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Abortions, Man's Law & God's Law

sooda

Veteran Member
Of course they are human, but they are not people. It's people who have a claim to moral consideration, not human foetuses.
Human sperm and ova, human foetus, human child. Only the latter is a person.
It's not our humanness that commands moral consideratuon, but our personhood.
ROFL! -- It's not we who have been reading fantasy stories. It seems to me it's you who've swallowed the unsupported folklore about turning water into wine, walking on water, raising the dead, casting demons into pigs, &c.
Some people will believe anything.

Does the story of Jesus need to be embellished with supernatural events like walking on water?
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I would definitely like for you to show exactly where in the Constitution where it's written about abortions.
That you would ask this demonstrates two things:
1) Ignorance of the U.S. law and how it is made, and
2) Intellectual dishonesty (as you have shifted the goal posts).
As you have no understanding or knowledge of what the Bible does say and confirms.
Despite being an atheist, I do have a good understanding on exactly what the bible says.
So show in the bible that God supports abortions.
Like you to explain exactly how abortions fits into God 6th commandment
"Thou Shalt Not Kill"
So how is that to work.
That is simple. That commandment was not applicable to some abortions, because a fetus at various points was not yet considered living. One cannot kill what is not living, let alone murder.

You seem to think that a group of people in ancient Israel operated with the same knowledge we do today. There is no evidence for such an absurd proposition. Were you to hold that an abortion of a quickened child was murder, you might have a point. Unfortunately, you are operating from a very different sort of magical thinking.

Distorting the bible to mean what it does not say is a time honored tradition. I certainly won't stop you. But please remember that this jas nothing to do with what the bible says, rather it is what you think it means.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
It is totally amazing to watch you twist what the Bible clearly states into something it does not state. Verse 16 is talking about 'destroying the fruit of the womb'. These would be women already pregnant. If they could not have gotten pregnant, there would be no fruit to destroy.

Had you back up to the beginning of Chapter 9 of Hosea and find out what the Subject and article is about first and then proceeded on.

What was the Cause and Motive behind what God did.

In Hosea 9:1-17. You'll find Ephraim turned their backs on God.
And put over them the king of Assyria, Which the king of Assyria was going to take the children that was born to the women of Ephraim and kill them.

So the God of Israel intervene to prevent the murderous king of Assyria in the killing of the children of Ephraim in his burned sacrifices to his god Moloch.
So God caused the women of Ephraim to have a miscarriage. So that the king of Assyria had no children to kill in his burned offerings to his god Moloch.

So there lays the Cause and Motive Why God caused the women of Ephraim to have a miscarriage.
It's all there in Hosea 9:1-17.
The Cause and Motive Why God did what he did.
Try reading the whole Chapter, instead of your cherry picking one or two verses.
And then try to build your whole case base on one or two verses.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
That you would ask this demonstrates two things:
1) Ignorance of the U.S. law and how it is made, and
2) Intellectual dishonesty (as you have shifted the goal posts).

Despite being an atheist, I do have a good understanding on exactly what the bible says.

That is simple. That commandment was not applicable to some abortions, because a fetus at various points was not yet considered living. One cannot kill what is not living, let alone murder.

You seem to think that a group of people in ancient Israel operated with the same knowledge we do today. There is no evidence for such an absurd proposition. Were you to hold that an abortion of a quickened child was murder, you might have a point. Unfortunately, you are operating from a very different sort of magical thinking.

Distorting the bible to mean what it does not say is a time honored tradition. I certainly won't stop you. But please remember that this jas nothing to do with what the bible says, rather it is what you think it means.

Seeing that you said, that you do have a good understanding on exactly what the bible says.

Ok, then explain exactly how the 6th commandment law of God's
( Thou Shalt Not Kill)
How does this fit to work with abortions.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Man's laws vary widely, and are constantly changing. They are "enforced suggestions," crafted to deal with a particular situation in a particular place at a particular time.
Man's law allows the killing of men, women and children in many different situations.
Wouldn't the executioner in a capital case be guilty of the same crime the criminal was being executed for, then?
What do man's laws have to do with right and wrong; with morality? They're just social tools, to deal with some immediate social problem.
No, not at present, in the US. Next year it may be. Who knows? Man's laws are mercurial.
Who said God was "for" abortions? I think most people here are simply saying He does not oppose them.
As you well know by now, it's a mistranslation. It amounts to a prohibition on violating man's current homicide laws in your region.
I see no added clauses in "Thou shalt not kill." As written and translated, it prohibits killing even a carrot. Everything else is human interpretation.
From the mighty Wiki:
"The Hebrew verb רצח (r-ṣ-ḥ, also transliterated retzach, ratzákh, ratsakh etc.) is the word in the original text that is translated as "murder" , but it has a wider range of meanings, generally describing destructive activity, including meanings "to break, to dash to pieces" as well as "to slay, kill, murder"."

