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Abortions, Man's Law & God's Law

sooda

Veteran Member
Its amazing how people take something, not knowing what it's referring to or why certain things were done.

Had you back up and find out what the subject and article is about.

Hosea 9:14-17

14 Give them, O Lord: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts"

(As you can see, there's no abortions, only the women having a miscarriage of not being able to get pregnant.)

15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

( Now why is God upset for their wickedness? )

16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.

( As you see, God caused the womb of the women to be dried up, that the women can not get pregnant. Nothing about abortions here either)
Like alot of women to day, that can't get pregnant, so they adopt a child, But still that is not abortion)

17 My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations"

God cast them away, because they would not obey God, So God caused the womb of the women to dried up, But still nothing about abortions)

Hosea 13:14-16.

the first mistake your making here is
It's not God doing all this.
Notice in verse 14 below

14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Have you any idea at all who death is and what is death's name is.?

The people of Ephraim chosen a king over them that caused the people to do wickedness. And not Good.

15 Though he be fruitful among his brethren, an east wind shall come, the wind of the Lordshall come up from the wilderness, and his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up: he shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels"

Now do you understand what is happening here.
What does it mean by, His spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up, So what does this all mean?

16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up"

So what did Samaria do, shall become desolate? What happened ?

That Samaria will fall by the sword,
Have you any idea or clue, what that sword is to represent in the bible?

For what cause their infants to be dashed in pieces.
Well for one the king they chosen lead them into a battle that they were unprepared for. That caused their women with child were ripped up..

As it is, had you read the whole chapter and found out what the subject and article is about first then you would have found out that God gave them forewarning what was to happen to Samaria and Ephraim for choosing a another king over them, that this king that they chosen would lead them into a battle they were unprepared for, that this other king and his army will destroy them. Ripped their women with child up.

Israel was divided into three areas.. Judah, Samaria and Galilee. Judah was very envious of the other two because they were prosperous and successful.

They demonized the "other" just like they demonized the Canaanites and now the Palestinian Arabs and Christians.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That's why to day, we have the necessary tools to translate languages into English language,
Where as those people back 400 to 1000 years ago, did the best they could with what limited tools they had to translate the Greek and Hebrew Languages into the English language
But to day, we can go on the internet to Library's to find what we need to translate languages.
Where people back didn't have that advantage as we do to day..
It's more than just translation errors, though; there are copy errors, editing and an awful lot of pure confabulation. Very little consists of first person accounts. Very little is evidenced or verifiable. It's basically an anthology of ancient legends and folklore.
 

Dan From Smithville

What's up Doc?
Staff member
Premium Member
Had you back up to the beginning of Chapter 9 of Hosea and find out what the Subject and article is about first and then proceeded on.

What was the Cause and Motive behind what God did.

In Hosea 9:1-17. You'll find Ephraim turned their backs on God.
And put over them the king of Assyria, Which the king of Assyria was going to take the children that was born to the women of Ephraim and kill them.

So the God of Israel intervene to prevent the murderous king of Assyria in the killing of the children of Ephraim in his burned sacrifices to his god Moloch.
So God caused the women of Ephraim to have a miscarriage. So that the king of Assyria had no children to kill in his burned offerings to his god Moloch.

So there lays the Cause and Motive Why God caused the women of Ephraim to have a miscarriage.
It's all there in Hosea 9:1-17.
The Cause and Motive Why God did what he did.
Try reading the whole Chapter, instead of your cherry picking one or two verses.
And then try to build your whole case base on one or two verses.
So you are saying abortion is OK if we know that it is the abortion that will prevent bad people. That is a strange position. Are you suggesting only abortions for the poor that are often the source of a lot of crime due to their economic situations?

At least you are not denying the abortion part of the story now. That is a step in the right direction.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Can you be specific about "Assyria" today and what the threat is?


the king of Assyria which is written about in
Isaiah chapters 10-14
Hosea chapters 9-13.
Revelation chapters 9,13-18
The Assyrian king is in the likeness of the king of the bottomless pit and the beast in the chapters Revelation above.
What the king of Assyria is doing, is in the same likeness of the king of bottomless pit and the beast of Revelation.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
the king of Assyria which is written about in
Isaiah chapters 10-14
Hosea chapters 9-13.
Revelation chapters 9,13-18
The Assyrian king is in the likeness of the king of the bottomless pit and the beast in the chapters Revelation above.
What the king of Assyria is doing, is in the same likeness of the king of bottomless pit and the beast of Revelation.

