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Is it true?

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What is meant by a "state of gold"... I'm not understanding the context.

I can give a brief thought.

From my understanding all things reach their current 'state' by more or less being subject to the forces that bring them to the current state of being at a given time.

Thus carbon at one time was living vegetation.

A person of the world can becone a person of spirit. This process cones about by being subject to the fire of tests between our material and spiritual self.

This is a big subject.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What is the elixir? What is meant by transmute? What is meant by traverse? What is the touchstone? And finally... is it true?

All great questions. Sorry I ran out of time today.

The Elixer in this case I see would be the New Message and Law of God. It would most likely be the touchstone as well.

Traverse may be our change from material being to spiritual being while still in the material world, born again as Christ put it. That also may tie into transmute.

Regards Tony
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Clerics of the religion of peace had him killed by firing squad, ironic.
Bahaullah died a natural death:
Bahá'u'lláh (/bəˈhɑːʊˌlɑː/; Persian : بهاءالله ; November 12 , 1817 – May 29, 1892), was a Persian religious leader, prophet and the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, which advocates universal peace and unity among all races, nations, and religions.

At the age of 27, Bahá'u'lláh became a follower of the Báb, a Persian merchant who began preaching that God would soon send a new prophet similar to Jesus or Muhammad. The Báb and thousands of followers were executed by the Iranian authorities for their beliefs. Bahá'u'lláh faced exile from his native Iran, and in Baghdad in 1863 claimed to be the expected prophet of whom the Báb foretold. Thus, Bahá'ís regard Bahá'u'lláh to be a Manifestation of God, fulfilling of the eschatological expectations of Islam, Christianity, and other major religions.[1]

Bahá'u'lláh faced further imprisonment under Ottoman authorities, initially in Edirne, and ultimately to the prison city of Acre, (present-day Israel), where he spent his final 24 years of life. His burial place is a destination of pilgrimage for his followers, and the Bahá'í World Centre sits in nearby Haifa.

Bahá'u'lláh - Wikipedia

On 9 May 1892, Bahá'u'lláh contracted a slight fever which grew steadily over the following days, abated, and then finally resulted in his death on 29 May 1892 (Dhu'l Qa'dah 2, 1309 AH). He was buried in the shrine located next to Mansion of Bahjí.[52]

Bahá'u'lláh - Wikipedia

Regards
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
If Copper is a person who is with "poor" spirit. And gold is a person with "good" spirit. And 70 stages are the life span.

What is the elixir? What is meant by transmute? What is meant by traverse? What is the touchstone? And finally... is it true?
In the same Book Bahaullah confirms a saying by Sadiq:
One hour thinking is better than 70 years worship.

Adding the question mark at the end... the statement is saying:

"consider a person of poor spirit. If they are isolated, in their life span, would they become of good spirit?"
I suggest the parallel of analogy is, if the Soul is protected from corruption of Sin and corrupted desires.
This is what Bahaullah says elsewhere:

Baha'u'llah — 'Regard man as a mine rich in gems of inestimable value. Education can, alone, cause it to reveal its treasures, and enable mankind to bene...'

The Man is the 'Mine'. 'Education', seems to be the elixir??


"some people say, people with poor spirit are the same as people with good spirit, but people with poor spirit are diseased and have not reached the state of goodness."
Bahaullah is concerned with living people.

"the real elixir ( whatever / whomever that is ) will in an instant cause people with poor spirit to become people with good spirit as if they have lived their entire life-span in a single moment."
It is the Will of God. If Will it, He can transform a low state to highest state.
I suggest it is an allusion to a New Revelation which descends in an instant on the Messenger of God.
"The touchstone is at hand... Good Spirit, Bad Spirit, People are people, potato, pah-tah-toe?"

Is it true? I don't know. But here is a possible symbolic interpretation of the quote you provided :)

edit: @paarsurrey , just now reading your post, i was researching and typing...

It is about having spiritual qualities, such as kindness, forgiveness, generosity,...etc. Some people have more of these qualities, some less. It is how Spiritually Rich vs. poor is defined in Bahai Writings.
 