Wouldn't "not taking an innocent life" include bombing a city or killing a chicken?

No. This is a self-serving rationalization. You are to love your enemies, turn the other cheek and return good for evil. And Jesus did not believe in countries or nationalism: "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. -- Galations. 3:28.
Not biblical -- Personal theology.
But it doesn't, does it?

You're basing your whole argument on a known mistranslation.

So you say, but it doesn't take away from
God's 6th commandment law
"Thou Shalt Not Kill"

Whether it be abortions or in killings
How does "Thou Shalt Not Kill"
fit to work whether it be abortions or killing
The answer to this all lays within the bible
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Of course they are human, but they are not people. It's people who have a claim to moral consideration, not human foetuses.
Human sperm and ova, human foetus, human child. Only the latter is a person.
It's not our humanness that commands moral consideratuon, but our personhood.
ROFL! -- It's not we who have been reading fantasy stories. It seems to me it's you who've swallowed the unsupported folklore about turning water into wine, walking on water, raising the dead, casting demons into pigs, &c.
Some people will believe anything.

Well you just proved yourself of having no understanding or knowledge what the bible will say or Confirm's.

So explain exactly how does abortions or killing fit to work with
God's 6th commandment law
"Thou Shalt Not Kill"
How exactly does abortions or killing innocent people fit and work.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
with regard to man’s laws, it is a question of legality, not morality.
I would hasten to add that as far as anyone can demonstrate, so-called “god’s laws” are actually man’s laws as well.


For the law of man's does say, that if a person kills another person, that person will either be killed for taking another person life or be in prison for the rest of their life. Either way that person is paying the price for taking another life.

God's law, " Thou Shalt Not Kill"
Works the same way, if a person takes an innocent life then that person is to pay with their life being taken. Whether it be in prison for the rest of their life or the death penalty.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Of course they are human, but they are not people. It's people who have a claim to moral consideration, not human foetuses.
Human sperm and ova, human foetus, human child. Only the latter is a person.
It's not our humanness that commands moral consideratuon, but our personhood.
ROFL! -- It's not we who have been reading fantasy stories. It seems to me it's you who've swallowed the unsupported folklore about turning water into wine, walking on water, raising the dead, casting demons into pigs, &c.
Some people will believe anything.

It seems you say to agree on one hand and turn around and be found in contradicting yourself on the other hand, are you always in the habit of doing this.

As you did in post #25, you agreed and now contradicting yourself here.
What's up with all that.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Does the story of Jesus need to be embellished with supernatural events like walking on water?
Maybe -- if it's to be believed and passed down.
Without the miracles it's just another apocryphal story of a religious preacher.
In Hosea 9:1-17. You'll find Ephraim turned their backs on God.
And put over them the king of Assyria, Which the king of Assyria was going to take the children that was born to the women of Ephraim and kill them.
99.9% of the human population of the time had "turned their backs on the Abrahamic God. God took no notice.
People have always fought, leaders are always changing, and everyone claims God's on their side. How was this squabble any different?
How do you know the plans of the Assyrians?
So the God of Israel intervene to prevent the murderous king of Assyria in the killing of the children of Ephraim in his burned sacrifices to his god Moloch.
So God caused the women of Ephraim to have a miscarriage. So that the king of Assyria had no children to kill in his burned offerings to his god Moloch.
Why not strike at the actual, "murderous perpetrator," rather than Ephraim and his 'women?'
This whole story sounds contrived.

God seems to do nothing to prevent evil. He just capriciously strikes out at random people. And it doesn't seem to work. No-one gets the message and becomes peaceful.
Maybe if the interventions were more direct...
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So you say, but it doesn't take away from
God's 6th commandment law
"Thou Shalt Not Kill"
"Don't murder" is not God's law. It's meaningful only within the context of man's laws within a particular jurisdiction. As man's laws change, so do the actions that constitute murder.
Whether it be abortions or in killings
How does "Thou Shalt Not Kill"
fit to work whether it be abortions or killing
The answer to this all lays within the bible
No!
"Thou shalt not kill" taken literally, is an impossible commandment. You can't eat without killing, and if you eschew food you kill yourself.

