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Is it true?

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is your faith speaking @Tony Bristow-Stagg - not supported by the gist of this thread

It was the OP that brought up the point about falability and thus I addressed this specific point.

As to what metaphors and truths are contained in the passage posted, time will unfold some and some we may never find.

Personally I like the Spiritual Metephor, but Bahau'llah has also said that for the seventy hidden meanings, there is one outward material reality. Thus I do not discount that science will find something in the future, in fact personally I am sure they will.

If that is wrong, God loves laughter.

Regards Tony
 

ManSinha

Well-Known Member
To which Infalliable is applicable to the OP.

I say, we have yet to understand a lot about what Baha'ullah said and I discount no possibility as to the quote you posted. To be swayed either way by current popular belief, would be very unwise in my opinion.

Science has a lot to learn. Faith still has a lot of growing to do.

The infallibility of Baha'u'llah is clear as the non day sun in the writings. This is hard for a lot of Baha'i, because it appears science is contradicting what Baha'u'llah has offered. The scientific mind is far from working in harmony and far from discovering much at all, really science has just been born.

Regards Tony


You are going down a path that will only bring more heartache

1. That a human - no matter who he said he was - is infallible - is largely incorrect -
2. Taking established science and making statements such as "it is new" etc only diminishes your credibility and marks you as someone that would prefer to support faith even when presented evidence to the contrary - what difference between yourself and others that insist non believers will be struck down on the day of Resurrection?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You are going down a path that will only bring more heartache

1. That a human - no matter who he said he was - is infallible - is largely incorrect -
2. Taking established science and making statements such as "it is new" etc only diminishes your credibility and marks you as someone that would prefer to support faith even when presented evidence to the contrary - what difference between yourself and others that insist non believers will be struck down on the day of Resurrection?

I just see it says I do not know much, I am happy to wear that badge.

Faith is the robe we cling to,

"....Thou seest me, O my God, holding to Thy Name, the Most Holy, the Most Luminous, the Most Mighty, the Most Great, the Most Exalted, the Most Glorious, and clinging to the hem of the robe to which have clung all in this world and in the world to come....."

Regards Tony
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I think it’s clear that copper is the ungodliness in the world today and what Baha’u’llah is saying is that the Elixir Of His Word can transmute it into a Golden society of peace and unity. We believe all the Divine Teachers are infallible.

“The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it? Is it within human power, ( Baha’u’llah - Gleanings)

“These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men” (Gleanings)

“God guides men through a Mouthpiece, a human being, a Prophet, infallible and unerring” (Shoghi Effendi)
 
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ManSinha

Well-Known Member
We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician

Quite a dystopian view of the world -

od guides men through a Mouthpiece, a human being, a Prophet, infallible and unerring” (Shoghi Effendi)

the whole theory of Divine Revelation rests on the infallibility of the Prophet, be He Christ, Muhammad, Bahá’u’lláh, or one of the others (Shoghi Effendi)

According to the Bahai Writings Baha’u’llah is infallible as is Buddha, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab and Jesus. They are perfect, infallible and error free.


Says the grandson of the person in question - bias much?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Quite a dystopian view of the world -




Says the grandson of the person in question - bias much?

I think we all want what’s best for our world and planet. The Elixir mentioned is referring primarily to the unity of mankind through the elimination of prejudices of all kinds and the acceptance that we are one human family all equal to one another.
 

ManSinha

Well-Known Member
I think we all want what’s best for our world and planet. The Elixir mentioned is referring primarily to the unity of mankind through the elimination of prejudices of all kinds and the acceptance that we are one human family all equal to one another.


Yeah -- you say that but then at least my interpretation is that you (or the teachings you subscribe to) see the world as a dark, dismal, tortured and sick place and only your prophet is the Hakim with the requisite medication - kinda contradicts the "we are all one human family" statement - provide me with one statement from the Kitab-1-Aqdas where contemporary non-Baha'i writings or teachings were incorporated unaltered -
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
I quote from "Kitab-i-Iqan" or the "Book of Certitude" written by Bahaullah:

“For instance, consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold. There are some, however, who maintain that copper itself is gold, which by becoming solidified is in a diseased condition, and hath not therefore reached its own state.