The problem is there is NO Assyria anymore AND there's no king. Are you worried about ancient history?

Ashur was the capital city in Mesopotamia, making Assyria one of the greatest empires in the area. Ancient Assyria covered the vast majority of northern Mesopotamia. King Hammurabi of Babylon conquered Assyria after Shamshi-Adad's death, which made Assyria a vassal state. Must have been 2600 BC.. 1500 years before Genesis.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
So you are saying abortion is OK if we know that it is the abortion that will prevent bad people. That is a strange position. Are you suggesting only abortions for the poor that are often the source of a lot of crime due to their economic situations?

At least you are not denying the abortion part of the story now. That is a step in the right direction.

Nope that is not what Im saying.

As for Hosea 9:13-16,
13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer"

This murderer, being the king of Assyria.
Which taken children and babies to make sacrifices in burning them in fire to his god Moloch.
It's this king of Assyria that Ephraim turned went to, for this reason is why God turned his back on Ephraim, because the people of Ephraim turned their backs on God first.

Then God let Ephraim go after the murderer king of Assyria. That's what the tribe of Ephraim wanted,

14 Give them, O Lord: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.

15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb"

The word ( smitten) in the Strong's concordance of the Hebrew Translation.
cast forth, beaten, stricken, punish, slaughter, murderer, slay, wounded, severely,
Their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth"

Because of Ephraim sin against God, that whatever they plant will not produce nothing.

Then we find God saying " yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb"

God caused the womb to bear no children, to be barren, at conception.

As it is God was not going to let the murderer king of Assyria kill Ephraim children in his sacrifices to his god.

So God cause the womb to dry up that would not produce children.


God slay the fruit of the womb,
Meaning that God slayed the fruit of the womb to prevent the womb from producing children.

As women carry the egg which takes the man to fertilized the egg inside of the woman.
So by means God prevented the egg from being fertilized from producing children.

As the fruit of the womb is the egg which the woman Carries. Which God prevents from being able to produce children..

As there are women even to day that can't have children because the woman's egg will not take to be fertilized by the man.l
As in some cases men can't have children, because their sperm will not produce. What is need to fertilized the woman's egg.

So all God did is make the womb of the women eggs incapable of being fertilized.
To produce children.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
The problem is there is NO Assyria anymore AND there's no king. Are you worried about ancient history?

Ashur was the capital city in Mesopotamia, making Assyria one of the greatest empires in the area. Ancient Assyria covered the vast majority of northern Mesopotamia. King Hammurabi of Babylon conquered Assyria after Shamshi-Adad's death, which made Assyria a vassal state. Must have been 2600 BC.. 1500 years before Genesis.

Where did I say the king of Assyria by being here.

I said, if you paid attention that the king of Assyria in Hosea chapters 9,13, is in the likeness of the king of the bottomless pit and beast in the book of
Revelation chapters 9,13.
 

Dan From Smithville

What's up Doc?
Staff member
Premium Member
Nope that is not what Im saying.

As for Hosea 9:13-16,
13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer"

This murderer, being the king of Assyria.
Which taken children and babies to make sacrifices in burning them in fire to his god Moloch.
It's this king of Assyria that Ephraim turned went to, for this reason is why God turned his back on Ephraim, because the people of Ephraim turned their backs on God first.

Then God let Ephraim go after the murderer king of Assyria. That's what the tribe of Ephraim wanted,

14 Give them, O Lord: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.

15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb"

The word ( smitten) in the Strong's concordance of the Hebrew Translation.
cast forth, beaten, stricken, punish, slaughter, murderer, slay, wounded, severely,
Their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth"

Because of Ephraim sin against God, that whatever they plant will not produce nothing.

Then we find God saying " yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb"

God caused the womb to bear no children, to be barren, at conception.

As it is God was not going to let the murderer king of Assyria kill Ephraim children in his sacrifices to his god.

So God cause the womb to dry up that would not produce children.


God slay the fruit of the womb,
Meaning that God slayed the fruit of the womb to prevent the womb from producing children.

