Mosaic law still present?

[sooda]

I think influenced would be a much better word.

These guys were certainly opposed to Greek influences.

Meet the Hasmoneans: A brief history of a violent epoch

The Herodian Dynasty that would rule Judea over the next century had Hasmonean blood through Mariamne, who bore Herod two sons and two daughters. In their assimilation, they were a far, far cry from the family of priests from Modiin who, centuries before, had raised the banner of revolt against the Hellenization of Judea.

 

[metis]

All the competing versions of Oral Torah built a fence. Some fences were so far from the Torah that they placed a heavy burden on people, and some were closer in.

Exactly, but which branch had the supposed correct Oral Law [Tradition] is conjectural.

The phrase "to build a fence around the Torah" is itself part of Oral Torah.

That also is debatable and subject to discussion. Part of it, such as the ritual slaughter of animals seems set through the Oral Law, but there are so many fences it's quite a leap to assume that all of them were found in the Oral Law, especially since decisions were gradual in development, and the Talmud reflects some vacillation on the end result, at least partially due to the merging of the two Talmuds.

However, with that being said, Torah does allow for mandated decisions post-Torah.

However, Hillel was only liberal *when compared to Shammai. Objectively both were not liberal.

The school of Hillel built in some wiggle room as he felt that the application of the Law has to reflect the intent of the Law, so sometimes the letter of the Law may not do that.

Jesus, btw, was also school of Hillel. It was the school of Shammai, which ruled the Sanhedrin, with which he argued.

Ya, but Jesus went well beyond Hillel, as the latter certainly would not agree with Jesus' watering down and then walking away from the Law, which is what happened. Even though Hillel felt the application of the Law could be somewhat flexible, he still felt that the letter of the Law could not be ignored.

Anyhow, good discussion but I do have to end my participation because I have a very busy weekend and week.

Take care.

 

[metis]

We must be thinking of two different arrest. Paul called himself a "citizen" of Rome, apparently calling on Caesar to save his sorry self. What would Roman soldiers care about Paul being a Pharisee? That was a game played later on the Jews, not the Romans. You will have to remind me where Roman solders arrested Paul, and Paul thinks being a Pharisee will help one iota with Roman soldiers.

That wasn't the point I was making. What is the point is that Paul identifies himself as being a Pharisee.

 

[sooda]

At the end of his third missionary journey Paul returned to Jerusalem ….

Paul's Two-Year Roman Imprisonment

This act of benevolence hardly appeased the Jews. Paul had been seen in the city with Trophimus, a Gentile from Ephesus, and so the rumor quickly spread that the apostle had taken “Greeks” into the temple and “defiled this holy place” (Acts 21:28)—which was a capital offense. Before long, the city was aflame with the “lynch-him” mentality. Paul’s life was saved only when Roman officials intervened and took him to a place of safety.

Eventually, under heavy guard (470 soldiers; Acts 23:23), the apostle was taken to Caesarea over on the coast, where he was confined in Herod’s palace. Over some period of time, Paul was subjected to a series of interrogations. Finally, after two years had lapsed, and it appeared that “justice delayed is justice denied,” the noble preacher concluded that he would never receive a fair hearing under the present circumstances. And so, exercising his right as a Roman citizen, he appealed his case to Caesar (Acts 25:11-12).

The harrowing voyage to Rome is graphically detailed by Luke in Acts 27:1-28:16. This is the most remarkable account of ancient sea navigation in the annals of history. Incidentally, the accuracy of Luke’s record is a striking example of the precision of the biblical narrative.

 

[2ndpillar]

That wasn't the point I was making. What is the point is that Paul identifies himself as being a Pharisee.

Paul's use of double speak, was one to deceive the people (Jeremiah 48:10). He was a Roman to the solders, and a Pharisee to the Jews, and a Gentile to the Gentiles. One either follows the Jewish law, and can be considered a Pharisee, or they do not, and can be considered among the Gentiles. Paul was arrested supposedly to for "preaching against our people and the Law" (Acts 21:28), and for "telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs" (Acts 21:21) & Romans 2:26. Do Paul's followers think they are baptized in the Spirit, and then therefore do not need to be baptized in the flesh? Is not one a physical representation of the other?

King James Bible Jeremiah 48:10
Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.

Romans 2:26 So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?