Be that as it may, the real elixir will, in one instant, cause the substance of copper to attain the state of gold, and will traverse the seventy-year stages in a single moment. Could this gold be called copper? Could it be claimed that it hath not attained the state of gold, whilst the touchstone is at hand to assay it and distinguish it from copper?”*

Is it true, please?

Thread open to believers of religion and non-believers.

Regards

_____________

*Page 40 of 72 of English Translation and or Page 132 of 231 of Arabic Translation

It is abstractly metaphorically, alchemically true.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Yeah -- you say that but then at least my interpretation is that you (or the teachings you subscribe to) see the world as a dark, dismal, tortured and sick place and only your prophet is the Hakim with the requisite medication - kinda contradicts the "we are all one human family" statement - provide me with one statement from the Kitab-1-Aqdas where contemporary non-Baha'i writings or teachings were incorporated unaltered -


I think that is relative if one lives in comfort shielded from all the suffering out there then they might take that view.

Today there was an attack on two Mosques in NZ while people were praying resulting in more than 40 dead and you say we don’t have problems? Baha’u’llah is spot on.

And what do you think caused that? Anti-Muslim sentiment spread by sites like Jihad Watch and Religion of Peace who demonize people and then some crazies start to murder. The same thing that Mullas do in Mosques incite people against each other. We need to join together to promote the oneness of all people not demonize and create more hostility and prejudice.

So Baha’u’llah’s solution is for us all to see each other as equals and that involves not demonizing any race, religion, nationality or people as these prejudices cause some to get out their guns and kill and can trigger wars.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Kindly read my post #18 which provides an extended quote and see if one's explanation is still valid, please.
It seems to be talking about an event inside people using a symbolic description. Is it true? I believe it is in the sense that everyone who experienced God will think that a transformation has happened inside of themselves.

If taken literally. Whether copper changes to gold over 70 years after excavation... it does not. Scientists can transmute other elements to gold. I believe the first to do this was Seaborg.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Hi.

I have it on excellent authority....my gran....that if you leave a Lancashire hotpot untouched for eighteen months it will transmute into Welsh cawl :)


It needs to be buried 47.5 inches under ground with a lining of river mud and dog muck to attain the full flavour
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
How would one comment on the following, please?:

"Fact or Fiction?: Lead Can Be Turned into Gold"
Fact or Fiction?: Lead Can Be Turned into Gold

Regards


Lead and gold are very close in atomic weight and number. Particle accelerators will bombard a substance with particles at close to light speeds. Some few of those particles will be absorbed by (or particles will be stripped from) the target substance thus changing its atomic weight.

Note copper is not close in atomic weight to gold. In fact it is less than 1/3 the weight.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I provide a longer quote so that the context of the argument given by Bahaullah becomes evident:

Quote,"These same people, though wrapt in all these veils of limitation, and despite the restraint of such observances, as soon as they drank the immortal draft of faith, from the cup of certitude, at the hand of the Manifestation of the All-Glorious, were so transformed that they would renounce for His sake their kindred, their substance, their lives, their beliefs, yea, all else save God! So overpowering was their yearning for God, so uplifting their transports of ecstatic delight, that the world and all that is therein faded before their eyes into nothingness. Have not this people exemplified the mysteries of “rebirth” and “return”? Hath it not been witnessed that these same people, ere they were endued with the new and wondrous grace of God, sought through innumerable devices to ensure the protection of their lives against destruction? Would not a thorn fill them with terror, and the sight of a fox put them to flight? But once having been honored with God’s supreme distinction, and having been vouchsafed His bountiful grace, they would, if they were able, have freely offered up ten thousand lives in His path! Nay, their blessed souls, contemptuous of the cage of their bodies, would yearn for deliverance. A single warrior of that host would face and fight a multitude! And yet, how could they, but for the transformation wrought in their lives, be capable of manifesting such deeds which are contrary to the ways of men and incompatible with their worldly desires?

It is evident that nothing short of this mystic transformation could cause such spirit and behavior, so utterly unlike their previous habits and manners, to be made manifest in the world of being. For their agitation was turned into peace, their doubt into certitude , their timidity into courage. Such is the potency of the Divine Elixir, which, swift as the twinkling of an eye, transmuteth the souls of men!

