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Proof of Existence

sealchan

Well-Known Member
In this scenario, @sealchan is attempting to prove to you, dingdao, that he is NOTABOT.

Sealchan has proposed essentially a 2 factor shared key handshake protocol. The shared key is a very abstract metaphor connecting the first factor ( a text-based conversation ) with the second factor ( a seemingly unrelated 2d image ).

The first factor of the handshake was a text-based conversation about how to prove IAMNOTBOT. Another way of looking at this conversation is: Sealchan is trying to tell you, trying to prove to you: "I am in your flock. I am not an OTHER."

The second factor of the handshake was a picture titled Mary had a Little Lamb. In the nursery rhyme, "Mary had a little lamb, whose fleece was white as snow. everywhere that Mary went, the lamb was sure to go."

The shared key is embedded in the content in the nursery rhyme and expression on Mary's face and on the lamb's face in the picture.

Mary is looking down at the lamb, "Are you in my flock? Are you following me?"

The lamb is looking up, answering "I AM in you flock. I AM following you"

This is how the two factors are connected. The connection is the shared key. Sealchan is assuming you know the nursery rhyme and that you will be able to decrypt the intellectual emotional message conveyed in the picture.

The picture represents a challenge/response handshake protocol between Mary and the Lamb. In this case, you, dingdao, are Mary. Sealchan is the lamb. You are asking Sealchan, "are you in my flock, or are you AI?" Sealchan is answering, "I am in your flock, I am not AI".

In this case the metaphor was too abstract. In other words, the shared key was too deeply encrypted in the emotional / intellectual message of the picture.

Your NACK (not acknowledged) means the shared key was too deeply encrypted, and you could not decipher it.

Because of this, in order for Sealchan to continue towards proving that he ISNOTBOT he would either need to ramp down the encryption on the shared key or he would need to start the handshake over from the beginning.

Examples:

Sealchan could send additional different pictures all containing a similar theme, challenge/response, "I am in your flock. I am not OTHER." Each additional picture supporting the others until you, dingdao, deciphered the shared key common to all the pictures sent.

Or

Sealchan starts a new conversation with you. "dingdao, let's start over. What are you reading these days?" You, dingdao, respond, "Thud Hitchhiker's Guide ;)" Then sealchan sends you a picture:

View attachment 27475

The shared key is the abstract detailed shared knowledge of the book where the Space Whale falls from space and goes "thud".

The shared key is encrypted / embedded in the humorous intentional misspelling of The as Thud.

Thud HitchHikers guide, to an AI would probably be translated to "The Hitchhikers Guide" and Thud would be determined to be a typo. But it's actually the challenge in sealchan's proposed 2-factor shared key method for proving he ISNOTBOT. The challenge is, "Did you read this book? What do I mean by Thud?"

Replying with the whale picture in the sky is the correct response to the challenge. The shared key is the detailed knowledge of the book.

This is another example of demonstrating detailed shared knowledge thru abstract metaphor while staying on topic. The shared knowledge is embedded / encrypted in a picture that would be hard for an AI to mimic.

Note: The encryption method for the two keys, "Am I in your flock" and "Did you read this book" are different.

"Am I in your flock" is embedded in the emotional content in the picture.

"Did you read this book" is embedded in the humorous intentional typo The >> Thud.

Since you, dingdao, weren't able to decrypt the first shared key which was encrypted via emotional content; switching to a different encryption method, humorous content, would be a good tactic.

That explains it far better than I attempted to, thanks!

I work in IT and this all came up from my familiarity with the basics of encrypted communications.

The key technologies exploited here that are much better developed in humans than AI include:
  • Image processing
  • Human emotional expression interpretation
  • Metaphorical production and interpretation
  • Cross-referencing all of the above
Metaphorical production is a rich source of information in humans as it relies, predominantly on our experience of cognition in the context of the human body with its motor and sense organs within a world of physical realities which define possibilities. The human brain thinks like a brain in a body in a world and all this processing gives us a level of sophistication in interpreting human utterances that is very hard for any AI these days to keep up with.

If this ever needed to be a practical skill, then I think that many people could develop a skill at it based on their natural proclivities as having a human brain which does this all the time although we hardly notice. My own initial conversation example came about almost automatically as my unconscious knew better than my own conscious understanding what I was attempting to do.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@sealchan,

What's IT?

images
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
In this scenario, @sealchan is attempting to prove to you, dingdao, that he is NOTABOT.

Sealchan has proposed essentially a 2 factor shared key handshake protocol. The shared key is a very abstract metaphor connecting the first factor ( a text-based conversation ) with the second factor ( a seemingly unrelated 2d image ).

The first factor of the handshake was a text-based conversation about how to prove IAMNOTBOT. Another way of looking at this conversation is: Sealchan is trying to tell you, trying to prove to you: "I am in your flock. I am not an OTHER."