Last edited:

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I quote from "Kitab-i-Aqdas" or the "Book of Certitude" written by Bahaullah:

“For instance, consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold. There are some, however, who maintain that copper itself is gold, which by becoming solidified is in a diseased condition, and hath not therefore reached its own state.

Be that as it may, the real elixir will, in one instant, cause the substance of copper to attain the state of gold, and will traverse the seventy-year stages in a single moment. Could this gold be called copper? Could it be claimed that it hath not attained the state of gold, whilst the touchstone is at hand to assay it and distinguish it from copper?”*

Is it true, please?

Thread open to believers of religion and non-believers.

Regards

_____________

*Page 40 of 72 of English Translation and or Page 132 of 231 of Arabic Translation
As a liberal I vote no, leaving copper in it’s mine molten for seventy years will not cause it to become gold.

To me the science of Baha’u’llah stands on par with the science of the Quran (ie both fail when compared to modern science).

Kind regards :)
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
What makes one sure that Bahaullah is talking of Alchemy and not of pure Science, please?

Regards

His lack of PhD perhaps

Or maybe the fact that if it were possible to more than triple the atomic weight of an element, gold would be as cheap as chips
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
If they could do this, everybody would be turning copper into gold.

Maybe it's meant as a metaphor. 70 years, average life of a person. The aging process from a innocent/ignorant newborn to a wise old man. From inferior copper to superior gold.
Kindly read my post #18 which provides an extended quote and see if one's explanation is still valid, please.

Regards
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
but rather the smell and fragrance which it doth impart.

This part is also symbolic. Scent is another old symbol for the the spirit. I'll look for a reference for it.

But you asked specifically if:

"The argument is valid?"

I mean, it could be from a symbolic perspective.

The question is, what is the elixir? Are we talking about a messiah, an actual person? Or we talking about an idea? Or are we talking about a series of events?

The elixir could be a recipe of all those things: the right person / people, in the right place in the right time...

That's what makes it kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. It can mean so many things.

But, taking your question seriously.. I will continue:

God grant that through His gracious and invisible assistance, thou mayest divest thy body and soul of the old garment, and array thyself with the new and imperishable attire.

this part is about either eternal life or reincarnation? that's the goal of the elixir... that's the purpose of the transmutation? ( I'm putting question marks in here, because, I really have no idea, all this is pure speculation )

then the whole final paragraph is pretty simple? right?

Therefore, those who in every subsequent Dispensation preceded the rest of mankind in embracing the Faith of God, who quaffed the clear waters of knowledge at the hand of the divine Beauty, and attained the loftiest summits of faith and certitude , these can be regarded, in name, in reality, in deeds, in words, and in rank, as the “return” of those who in a former Dispensation had achieved similar distinctions. For whatsoever the people of a former Dispensation have manifested, the same hath been shown by the people of this latter generation. Consider the rose: whether it blossometh in the East or in the West, it is nonetheless a rose. For what mattereth in this respect is not the outward shape and form of the rose, but rather the smell and fragrance which it doth impart.

Dispensation is a period of time or an era. So the paragraph is talking about comparing people with "good spirit and good qualities" from those of the past to those of the present. It talks about comparing people of "good spirit and good qualities" from western backgrounds to eastern backgrounds. And it says at the end, basically... the form on the outside doesn't matter. It's what's on the inside that counts. The smell is a symbol for the spirit or the soul. It says the soul and spirit of the person are what matters?

That's it.

You asked if it's valid? My opinion. From a symbolic perspective, why not?

In America we have an expression: "Don't judge a book by it's cover." It's universally accepted as true by almost everyone. :)

Who or what is the "elixir" and who or what is the "touchstone" would be the part that determines whether the entire passage is valid. But the idea is quite universal. That's the point, right?
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
I quote from "Kitab-i-Aqdas" or the "Book of Certitude" written by Bahaullah:

“For instance, consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold. There are some, however, who maintain that copper itself is gold, which by becoming solidified is in a diseased condition, and hath not therefore reached its own state.

Be that as it may, the real elixir will, in one instant, cause the substance of copper to attain the state of gold, and will traverse the seventy-year stages in a single moment. Could this gold be called copper? Could it be claimed that it hath not attained the state of gold, whilst the touchstone is at hand to assay it and distinguish it from copper?”*

Is it true, please?