"Don't murder" -- a more correct translation -- is also ambiguous. Murder is a legal term, so what killing is legal or illegal varies by jurisdiction and time. The verse, essentially, says to follow the current homicide laws in your region. It's not an immutable law of God.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It seems you say to agree on one hand and turn around and be found in contradicting yourself on the other hand, are you always in the habit of doing this.

As you did in post #25, you agreed and now contradicting yourself here.
What's up with all that.
How am I contradicting myself?
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Maybe -- if it's to be believed and passed down.
Without the miracles it's just another apocryphal story of a religious preacher.
99.9% of the human population of the time had "turned their backs on the Abrahamic God. God took no notice.
People have always fought, leaders are always changing, and everyone claims God's on their side. How was this squabble any different?
How do you know the plans of the Assyrians?
Why not strike at the actual, "murderous perpetrator," rather than Ephraim and his 'women?'
This whole story sounds contrived.

God seems to do nothing to prevent evil. He just capriciously strikes out at random people. And it doesn't seem to work. No-one gets the message and becomes peaceful.
Maybe if the interventions were more direct...

as to how do I know the plans of the Assyrian, that's simple, as it's all written there within the old testament what the plans of the Assyrian are.

Why didn't God not strike at the actual, "murderous perpetrator the Assyrian king, rather than Ephraim and his 'women?'
Because Ephraim knew before they went there, what the murderous king of Assyria was like. But Ephraim went anyway. So who's at fault?

Because the tribe of Ephraim made their choice to follow the Assyrian king and his murderous ways.
So the tribe of Ephraim walk away from God, So God walk away from Ephraim.

The moral of this what's happening here,
Is if people walks away from God, Then God walks away from them.

The closer people walks towards God, the closer God walks towards them

God doesn't force anyone to believe in him nor does God force anyone to stay with him.

As this is what is happening with Ephraim, God isn't going to force Ephraim to stay, but let Ephraim find out for themselves that they had it good with God than without God.

You see what is happening with Ephraim, is a lesson to learn from.
To stay in the protection of God, But if people chooses to walk away from God. Than God walks away from them.
Thereby leaving Ephraim to all kinds of evil.
As Ephraim finds out, it was better to had stayed with God, than to walk away have evil come upon them.

So if you take what is happening with Ephraim and look at what is happening with the United States, that took God out of alot of things.
So the United States like Ephraim walking away from God, So now there's all this evil coming.

People going to schools, collages, all different kinds of places, killing innocent people.

Is that God's fault, why of course not. It's people who are at fault, just like it's Ephraim fault for walking away from God.
So God let Ephraim go. On their own.

You see the old testament is there to learn from what to do and what not to do.

If God did not tolerate his own people Israel doing things.
Why do people think that God will treat them any different or better, God will not.

Let's for say, that you live in an area that your are well protected that no one can get to you in no way.
But now you take upon yourself to walk away to leave that protection.
That now you leave, walk away, now your all on your own to defend for yourself against everything that will come your way and now all your enemies all come at you, because you have no more protection.
Because you walk away from the protection you once had.

What makes people think God's going to protect them and their the ones who are walking away from God
All God doing is setting back watching all the evil come upon people They ask for it.

It's like knowing the difference between day and night.
Knowing when you have it good and knowing the bad. It's people choice to stay with the good or walk away to the bad.

So why didn't God not strike at the actual, "murderous perpetrator the Assyrian king, rather than Ephraim and his 'women?'
The problem with that is, God didn't strike Ephraim and the women, it was Ephraim choice to go to the murderous king of Assyria,
As Ephraim knew before they went there, What the murderous king of Assyria was like before they went there. But Ephraim went anyway.
 
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Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Sounds like hearsay, at best.
The OT isn't known for its historical accuracy.

That's why to day, we have the necessary tools to translate languages into English language,
Where as those people back 400 to 1000 years ago, did the best they could with what limited tools they had to translate the Greek and Hebrew Languages into the English language
But to day, we can go on the internet to Library's to find what we need to translate languages.
Where people back didn't have that advantage as we do to day..
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Seeing that you said, that you do have a good understanding on exactly what the bible says.

Ok, then explain exactly how the 6th commandment law of God's
( Thou Shalt Not Kill)
How does this fit to work with abortions.
The same reason it doesn't apply to plants. I already explained this.

Historically fetuses were not considered living until the either a little prior to quickening or after quickening. They were not yet considered alive to kill, let alone a person with all the rights that entails.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
as to how do I know the plans of the Assyrian, that's simple, as it's all written there within the old testament what the plans of the Assyrian are.

