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Is it true?

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
All this talk of the metaphor - to consider what the copper or the gold represents. However, a simple question dashes this notion to pieces:

Which has more intrinsic worth, copper or gold?​

There is no sufficient answer to that question. The selection of either is purely subjective. I honestly would have expected a wise man to have realized this, and not have appealed to the greed of men to help him make his point.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I believe he meant it as a literal example ... something factual to illustrate his point about something vaguely spiritual. Something akin to if you walk a stray path you'll fall (metaphorically) just as you would if you walked to the edge of the earth, and fell off. (science)
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
If Copper is a person who is with "poor" spirit. And gold is a person with "good" spirit. And 70 stages are the life span.

What is the elixir? What is meant by transmute? What is meant by traverse? What is the touchstone? And finally... is it true?



Adding the question mark at the end... the statement is saying:

"consider a person of poor spirit. If they are isolated, in their life span, would they become of good spirit?"



"some people say, people with poor spirit are the same as people with good spirit, but people with poor spirit are diseased and have not reached the state of goodness."



"the real elixir ( whatever / whomever that is ) will in an instant cause people with poor spirit to become people with good spirit as if they have lived their entire life-span in a single moment."



"The touchstone is at hand... Good Spirit, Bad Spirit, People are people, potato, pah-tah-toe?"

Is it true? I don't know. But here is a possible symbolic interpretation of the quote you provided :)

edit: @paarsurrey , just now reading your post, i was researching and typing...
The question about "metal copper becoming metal gold" is, did it happen in the past period or in the time when Bahaullah was alive?

The argument is only valid if it had happened in the past. Right, please?

Regards
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
We should keep in mind that alchemy helped to develop science of Chemistry:

"A quest for purity

The word “alchemy” brings to mind a cauldron-full of images: witches hovering over a boiling brew, or perhaps sorcerers in smoky labs or cluttered libraries. Despite these connotations of the mythic and mystical, alchemical practice played an important role in the evolution of modern science.
Historically, alchemy refers to both the investigation of nature and an early philosophical and spiritual discipline that combined chemistry with metal work. Alchemy also encompassed physics, medicine, astrology, mysticism, spiritualism, and art. The goals of alchemy were:
to find the “elixir of life” (it was thought that this magical elixir would bring wealth, health, and immortality);
to find or make a substance called the “philosopher’s stone,” which when heated and combined with “base” (nonprecious metals such as copper and iron) would turn it into gold, thought to be the highest and purest form of matter; and
to discover the relationship of humans to the cosmos and use that understanding to improve the human spirit.
Alchemy was scientific but it was also a spiritual tradition. Some of its practitioners had altruistic intentions. For instance, if alchemists could learn the secret of “purifying” base metals into gold, they might gain the ability to purify the human soul. At the same time, alchemy has often been seen as a get-rich-quick scheme and many alchemists as charlatans and pretenders. But many alchemists were in fact serious-minded practitioners whose work helped lay the groundwork for modern chemistry and medicine." Unquote
From Alchemy to Chemistry

Regards

Yes some alchemists did serious work but magic was not possible then as it is not possible now
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
It would be possible, if we will discover how? Baha'u'llah does suggest it may be revealed.

Precious metals can be made but the cost is more than production at this time

The science behind the synthesis of precious metals involves the use of either nuclear reactors or particle accelerators to produce these elements.

Synthesis of precious metals - Wikipedia

Thus if science meditates upon what Baha'u'llah wrote, it may unlock what needs to be done. My guess is that the unity of the human race is required first, as my thought is the science for this, will also produce our future energy source. Magnetism will play a part.

Regards Tony
But Bahaullah was talking about metal copper having become metal gold in the past, as a rule. Right, please?

Regards
 

Baroodi

Active Member
God is Omnipotent. Created humans from clay. (All he needs if he want something is to say : Be; and it will be.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
You can read more about that here:


Transmutation of elements

In 1873 Bahá'u'lláh wrote:

Consider the doubts which they who have joined partners with God have instilled into the hearts of the people of this land. "Is it ever possible," they ask, "for copper to be transmuted into gold?" Say, Yes, by my Lord, it is possible. Its secret, however, lieth hidden in Our Knowledge. We will reveal it unto whom We will. Whoso doubteth Our power, let him ask the Lord his God, that He may disclose unto him the secret, and assure him of its truth. That copper can be turned into gold is in itself sufficient proof that gold can, in like manner, be transmuted into copper, if they be of them that can apprehend this truth. Every mineral can be made to acquire the density, form, and substance of each and every other mineral. The knowledge thereof is with Us in the Hidden Book.[29]

Bahá'í Faith and science - Wikipedia


Transmutation - Wikipedia
When was Kitab-i-Iqan or Book of Certitude written by Bahaullah, please?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
As a liberal I vote no, leaving copper in it’s mine molten for seventy years will not cause it to become gold.

To me the science of Baha’u’llah stands on par with the science of the Quran (ie both fail when compared to modern science).

Kind regards :)

We are only discussing a passage of Kitab-i- Iqan of Bahaullah in this thread, please.
Thanks for agreeing that "leaving copper in it’s mine molten for seventy years will not cause it to become gold". Does one mean that Bahaullah wrote it, as a fact, as he was a fallible human being, please?