Thread open to believers of religion and non-believers.

Regards

_____________

*Page 40 of 72 of English Translation and or Page 132 of 231 of Arabic Translation

There are many forms of transmutation. Here's transmutation through LENR:

Lattice Energy LLC - Production of Gold via LENR transmutation of Pla…

There's also transmutation through cavitation of water. Cavitation is what pistol shrimps use to stun their prey:


"As the bubbles collapse they temporarily reach the temperature of the sun."

I think what is important is to realize just how much stranger nature can be compared to anything we could have ever imagined!
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I know absolutely nothing about the text or the author you cited.

But the 70 year part, and the copper, and the gold all sound like symbolism to me.
Bahaullah insisted, as I understand, that it is not symbolic for which please read post #8 from our friend InvestigateTruth in this thread.

How will one comment on this , please?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
If they could do this, everybody would be turning copper into gold.

Maybe it's meant as a metaphor. 70 years, average life of a person. The aging process from a innocent/ignorant newborn to a wise old man. From inferior copper to superior gold.

Bahaullah has many followers, one of them should think about it, no harm, it is a precious metal. They are welcome to do it.

Regards
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Bahaullah insisted, as I understand, that it is not symbolic for which please read post #8 from our friend InvestigateTruth in this thread.

How will one comment on this , please?

Regards

In post #8, again, the quote there to me is like a blinking neon sign that reads: "SYMBOLISM". It's just the way my brain works. I apologize.

If you read the passage, using the same symbolism as I presented before, it's pretty easy for me to find value and validity in both passages. From a symbolic point of view, both passages support each other. From a scientific perspective they, forgive me, start to fall apart.

But that is my own, immature, first take read on it. I hope that's OK.

I do want to point this out. InvestigateTruth brought a passage that indicates the Elixir may be "Education". If that's true, then again, from a symbolic perspective, both the passage in the OP and the passage in post #8 have merit in my opinion.

'Education', seems to be the elixir??
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Bahaullah has many followers, one of them should think about it, no harm, it is a precious metal. They are welcome to do it.

Regards

In the end paarsurry, it is what you get from what is written. Just as it is up to each of us as to what we get from the Quran. What is it that Allah is saying to us and commands us to do?

Regards Tony
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Attempting to transmute a cheap metal into gold was one of the driving forces of alchemy hundreds of years before Bahaullah was a twinkle in his dads eye.

What is Alchemy?
We should keep in mind that alchemy helped to develop science of Chemistry:

"A quest for purity

The word “alchemy” brings to mind a cauldron-full of images: witches hovering over a boiling brew, or perhaps sorcerers in smoky labs or cluttered libraries. Despite these connotations of the mythic and mystical, alchemical practice played an important role in the evolution of modern science.
Historically, alchemy refers to both the investigation of nature and an early philosophical and spiritual discipline that combined chemistry with metal work. Alchemy also encompassed physics, medicine, astrology, mysticism, spiritualism, and art. The goals of alchemy were:
to find the “elixir of life” (it was thought that this magical elixir would bring wealth, health, and immortality);
to find or make a substance called the “philosopher’s stone,” which when heated and combined with “base” (nonprecious metals such as copper and iron) would turn it into gold, thought to be the highest and purest form of matter; and
to discover the relationship of humans to the cosmos and use that understanding to improve the human spirit.
Alchemy was scientific but it was also a spiritual tradition. Some of its practitioners had altruistic intentions. For instance, if alchemists could learn the secret of “purifying” base metals into gold, they might gain the ability to purify the human soul. At the same time, alchemy has often been seen as a get-rich-quick scheme and many alchemists as charlatans and pretenders. But many alchemists were in fact serious-minded practitioners whose work helped lay the groundwork for modern chemistry and medicine." Unquote
From Alchemy to Chemistry

Regards
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I know absolutely nothing about the text or the author you cited.

But the 70 year part, and the copper, and the gold all sound like symbolism to me.

Or maybe it is just ignorance dragged up from the dark
ages.
 
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