Marian Shrines

[GoodbyeDave]

This is a question for Catholic, Orthodox, or Anglican Christians — no irrelevant posts please.

When Pope John Paul II made a pilgrimage to the shrine of the Virgin of Częstochowa, a journalist asked why he couldn't pray to Mary in Rome. Now whether the question was innocent or malicious, there are some real points here.

I can see that a place where a hierophany has occurred may be sacred, like Lourdes, but in the case of Częstochowa the sanctity relates to one icon rather than another.

Even where a place is sacred on the basis of a vision, there are instances of what might be called transfer to other places. In England, we have the shrine at Walsingham but how does that explain explain shrines of Our Lady of Walsingham in the USA? And why is the patron saint of Mexico Our Lady of Guadalupe, rather than "of Mexico" or "of Tepeyac"?

How do you choose a shrine for a pilgrimage? In Spain, how would you decide between Guadalupe and Montserrat?

There are several theologically interesting points here which I hope some-one can explain.

 

[whirlingmerc]

This is a question for Catholic, Orthodox, or Anglican Christians — no irrelevant posts please.

When Pope John Paul II made a pilgrimage to the shrine of the Virgin of Częstochowa, a journalist asked why he couldn't pray to Mary in Rome. Now whether the question was innocent or malicious, there are some real points here.

I can see that a place where a hierophany has occurred may be sacred, like Lourdes, but in the case of Częstochowa the sanctity relates to one icon rather than another.

Even where a place is sacred on the basis of a vision, there are instances of what might be called transfer to other places. In England, we have the shrine at Walsingham but how does that explain explain shrines of Our Lady of Walsingham in the USA? And why is the patron saint of Mexico Our Lady of Guadalupe, rather than "of Mexico" or "of Tepeyac"?

How do you choose a shrine for a pilgrimage? In Spain, how would you decide between Guadalupe and Montserrat?

There are several theologically interesting points here which I hope some-one can explain.

I have to caution that some of these practices to be a bit too much like a Jesus substitute
and a distraction from the gospel.

The Bible leaves Mary praying in the upper room in the book of Acts and we might be better served doing the same.

 

[whirlingmerc]

I did grow up Catholic and as I recall the belief is that you can never become unCatholic.

God sees the intentions of the heart and is everywhere present and all knowing. God certainly hears prayers and the intentions of the heart behind them. Mary not being omniscient or ever present would never 'hear a prayer' as God would and Biblically the great high priest is Jesus who is also gets the title paraclete/helper along with the Holy Spirit in 1 John and John

 

[syo]

How do you choose a shrine for a pilgrimage?

I hope I understood the question right.

We humans after the fruit commited sin. So the world we live in is tempted by satan all the time. Now, there are some people that have defeated satan and are free of sin however is that possible. These people are blessed by God and the Holy Spirit dwells in them. These blessed people are close to God. Us the sinners try our best to reach God. So we try to be free from sin and come close to God. Shrines that are connected somehow to a blessed person (like Mary) are like lighthouses that guide us to God. By visiting and praying at a shrine where the holy Spirit dwells, we come close to God.

I really hope I'm not offtopic.

 

[whirlingmerc]

This is a question for Catholic, Orthodox, or Anglican Christians — no irrelevant posts please.

When Pope John Paul II made a pilgrimage to the shrine of the Virgin of Częstochowa, a journalist asked why he couldn't pray to Mary in Rome. Now whether the question was innocent or malicious, there are some real points here.

I can see that a place where a hierophany has occurred may be sacred, like Lourdes, but in the case of Częstochowa the sanctity relates to one icon rather than another.

Even where a place is sacred on the basis of a vision, there are instances of what might be called transfer to other places. In England, we have the shrine at Walsingham but how does that explain explain shrines of Our Lady of Walsingham in the USA? And why is the patron saint of Mexico Our Lady of Guadalupe, rather than "of Mexico" or "of Tepeyac"?

How do you choose a shrine for a pilgrimage? In Spain, how would you decide between Guadalupe and Montserrat?

There are several theologically interesting points here which I hope some-one can explain.

I think Jesus words to the woman at the well in John 4 says it all - neither in this place or that place but in spirit and in truth. The substance is 'in spirit and in truth'

 

[pearl]

How do you choose a shrine for a pilgrimage? In Spain, how would you decide between Guadalupe and Montserrat?

I suspect that ones culture may influence the choice.
When the Church considers the long history of Marian devotion it rejoices at the continuity of the element of cult which it shows, but it does not bind itself to any particular expression of an individual cultural epoch or to the particular anthropological ideas underlying such expressions. The Church understands that certain outward religious expressions, while perfectly valid in themselves, may be less suitable to men and women of different ages and cultures.
Popular piety has always been interested in extraordinary happenings and events that are not infrequently connected with private revelations. While not confined to Marian piety alone, this phenomenon is particularly involved with "apparitions" and "messages".