As women carry the egg which takes the man to fertilized the egg inside of the woman.
So by means God prevented the egg from being fertilized from producing children.

As the fruit of the womb is the egg which the woman Carries. Which God prevents from being able to produce children..

As there are women even to day that can't have children because the woman's egg will not take to be fertilized by the man.l
As in some cases men can't have children, because their sperm will not produce. What is need to fertilized the woman's egg.

So all God did is make the womb of the women eggs incapable of being fertilized.
To produce children.
16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb"

God has done more than that according to the verses you quote. You can see that the fruit that they do bring forth is aborted from the womb.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb"

God has done more than that according to the verses you quote. You can see that the fruit that they do bring forth is aborted from the womb.

As for Hosea 9:11-16,
11 As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception"

Here in verse 11, God closed up women's reproductive organism of the womb, so that the women of Ephraim can not reproduce children from conception.

12 Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them"

Here in verse 12, The children that the women of Ephraim already had, will bring them up to adult hood, but the women of Ephraim can not no more have children there after, because God closed up the reproductive organism of the women womb of Ephraim, So they can not reproduce children at conception.

And Note that by God closing up the reproductive organism of the women's womb of Ephraim, That the people of Ephraim will die off at an old age, all because God closed the women's reproductive organism of the womb, so they can not reproduce children. So in time the people of Ephraim will soon die off at old age.

This being why in the book of
Revelation 7:4-8, The tribe of Ephraim is not mentioned, because God closed up the reproductive organism of the women womb of the tribe of Ephraim, So that the women could not reproduce children. So in time the tribe of Ephraim died off.

13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.

Here in verse 13, The Murderer here is the king of Assyria. Which would haved killed children of Ephraim before they were born and after they were born. To be used in the king of Assyria sacrifices to his god, So the God of Israel, closed up the reproductive organism of the women of the tribe Ephraim so that they could not reproduce children.

14 Give them, O Lord: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.

Here in verse 14, a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. Seeing that God closed up women's reproductive organism of the womb, so that the women could not reproduce children, the women's breasts would also not produce milk.

15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

Here in verse 15, God driven the tribe of Ephraim out, because of their wickedness, I will love them no more, This is why in the book of Revelation 7:4-8, that the tribe of Ephraim is not listed among the 12 tribes of Israel. Because in time the whole tribe of Ephraim died off as they gotten older. From not being able to reproduce children.

16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.

Here in verse 16, God saying -- "Yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb"

Therefore God closed up the reproductive organism of the women's womb of Ephraim so that they could not reproduce children.

The Reproductive organism of women and how it works.

The female reproductive system provides several functions. The ovaries produce the egg cells, called the ova or oocytes. The oocytes are then transported to the fallopian tube where fertilization by a sperm may occur. The fertilized egg then moves to the uterus, where the uterine lining has thickened in response to the normal hormones of the reproductive cycle. Once in the uterus, the fertilized egg can implant into thickened uterine lining and continue to develop. If implantation does not take place, the uterine lining is shed as menstrual flow. In addition, the female reproductive system produces female sex hormones that maintain the reproductive cycle.
During menopause, the female reproductive system gradually stops making the female hormones necessary for the reproductive cycle to work. At this point, menstrual cycles can become irregular and eventually stop. One year after menstrual cycles stop, the woman is considered to be menopausal.

Therefore women of Ephraim can not Reproduce children. As God closed up the reproductive organism in the women's womb, So the women of Ephraim could not reproduce children at conception.

So therefore, there were not no abortions being done, only that God closed up the reproductive organism of the women of Ephraim so they could not reproduce children at conception.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
in Abortions, you can kill without any consequences. This is a contradiction of man's laws

Man's law is whatever he enacts. Wherever abortion is legal, it is man's law.

Not realizing that God's law "Thou Shalt Not Kill" stands in the way of Abortions.

What you call God's law is not binding on anybody. One has to volunteer to submit to biblical authority.

And you've been told repeatedly why we are free to ignore "Thou shalt not kill." Killing is unavoidable, and beneficial under many circumstances.

Do you know what happens to the bacteria in you when you are successfully treated for a bacterial infection? It's the bacterial equivalent of genocide.