Why didn't God not strike at the actual, "murderous perpetrator the Assyrian king, rather than Ephraim and his 'women?'
Because Ephraim knew before they went there, what the murderous king of Assyria was like. But Ephraim went anyway. So who's at fault?

Because the tribe of Ephraim made their choice to follow the Assyrian king and his murderous ways.
So the tribe of Ephraim walk away from God, So God walk away from Ephraim.

The moral of this what's happening here,
Is if people walks away from God, Then God walks away from them.

The closer people walks towards God, the closer God walks towards them

God doesn't force anyone to believe in him nor does God force anyone to stay with him.

As this is what is happening with Ephraim, God isn't going to force Ephraim to stay, but let Ephraim find out for themselves that they had it good with God than without God.

You see what is happening with Ephraim, is a lesson to learn from.
To stay in the protection of God, But if people chooses to walk away from God. Than God walks away from them.
Thereby leaving Ephraim to all kinds of evil.
As Ephraim finds out, it was better to had stayed with God, than to walk away have evil come upon them.

So if you take what is happening with Ephraim and look at what is happening with the United States, that took God out of alot of things.
So the United States like Ephraim walking away from God, So now there's all this evil coming.

People going to schools, collages, all different kinds of places, killing innocent people.

Is that God's fault, why of course not. It's people who are at fault, just like it's Ephraim fault for walking away from God.
So God let Ephraim go. On their own.

You see the old testament is there to learn from what to do and what not to do.

If God did not tolerate his own people Israel doing things.
Why do people think that God will treat them any different or better, God will not.

Let's for say, that you live in an area that your are well protected that no one can get to you in no way.
But now you take upon yourself to walk away to leave that protection.
That now you leave, walk away, now your all on your own to defend for yourself against everything that will come your way and now all your enemies all come at you, because you have no more protection.
Because you walk away from the protection you once had.

What makes people think God's going to protect them and their the ones who are walking away from God
All God doing is setting back watching all the evil come upon people They ask for it.

It's like knowing the difference between day and night.
Knowing when you have it good and knowing the bad. It's people choice to stay with the good or walk away to the bad.

So why didn't God not strike at the actual, "murderous perpetrator the Assyrian king, rather than Ephraim and his 'women?'
The problem with that is, God didn't strike Ephraim and the women, it was Ephraim choice to go to the murderous king of Assyria,
As Ephraim knew before they went there, What the murderous king of Assyria was like before they went there. But Ephraim went anyway.

Can you be specific about "Assyria" today and what the threat is?
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
In speaking about abortions

According to man's laws, If a person kills another person, then that person will either pay the price by his life in the death penalty.
Or in some cases, they'll go to prison for the rest of their life for taking the life of another.

But yet in Abortions this contradicts the laws of man's.
That on one hand if you kill someone, then you face the death penalty or prison

But in Abortions, you can kill without any consequences. This is a contradiction of man's laws

For some unknown reason, people thinks God is for abortions. The reason for this, people cherry pick verses out of the Bible and then try to imply them to abortions.

Not realizing that God's law "Thou Shalt Not Kill" stands in the way of Abortions.

What does it mean "Thou Shalt Not Kill?

This means do not take an innocent life. Such as babies in Abortions or kill someone without a cause. Did that person kill in self defense in the fear of their life being taken.

Now to kill in self defense, that's permissable by God. As your allowed by God to defend yourself or Country when attack.

But to take an innocent life in abortions, God does not and will not stand by it.

As I would like to know how this is going to work and fit in God's
ten commandments law
The 6th commandment plainly says
"Thou Shalt Not Kill"

Then how is God for abortions, but yet be found saying "Thou Shalt Not Kill"
In taking innocent life.

So how is this to work and how does
"Thou Shalt Not Kill" fit into Abortions?

That no matter how a person
trys to cut it,
It still stands with God
"Thou Shalt Not Kill"
Cherry picking and redefining words do not make a compelling argument.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
The same reason it doesn't apply to plants. I already explained this.

Historically fetuses were not considered living until the either a little prior to quickening or after quickening. They were not yet considered alive to kill, let alone a person with all the rights that entails.
Not to mention the specific law he's referring to is "thou shalt not murder" which is subtly but significantly different.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That's right, so how does ( Thou Shalt Not Kill) fit with Abortions. How is that to work.
Throughout the bible tells why God is against abortions?
So how does ( Thou Shalt Not Kill) work
Let me ask you a question: How does going to war work when you can't kill? How does policing work? How does sending people into poverty where they can't make ends meet work? How does ignoring something like climate change which could wipe out large portions of the population work? How does competing for life in capitalism work? How does having Nuclear bombs work?
 
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