The second factor of the handshake was a picture titled Mary had a Little Lamb. In the nursery rhyme, "Mary had a little lamb, whose fleece was white as snow. everywhere that Mary went, the lamb was sure to go."

The shared key is embedded in the content in the nursery rhyme and expression on Mary's face and on the lamb's face in the picture.

Mary is looking down at the lamb, "Are you in my flock? Are you following me?"

The lamb is looking up, answering "I AM in you flock. I AM following you"

This is how the two factors are connected. The connection is the shared key. Sealchan is assuming you know the nursery rhyme and that you will be able to decrypt the intellectual emotional message conveyed in the picture.

The picture represents a challenge/response handshake protocol between Mary and the Lamb. In this case, you, dingdao, are Mary. Sealchan is the lamb. You are asking Sealchan, "are you in my flock, or are you AI?" Sealchan is answering, "I am in your flock, I am not AI".

In this case the metaphor was too abstract. In other words, the shared key was too deeply encrypted in the emotional / intellectual message of the picture.

Your NACK (not acknowledged) means the shared key was too deeply encrypted, and you could not decipher it.

Because of this, in order for Sealchan to continue towards proving that he ISNOTBOT he would either need to ramp down the encryption on the shared key or he would need to start the handshake over from the beginning.

Examples:

Sealchan could send additional different pictures all containing a similar theme, challenge/response, "I am in your flock. I am not OTHER." Each additional picture supporting the others until you, dingdao, deciphered the shared key common to all the pictures sent.

Or

Sealchan starts a new conversation with you. "dingdao, let's start over. What are you reading these days?" You, dingdao, respond, "Thud Hitchhiker's Guide ;)" Then sealchan sends you a picture:

View attachment 27475

The shared key is the abstract detailed shared knowledge of the book where the Space Whale falls from space and goes "thud".

The shared key is encrypted / embedded in the humorous intentional misspelling of The as Thud.

Thud HitchHikers guide, to an AI would probably be translated to "The Hitchhikers Guide" and Thud would be determined to be a typo. But it's actually the challenge in sealchan's proposed 2-factor shared key method for proving he ISNOTBOT. The challenge is, "Did you read this book? What do I mean by Thud?"

Replying with the whale picture in the sky is the correct response to the challenge. The shared key is the detailed knowledge of the book.

This is another example of demonstrating detailed shared knowledge thru abstract metaphor while staying on topic. The shared knowledge is embedded / encrypted in a picture that would be hard for an AI to mimic.

Note: The encryption method for the two keys, "Am I in your flock" and "Did you read this book" are different.

"Am I in your flock" is embedded in the emotional content in the picture.

"Did you read this book" is embedded in the humorous intentional typo The >> Thud.

Since you, dingdao, weren't able to decrypt the first shared key which was encrypted via emotional content; switching to a different encryption method, humorous content, would be a good tactic.


Of course the irony of this approach is that it is modelled after the basic method used by two computer ("AI") programs to authenticate the identity of each other. The difference is, as I mentioned, the "computing technologies" utilized.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member


Information Technology...

But you added a picture so now do I have to authenticate as a non-AI as well? :p

Maybe for this exchange we can leave it as unencrypted. :)

Okay I get the image reference! (I did a google search on "IT clown"). I will attempt a response...

Certainly for many IT is a scary topic which children are sucked into intuitively and caught in its web before they know it. Sometimes, for the naive, it is a subterranean labyrinth where what seems friendly on the surface is a spoof of something much more malevolent.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Of course the irony of this approach is that it is modelled after the basic method used by two computer ("AI") programs to authenticate the identity of each other. The difference is, as I mentioned, the "computing technologies" utilized.
Yup. And...

TheGoogle knows the challenge/response/shared-key for "Am I in you flock" and "Thud Hitchhikers Guide", so those are spoiled.

Which is why multiple posts, establishing rapport, developing layers of decreasing bot-i-tude is more secure than the 2-factor shared key approach.
 
Last edited:

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Certainly for many IT is a scary topic which children are sucked into intuitively and caught in its web before they know it. Sometimes, for the naive, it is a subterranean labyrinth where what seems friendly on the surface is a spoof of something much more malevolent.

Handshake Acknowledged and Accepted fellow hooman.
 

dingdao

The eternal Tao cannot be told - Tao Te Ching
In this scenario, @sealchan is attempting to prove to you, dingdao, that he is NOTABOT.

Sealchan has proposed essentially a 2 factor shared key handshake protocol. The shared key is a very abstract metaphor connecting the first factor ( a text-based conversation ) with the second factor ( a seemingly unrelated 2d image ).

The first factor of the handshake was a text-based conversation about how to prove IAMNOTBOT. Another way of looking at this conversation is: Sealchan is trying to tell you, trying to prove to you: "I am in your flock. I am not an OTHER."

The second factor of the handshake was a picture titled Mary had a Little Lamb. In the nursery rhyme, "Mary had a little lamb, whose fleece was white as snow. everywhere that Mary went, the lamb was sure to go."