 

[oldbadger]

The Decapolis was Greek. How could they have been controlled by Judah?

Decapolis Area

They were part Pagan, part Jewish.
They were NOT controlled by Judah. The Roman Prefect only controlled Idumea, Samaria and Judah.
Herod Antipas and Hero's Philip controlled all other areas.

Have you studied all this?

 

[sooda]

Paul's use of double speak, was one to deceive the people (Jeremiah 48:10). He was a Roman to the solders, and a Pharisee to the Jews, and a Gentile to the Gentiles. One either follows the Jewish law, and can be considered a Pharisee, or they do not, and can be considered among the Gentiles. Paul was arrested supposedly to for "preaching against our people and the Law" (Acts 21:28), and for "telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs" (Acts 21:21) & Romans 2:26. Do Paul's followers think they are baptized in the Spirit, and then therefore do not need to be baptized in the flesh? Is not one a physical representation of the other?

King James Bible Jeremiah 48:10
Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.

Romans 2:26 So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?

Paul was arrested because the Jews accused him of taking a Greek into the Temple,

 

[sooda]

They were part Pagan, part Jewish.
They were NOT controlled by Judah. The Roman Prefect only controlled Idumea, Samaria and Judah.
Herod Antipas and Hero's Philip controlled all other areas.

Have you studied all this?

Not only studied.. been there a few times. Jesus had more freedom of movement around Galilee and the Decapolis cities.

 

[oldbadger]

There was no territory known as Palestine until after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. It was the Roman tactic to try to get the world to forget that Judea ever existed.

You are fixated upon Judea. Trachonitis, Gaulanitus, Gallilee, Decapolis, Idumea, Judea, Perea, and even Samaria were all included as the lands previously ruled by Herod. Please to give a title for them all. ????

 

[oldbadger]

Not only studied.. been there a few times. Jesus had more freedom of movement around Galilee and the Decapolis cities.

Of course he did....... He was a Galilean.
He only went to Jerusalem once during his mission according to G Mark. John didn't have a clue, was not the disciple, never witnessed anything

 

[2ndpillar]

Paul was arrested because the Jews accused him of taking a Greek into the Temple,

One thing among many. He was taken into custody/arrested because the Jews were trying to "kill him", and it was throwing Jerusalem "in confusion" (Acts 21:31)

Acts 21:28 shouting, "Fellow Israelites, help us! This is the man who teaches everyone everywhere against our people and our law and this place. And besides, he has brought Greeks into the temple and defiled this holy place."

 

[2ndpillar]

You are fixated upon Judea. Trachonitis, Gaulanitus, Gallilee, Decapolis, Idumea, Judea, Perea, and even Samaria were all included as the lands previously ruled by Herod. Please to give a title for them all. ????

It wouldn't be Palestine.

A derivitave of the name Palestine first appears in Greek literature in the 5th Century BCE when the historian Herodotus called the area Palaistin?(Greek - Παλαιστ?νη). In the 2nd century CE, the Romans crushed the revolt of Shimon Bar Kokhba (132 CE), during which Jerusalem and Judea were regained and the area of Judea was renamed Palaestina in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel.

Under the Ottoman Empire (1517-1917), the term Palestine was used as a general term to describe the land south of Syria; it was not an official designation. In fact, many Ottomans and Arabs who lived in Palestine during this time period referred to the area as Southern Syria and not as Palestine.

After World War I, the name Palestine was applied to the territory that was placed under British Mandate; this area included not only present-day Israel but also present-day Jordan.

Leading up to Israel's independence in 1948, it was common for the international press to label Jews, not Arabs, living in the mandate as Palestinians. It was not until years after Israeli independence that the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were called Palestinians.
Origin of "Palestine"

 

[sooda]

It wouldn't be Palestine.

A derivitave of the name Palestine first appears in Greek literature in the 5th Century BCE when the historian Herodotus called the area Palaistin?(Greek - Παλαιστ?νη). In the 2nd century CE, the Romans crushed the revolt of Shimon Bar Kokhba (132 CE), during which Jerusalem and Judea were regained and the area of Judea was renamed Palaestina in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel.

Under the Ottoman Empire (1517-1917), the term Palestine was used as a general term to describe the land south of Syria; it was not an official designation. In fact, many Ottomans and Arabs who lived in Palestine during this time period referred to the area as Southern Syria and not as Palestine.