Regards
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But Bahaullah was talking about metal copper having become metal gold in the past, as a rule. Right, please?

Regards
In 1873 Bahá'u'lláh wrote:

Consider the doubts which they who have joined partners with God have instilled into the hearts of the people of this land. "Is it ever possible," they ask, "for copper to be transmuted into gold?" Say, Yes, by my Lord, it is possible. Its secret, however, lieth hidden in Our Knowledge. We will reveal it unto whom We will. Whoso doubteth Our power, let him ask the Lord his God, that He may disclose unto him the secret, and assure him of its truth. That copper can be turned into gold is in itself sufficient proof that gold can, in like manner, be transmuted into copper, if they be of them that can apprehend this truth. Every mineral can be made to acquire the density, form, and substance of each and every other mineral. The knowledge thereof is with Us in the Hidden Book.

That passage quited by @InvestigateTruth is the answer.

The knowledge is still hidden. Humanity is not ready for what will make this possible. It will be a power that can enable us to traverse time and space easily and swiftly.

The balance is here;

"...Whoso doubteth Our power, let him ask the Lord his God, that He may disclose unto him the secret, and assure him of its truth...."

That will not happen to me until we find unity, it will take more than one mind to discover this and then use it for good.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I quote from "Kitab-i-Aqdas" or the "Book of Certitude" written by Bahaullah:

“For instance, consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold. There are some, however, who maintain that copper itself is gold, which by becoming solidified is in a diseased condition, and hath not therefore reached its own state.

Be that as it may, the real elixir will, in one instant, cause the substance of copper to attain the state of gold, and will traverse the seventy-year stages in a single moment. Could this gold be called copper? Could it be claimed that it hath not attained the state of gold, whilst the touchstone is at hand to assay it and distinguish it from copper?”*

Is it true, please?

Thread open to believers of religion and non-believers.

Regards

_____________

*Page 40 of 72 of English Translation and or Page 132 of 231 of Arabic Translation


The passage is from the Kitab-i-Iqan, not Kitab-i-Aqdas.

It can be found on page 157 here:

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 121-160

If read in context, the verse is about the spiritual transformation of the soul of man. In that sense Copper and Gold are used as metaphors to compare the state of a soul who is animated by God (Gold) compared to one who is not (Copper).

Seventy years is also used metaphorically throughout the Baha'i writings.

Some Muslims who are antagonistic towards the Baha'i Faith like to take verses from the Baha'i writings out of context and assign a meaning that was never intended.

Some Baha'is will (mistakenly IMHO) take it literally as well.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
We are only discussing a passage of Kitab-i- Iqan of Bahaullah in this thread, please.
Thanks for agreeing that "leaving copper in it’s mine molten for seventy years will not cause it to become gold". Does one mean that Bahaullah wrote it, as a fact, as he was a fallible human being, please?

Regards
Yes Baha’u’llah and Muhammad are both fallible human beings, this does not mean they are not great humans, but being great does not make one infallible.
That’s my point of view as a liberal.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
In the past scientist did not know how to transmute elements. Modern science knows.
Bahaullah is talking about a 70 year process. He is not revealing its details and conditions.
I think you are confusing traditional desire to get rich by converting copper to gold, with what Bahaullah is talking about, which His purpose is to use this as an analogy. Just as it is possible to convert copper to gold, it is possible to convert the lower spiritual state to a higher level of spirituality, by teachings of Manifestations of God.

Please provide a scientific reference changing copper to gold.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Other references to seventy years in the Kita-i-Iqan include:

We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.
(Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Iqan, p. 255)

Seventy and One Meanings

Baha’u'llah in Kitáb-i-Íqán (p. 238) referred to “One hour’s reflection is preferable to seventy years of pious worship”.

Seventy is also used prophetically in the Bible by Christ and the prophet Daniel:

In the Book of Daniel 9:24-27 seven seventies are decreed:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

Interestingly Jesus refers to seven seventies when asked how many times we should forgive someone.

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven."

Matthew 18:21-22

Jesus refers to Daniel 9:26-27 through Matthew 24:15 using seventy in regards the abomination that causes desolation.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
It would be possible, if we will discover how? Baha'u'llah does suggest it may be revealed.

Precious metals can be made but the cost is more than production at this time

The science behind the synthesis of precious metals involves the use of either nuclear reactors or particle accelerators to produce these elements.

Synthesis of precious metals - Wikipedia

Thus if science meditates upon what Baha'u'llah wrote, it may unlock what needs to be done. My guess is that the unity of the human race is required first, as my thought is the science for this, will also produce our future energy source. Magnetism will play a part.

Regards Tony


Good luck using this to convert copper to gold.

Copper has 29 protons and 34 or 35 neutrons. Gold has 79 protons and 118 neutrons. Accelerators don't work like that.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Does one mean that one metal cannot be converted to another metal, please?

Regards

Depends on what you mean.

You can mix tin and copper to make bronze. But bronze is a mixture, not a separate element.

Copper, Mercury, and Gold are chemical elements. You cannot make one from the other using only chemical processes.

It *is* possible to make Gold from Mercury using nuclear processes, but the results tend to be radioactive and the quantities made very small.

But making Gold from Copper isn't going to happen via our current nuclear technology either.

No, simply burying or waiting will not convert copper to gold.
 
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