Throughout the ages, there have been so-called private revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith and there is no requirement to believe them. And while some scoff at the idea, looking with disdain on things like
touching statues, making the pilgrimage to a shrine, and walking the way of the Cross are a deep part of faith in the fleshiness of the Word. A little intellectual humility in the presence of the faith of the "unlettered"(Irenaeus) is necessary for us.

As for our Lady of Gudalupe, the original vision in connection with the conquest of the New World, this devotion to Mary is associated with the acceptance of the Christian gospel by Mexican Indians. The Mary of Guadalupe was portrayed in the ancient garb of the mother of the deities whom the Indians had worshiped before Christianity.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

I hope I understood the question right.

Actually you haven't — I understand the reason for Marian devotion and for the consideration of some places as holy but wanted certain details cleared up — but thank you for making a genuine effort to help.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

I suspect that ones culture may influence the choice.

I presume this is to answer the question about choosing between Montserrat and Guadalupe? But is there any theological reason?

As for our Lady of Guadalupe … this devotion to Mary is associated with the acceptance of the Christian gospel by Mexican Indians.

In Mexico yes, but not in Spain. So why is the Mexican cult "of Guadalupe" rather than "of Mexico"?

Your defence of the "unlettered" and the statement that one is not obliged to believe in Marian visions sounds a bit grudging. Personally, those devotions are the parts of your religion which I can actually agree with! But this might take my own thread off-topic.

 

[Cooky]

There is no evidence that praying to anyone other than God will help anyone and nothing in the Bible talks about praying to anyone else. These are false practices invented by the church.

I Don't see anything wrong with worshipping the mother of God. Basically, Mary is God.

 

[Cooky]

This is a question for Catholic, Orthodox, or Anglican Christians — no irrelevant posts please.

When Pope John Paul II made a pilgrimage to the shrine of the Virgin of Częstochowa, a journalist asked why he couldn't pray to Mary in Rome. Now whether the question was innocent or malicious, there are some real points here.

I can see that a place where a hierophany has occurred may be sacred, like Lourdes, but in the case of Częstochowa the sanctity relates to one icon rather than another.

Even where a place is sacred on the basis of a vision, there are instances of what might be called transfer to other places. In England, we have the shrine at Walsingham but how does that explain explain shrines of Our Lady of Walsingham in the USA? And why is the patron saint of Mexico Our Lady of Guadalupe, rather than "of Mexico" or "of Tepeyac"?

How do you choose a shrine for a pilgrimage? In Spain, how would you decide between Guadalupe and Montserrat?

There are several theologically interesting points here which I hope some-one can explain.

Each statue has special powers. It just depends on what powers you're looking to obtain.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I Don't see anything wrong with worshipping the mother of God. Basically, Mary is God.

So now God is not a trinity but a group of four. Father, Son, Holy Spirit and Mary.My mother is not me so why would God's mother be God. If anything she might be called God's wife because she gave birth to his son.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Each statue has special powers. It just depends on what powers you're looking to obtain.

Magic statues? I thought Catholics did not worship statues. But they believe they have special powers?

 

[Cooky]

I have to caution that some of these practices to be a bit too much like a Jesus substitute
and a distraction from the gospel.

The Bible leaves Mary praying in the upper room in the book of Acts and we might be better served doing the same.

What's a "gospel"..?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Magic statues? I thought Catholics did not worship statues. But they believe they have special powers?

They don't. They can be blessed and become holy items that way, though. But the holiness is still coming from God, not the statue.

 

[pearl]

In Mexico yes, but not in Spain. So why is the Mexican cult "of Guadalupe" rather than "of Mexico"?

Guadalupe belongs to Mexico does it not?

I presume this is to answer the question about choosing between Montserrat and Guadalupe? But is there any theological reason?

Mary in contemporary and global perspective

https://ejournals.bcedu/ojs/index.php/ctsa/article/download/.../4657


the theology of the doctrind of the immaculate heart of mary

https://ejournals.bc.edu/ojs/index.php/ctsa/article/download/.../1870

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Thank you for the references. Actually they are more a summary of what the conference discussions focused on than what the participants actually said. But tomorrow I'm off to the London Library (where I should have started) and I see they have some books that might be helpful.

Incidentally, the places in Mexico called Guadalupe are all named after the place in Spain.

 

[metis]

Mary not being omniscient or ever present would never 'hear a prayer' as God would and Biblically the great high priest is Jesus who is also gets the title paraclete/helper along with the Holy Spirit in 1 John and John

As a one-and-out side-bar, how could one possibly know that as there's the belief in even the early Church about "the communion of saints", which involved both the living saints and the ones who had "passed over"?

The above all too much reminds me of Jerry Falwell's assertion that God doesn't hear the prayer of a Jew.