So you say, those cells are not human life,

Irrelevant. The moral status of abortion does not depend on any word used to describe the fetus including human, human being, person, baby or child. It's either right or wrong based on the act, not semantics. It's a subjective call.

As you have no understanding or knowledge of what the Bible does say and confirms.

Everybody is free to decide what vague or ambiguous language means. Nobody's opinion outranks anybody else's, although I would turn to an unbeliever before a believer if I didn't feel like reading the words and deciding myself. Unbeliever's answers are more like one another than those of believers, who feel a need to sanitize scripture with improvisations that make their answers vary between them more than that of the unbelievers

So show in the bible that God supports abortions.

You've been shown the scriptures. This is a fine example of what I just wrote about. You're modifying the apparent meaning of the words in the scriptures. @sooda gave you this:

"Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb." -- Hosea 9:16

"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up". -- Hosea 13:16

It says very clearly the God will slay the beloved fruit of their womb. Any English-speaking person with no anti-abortion agenda can tell you what that means, but I suspect few if any believer will tell you that the words depict God killing fetuses, sometimes along with their mothers.

Like you to explain exactly how abortions fits into God 6th commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill"

Just go find another scripture where God commands killing. When you've got a contradiction, you've a question with conflicting answers. The unbeliever stops there - there is no definite position stated in the Bible. The unbeliever, however, will try to make the contradictory statement he least likes into something that it's not..

When God said, I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb, as verse 14 has stated, God caused the womb of the women not to get pregnant.

Nice example right here. Slaying fetuses does not mean making women infertile.

It's totally amazing how people go into the bible that have no understanding or knowledge about what the bible Confirm's.

I'd say that it's the unbelievers who seem to understand what the words say.

For the law of man's does say, that if a person kills another person, that person will either be killed for taking another person life or be in prison for the rest of their life. Either way that person is paying the price for taking another life.

Death penalty? What happened to the 6th Commandment? It doesn't apply to all life?

God doesn't force anyone to believe in him nor does God force anyone to stay with him.

I've noticed that whenever God has the choice of acting in a way that is only possible for a god, or doing what would happen anyway if there were no god, He chooses the latter.

All God doing is setting back watching all the evil come upon people

Is that what we should call a good god? As is always the case, it's more like no god at all.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
In speaking about abortions

According to man's laws, If a person kills another person, then that person will either pay the price by his life in the death penalty.
Or in some cases, they'll go to prison for the rest of their life for taking the life of another.

But yet in Abortions this contradicts the laws of man's.
That on one hand if you kill someone, then you face the death penalty or prison

But in Abortions, you can kill without any consequences. This is a contradiction of man's laws

For some unknown reason, people thinks God is for abortions. The reason for this, people cherry pick verses out of the Bible and then try to imply them to abortions.

Not realizing that God's law "Thou Shalt Not Kill" stands in the way of Abortions.

What does it mean "Thou Shalt Not Kill?

This means do not take an innocent life. Such as babies in Abortions or kill someone without a cause. Did that person kill in self defense in the fear of their life being taken.

Now to kill in self defense, that's permissable by God. As your allowed by God to defend yourself or Country when attack.

But to take an innocent life in abortions, God does not and will not stand by it.

As I would like to know how this is going to work and fit in God's
ten commandments law
The 6th commandment plainly says
"Thou Shalt Not Kill"

Then how is God for abortions, but yet be found saying "Thou Shalt Not Kill"
In taking innocent life.

So how is this to work and how does
"Thou Shalt Not Kill" fit into Abortions?

That no matter how a person
trys to cut it,
It still stands with God
"Thou Shalt Not Kill"

I don't see it as Mans law or God's law. What I see is we are using abortions as a form of birth control which I see as wrong with the many forms of birth control that are available to most anyone. If soneone doesn't want kids, they should use birth control and stop thinking if I get pregnant I will just have an easy to get abortion.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I don't see it as Mans law or God's law. What I see is we are using abortions as a form of birth control which I see as wrong with the many forms of birth control that are available to most anyone. If soneone doesn't want kids, they should use birth control and stop thinking if I get pregnant I will just have an easy to get abortion.
Does anyone actually do that though? Abortions are not "easy to get" in many areas, nor are they cheap.
 
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