The shared key is embedded in the content in the nursery rhyme and expression on Mary's face and on the lamb's face in the picture.

Mary is looking down at the lamb, "Are you in my flock? Are you following me?"

The lamb is looking up, answering "I AM in you flock. I AM following you"

This is how the two factors are connected. The connection is the shared key. Sealchan is assuming you know the nursery rhyme and that you will be able to decrypt the intellectual emotional message conveyed in the picture.

The picture represents a challenge/response handshake protocol between Mary and the Lamb. In this case, you, dingdao, are Mary. Sealchan is the lamb. You are asking Sealchan, "are you in my flock, or are you AI?" Sealchan is answering, "I am in your flock, I am not AI".

In this case the metaphor was too abstract. In other words, the shared key was too deeply encrypted in the emotional / intellectual message of the picture.

Your NACK (not acknowledged) means the shared key was too deeply encrypted, and you could not decipher it.

Because of this, in order for Sealchan to continue towards proving that he ISNOTBOT he would either need to ramp down the encryption on the shared key or he would need to start the handshake over from the beginning.

Examples:

Sealchan could send additional different pictures all containing a similar theme, challenge/response, "I am in your flock. I am not OTHER." Each additional picture supporting the others until you, dingdao, deciphered the shared key common to all the pictures sent.

Or

Sealchan starts a new conversation with you. "dingdao, let's start over. What are you reading these days?" You, dingdao, respond, "Thud Hitchhiker's Guide ;)" Then sealchan sends you a picture:

View attachment 27475

The shared key is the abstract detailed shared knowledge of the book where the Space Whale falls from space and goes "thud".

The shared key is encrypted / embedded in the humorous intentional misspelling of The as Thud.

Thud HitchHikers guide, to an AI would probably be translated to "The Hitchhikers Guide" and Thud would be determined to be a typo. But it's actually the challenge in sealchan's proposed 2-factor shared key method for proving he ISNOTBOT. The challenge is, "Did you read this book? What do I mean by Thud?"

Replying with the whale picture in the sky is the correct response to the challenge. The shared key is the detailed knowledge of the book.

This is another example of demonstrating detailed shared knowledge thru abstract metaphor while staying on topic. The shared knowledge is embedded / encrypted in a picture that would be hard for an AI to mimic.

Note: The encryption method for the two keys, "Am I in your flock" and "Did you read this book" are different.

"Am I in your flock" is embedded in the emotional content in the picture.

"Did you read this book" is embedded in the humorous intentional typo The >> Thud.

Since you, dingdao, weren't able to decrypt the first shared key which was encrypted via emotional content; switching to a different encryption method, humorous content, would be a good tactic.
Congratulations, You have managed to accurately describe why it works, when it works. To me, having a schoolroom backdrop would have been obvious. Then again, whale would not have worked. 42 with mice in the picture would have. It's just what makes an impression on you, especially years later.
 

dingdao

The eternal Tao cannot be told - Tao Te Ching
Huh? How does that prove a person exists? Are you saying people, made by a Creator God, can themselves create?
What I am attempting to do is to establish the the entity you are communicating with is a person.
Just how real the things are that people create is open to debate.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Congratulations, You have managed to accurately describe why it works, when it works. To me, having a schoolroom backdrop would have been obvious. Then again, whale would not have worked. 42 with mice in the picture would have. It's just what makes an impression on you, especially years later.

Finding a "key" then becomes its own challenge, perhaps going back to the need for shared specialized knowledge. Getting lazy and using the same key over and over would probably open the door for automation to train up to improve its ability to spoof non-bot-ness. People who share cultural backgrounds growing up closer in time and under similar educational circumstances in similar regions will probably have more in common. You would need key servers that could suggest keys between individuals perhaps. Part of the price paid for "bot-avoidance" I suppose should that become a thing.
 

dingdao

The eternal Tao cannot be told - Tao Te Ching
Finding a "key" then becomes its own challenge, perhaps going back to the need for shared specialized knowledge. Getting lazy and using the same key over and over would probably open the door for automation to train up to improve its ability to spoof non-bot-ness. People who share cultural backgrounds growing up closer in time and under similar educational circumstances in similar regions will probably have more in common. You would need key servers that could suggest keys between individuals perhaps. Part of the price paid for "bot-avoidance" I suppose should that become a thing.
Bingo
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
What I am attempting to do is to establish the the entity you are communicating with is a person.
Just how real the things are that people create is open to debate.

As I wrote, prove you exist, I'll prove God exists in Jesus. YOU have the simpler burden.
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
Earthling wanted to prove the existence of the soul. Let's start with something much simpler.

Prove to me that you are not a bot.

I will quote those responses I find interesting.

Welp, I have successfully answered to this Captcha things. Uhhh sometimes. Some days, I'm half asleep or the traffic light overlaps on edges and it is not clear whether that counts or not.

Of course, a real bot designed for that program would always get through.
 
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