever get solved.

What i see is that green energy is the better of 2 rapists.

Yes windfarms can be destructive to wildlife, fossil fuel is destructive to the world.

On the other hand, windfarm owners do seem to be a bit more concerned about the problem than their critics think....

Didnt read this paragraph, too much text in one block for me


And, at least, the windfarm folks are working on the problem rather than denying that it exists. I wish that the far left 'green folks' would do the same. Being hypocrites won't solve the problem of energy production OR protect the ecology.

And i wish the far right would admit the world is in trouble rather than milking it more and more to increase profits at the expense of the future
 
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