For instance, consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold. There are some, however, who maintain that copper itself is gold, which by becoming solidified is in a diseased condition, and hath not therefore reached its own state.

Be that as it may, the real elixir will, in one instant, cause the substance of copper to attain the state of gold, and will traverse the seventy-year stages in a single moment. Could this gold be called copper? Could it be claimed that it hath not attained the state of gold, whilst the touchstone is at hand to assay it and distinguish it from copper?


Likewise, these souls, through the potency of the Divine Elixir, traverse, in the twinkling of an eye, the world of dust and advance into the realm of holiness; and with one step cover the earth of limitations and reach the domain of the Placeless. It behooveth thee to exert thine utmost to attain unto this Elixir which, in one fleeting breath, causeth the west of ignorance to reach the east of knowledge, illuminates the darkness of night with the resplendence of the morn, guideth the wanderer in the wilderness of doubt to the wellspring of the Divine Presence and Fount of certitude, and conferreth upon mortal souls the honor of acceptance into the Ridván of immortality. Now, could this gold be thought to be copper, these people could likewise be thought to be the same as before they were endowed with faith.

O brother, behold how the inner mysteries of “rebirth,” of “return,” and of “resurrection” have each, through these all-sufficing, these unanswerable, and conclusive utterances, been unveiled and unraveled before thine eyes. God grant that through His gracious and invisible assistance, thou mayest divest thy body and soul of the old garment, and array thyself with the new and imperishable attire.

Therefore, those who in every subsequent Dispensation preceded the rest of mankind in embracing the Faith of God, who quaffed the clear waters of knowledge at the hand of the divine Beauty, and attained the loftiest summits of faith and certitude , these can be regarded, in name, in reality, in deeds, in words, and in rank, as the “return” of those who in a former Dispensation had achieved similar distinctions. For whatsoever the people of a former Dispensation have manifested, the same hath been shown by the people of this latter generation. Consider the rose: whether it blossometh in the East or in the West, it is nonetheless a rose. For what mattereth in this respect is not the outward shape and form of the rose, but rather the smell and fragrance which it doth impart." Unquote.

Can it be symbolic and the argument is valid, please?

Regards

To understand as to what is "Elixir" in the extended quote from Bahaullah, I give its etymology, please:

elixir (n.)
mid-13c., from Medieval Latin elixir "philosopher's stone," believed by alchemists to transmute baser metals into gold and/or to cure diseases and prolong life, from Arabic al-iksir "the philosopher's stone," probably from late Greek xerion "powder for drying wounds," from xeros "dry" (see xerasia). Later in medical use for "a tincture with more than one base." General sense of "strong tonic" is 1590s; used for quack medicines from at least 1630s.

elixir | Origin and meaning of elixir by Online Etymology Dictionary

Regards
 

ManSinha

Well-Known Member
we don’t have problems

As usual - twisting the words of the other to make one's own point

I never said "We do not have problems"

Re read again or make an appointment with your local optometrist or get a bigger computer screen if you cannot see

I decried your world view as dismal -

That is a far cry from "We do not have problems" -

While we do have instances of hate - we have always had them - humanity always rises above - the vast majority of people strive to bette themselves and take care of their fellow beings who are suffering - we have come a long way from the so-called dark ages with advances in medicine to allay suffering, communications (case in point) and our general understanding of the Universe that surrounds us - consider the recent confirmation of light bending predicted by Einstein - added to that is facts about groups of humans caring about species going extinct to try and salvage some of them - including plants - that to me promises a better more enlightened tomorrow

And you side stepped my question entirely -

provide me with one statement from the Kitab-1-Aqdas where contemporary non-Baha'i writings or teachings were incorporated unaltered -

I am not usually given to using harsh language - but here I shall say it - put up or shut up
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
It is abstractly metaphorically, alchemically true.

Alchemically? Really? (Uproarious sardonic laughter) Alchemy was debunked long, long ago. It was never anything but fraud and pathetic superstition.

If Bahai's are into alchemy, their system is discredited.
 
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