After World War I, the name Palestine was applied to the territory that was placed under British Mandate; this area included not only present-day Israel but also present-day Jordan.

Leading up to Israel's independence in 1948, it was common for the international press to label Jews, not Arabs, living in the mandate as Palestinians. It was not until years after Israeli independence that the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were called Palestinians.
Origin of "Palestine"

They were called Palestinians by 1952..

 

[oldbadger]

It wouldn't be Palestine.

A derivitave of the name Palestine first appears in Greek literature in the 5th Century BCE when the historian Herodotus called the area Palaistin?(Greek - Παλαιστ?νη). In the 2nd century CE, the Romans crushed the revolt of Shimon Bar Kokhba (132 CE), during which Jerusalem and Judea were regained and the area of Judea was renamed Palaestina in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel.

Under the Ottoman Empire (1517-1917), the term Palestine was used as a general term to describe the land south of Syria; it was not an official designation. In fact, many Ottomans and Arabs who lived in Palestine during this time period referred to the area as Southern Syria and not as Palestine.

After World War I, the name Palestine was applied to the territory that was placed under British Mandate; this area included not only present-day Israel but also present-day Jordan.

Leading up to Israel's independence in 1948, it was common for the international press to label Jews, not Arabs, living in the mandate as Palestinians. It was not until years after Israeli independence that the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were called Palestinians.
Origin of "Palestine"

Indeed, the whole group of territories controlled by Philip, Antipas and Pilate may have been called Israel?

 

[2ndpillar]

b

Of course he did....... He was a Galilean.
He only went to Jerusalem once during his mission according to G Mark. John didn't have a clue, was not the disciple, never witnessed anything

Are you confusing "John" with "Luke" (Luke 1:1-3), who supposedly witnessed nothing, and who was supposedly the author of Acts. And who exactly was Mark? Was he the 13th apostle? Did he witness anything, or was he like Luke, a non witness?

 

[2ndpillar]

Indeed, the whole group of territories controlled by Philip, Antipas and Pilate may have been called Israel?

Called "Israel" by whom? The land given to Judah was called Judea, after the name of Yehudah/Judah.

Judea:
The name originates from the Hebrew name Yehudah, a son of the Jewish patriarch Jacob/Israel, and Yehudah's progeny forming the biblical Israelite tribe of Judah (Yehudah) and later the associated Kingdom of Judah
judea - Bing

 

[oldbadger]

b


Are you confusing "John" with "Luke" (Luke 1:1-3), who supposedly witnessed nothing, and who was supposedly the author of Acts. And who exactly was Mark? Was he the 13th apostle? Did he witness anything, or was he like Luke, a non witness?

No. Indeed, Luke was no witness. But John was not the disciple, not a witness.... Look at how muddled his timeline of events was.
Matthew copied Mark, Q, and one other report, so he may not have been a disciple either.
But GMark was probably the memoirs of Cephas, written by the guy who followed him, ran at the arrest, etc

 

[oldbadger]

No. Indeed, Luke was no witness. But John was not the disciple, not a witness.... Look at how muddled his timeline of events was.
Matthew copied Mark, Q, and one other report, so he may not have been a disciple either.
But GMark was probably the memoirs of Cephas, written by the guy who followed him, ran at the arrest, etc

 

[oldbadger]

Called "Israel" by whom? The land given to Judah was called Judea, after the name of Yehudah/Judah.

Judea:
The name originates from the Hebrew name Yehudah, a son of the Jewish patriarch Jacob/Israel, and Yehudah's progeny forming the biblical Israelite tribe of Judah (Yehudah) and later the associated Kingdom of Judah
judea - Bing

I seek a name for the provinces controlled by Pilate, Antipas and Philip.......
Most Bible maps call them either Israel or Palestine.
Samaria was included on Pilate's control as was Idumea. The others all controlled by Antipas, Philip, and possibly a sister.

 

[oldbadger]

There was no territory known as Palestine until after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. It was the Roman tactic to try to get the world to forget that Judea ever existed.

Once upon a time there was a powerful ruler called Herod-the-Great, who died in 4BC. His lands were split up and control was handed to Antipas (quarter), Philip (quarter) and Archelaus (half).

What was the name of this whole land during Herod the Great's rule?

Do you know?