Skwim
Veteran Member
Which the Bible says god creates. God purposely leaves people alone so that they lack good. Nice guy.
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Assuming THE FLOOD Did Happen . . .
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
Were the Pharisees purely "legalistic" thinkers? Or were they "discerning and critical thinkers"?
Jesus said that they had made God's word "invalid" because of their "tradition". That tradition involved interpretation of the law that went way above and beyond what God intended.
As an example, when Jesus and his disciples walked through a wheat field on the Sabbath and grabbed a few grains of wheat on their way through. (Luke 6:1-11) The Pharisees accused them of 'harvesting and threshing' on the Sabbath. And performing his healing miracles on the Sabbath was viewed with disdain as well.
The Sabbath was a day of rest from "work" and mundane chores. It was a day to devote to spiritual matters and reflection and meditation on spiritual things. If the son of God can grab a few grains of wheat without it being "work" or to heal the sick on their day of rest, then the Pharisees had nit-picked the law to death, legalistically speaking. Killing a flea on the Sabbath was considered "hunting". Seriously!
They were so concerned with the "letter of the Law" and their own rigid interpretation of it, that they lost sight of the spirit of it. They used the Talmud to go above the Law and accuse Jesus of Sabbath breaches and blasphemy.
sooda
Veteran Member
Were the Pharisees purely "legalistic" thinkers? Or were they "discerning and critical thinkers"?
Jesus said that they had made God's word "invalid" because of their "tradition". That tradition involved interpretation of the law that went way above and beyond what God intended.
As an example, when Jesus and his disciples walked through a wheat field on the Sabbath and grabbed a few grains of wheat on their way through. (Luke 6:1-11) The Pharisees accused them of 'harvesting and threshing' on the Sabbath. And performing his healing miracles on the Sabbath was viewed with disdain as well.
The Sabbath was a day of rest from "work" and mundane chores. It was a day to devote to spiritual matters and reflection and meditation on spiritual things. If the son of God can grab a few grains of wheat without it being "work" or to heal the sick on their day of rest, then the Pharisees had nit-picked the law to death, legalistically speaking. Killing a flea on the Sabbath was considered "hunting". Seriously!
They were so concerned with the "letter of the Law" and their own rigid interpretation of it, that they lost sight of the spirit of it. They used the Talmud to go above the Law and accuse Jesus of Sabbath breaches and blasphemy.
Pretty obvious Jesus wasn't talking about ALL Pharisees.
He told his disciples to....“Watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy." (Luke 12:1)
Leaven is often used in scripture to denote a corrupting agency. The bread at the Passover was unleavened, signifying the Passover Lamb's sinless state.
Jesus also said in Matthew 23:13-15....
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in. . . .
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves."
It doesn't appear as if Jesus was only referring to some of the Pharisees.....but collectively as a group. They all adhered to the same teachings, and as a group connived to have Jesus put to death.
sooda
Veteran Member
The Pharisees were a religious and political party based in Palestine during the times of Jesus Christ. They were established in the 2nd Century B.C. by a faithful group of Jews called the Hasidim.
The Greek influence had eroded Judaism, so the Hasidim arose in response by holding strictly to the Jewish ritual laws.
The Hasidim were greatly used by God when the Syrian King Antiochus IV attempted to annihilate Judaism. The Hasidim took part in the revolt of the Maccabees to successfully defend the faith.
The Essenes and the Pharisees sprung from this movement. The Essenes split from known Judaism and established their own Jewish communities.
The Pharisees remained in the traditional Jewish establishments, becoming a strong part of the Greek and Jewish government. They soon found their members being placed on the Sanhedrin, which was the supreme court and legislative body of the Jewish nation.
You know what happens when pure religion is mixed with politics! You guessed it. The Pharisees' faith became compromised when mixed with the politics of the day. Another key factor in the issue we're discussing is that much earlier before the Pharisees existed, the Jewish priests lost respect from the common Jewish people because they fell into corruption. This left the scribes to interpret and teach God's law to the people.
The scribes built what became known as the "tradition of the elders" which gave instruction to the Jews. It was honored and the teachings became accepted by the Pharisees.
The Pharisees also taught that God's law was made up of specifically 613 scriptural laws.
Read more: http://www.graspinggod.com/jesus-and-the-pharisees.html#ixzz5hNATJLDR
sooda
Veteran Member
Jesus said in Matthew 23:2, "The teachers of religious law [scribes] and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the law of Moses. So practice and obey whatever they tell you."
That is a ringing endorsement by Jesus.
"Listen to them, people, and obey them because they KNOW what they're talking about!"
Read more: http://www.graspinggod.com/jesus-and-the-pharisees.html#ixzz5hNBIZyf5
That is a ringing endorsement by Jesus.
"Listen to them, people, and obey them because they KNOW what they're talking about!"
Read more: http://www.graspinggod.com/jesus-and-the-pharisees.html#ixzz5hNBIZyf5
A ringing endorsement?! Are you serious? If one ignores all that Jesus said after this you might have a case.....
How about the following verses...?
“The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4 They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger." (NASB)
Seating themselves in the chair of Moses meant that they were in positions of authority in the Jewish arrangement, but saying that they had "seated themselves" in it, wasn't exactly an endorsement. So whatever they said to do according to the Law of Moses, Jesus told them to do it because the Jewish system with its 'old covenant' was still in force, until Jesus laid down his life after instituting the 'new covenant' with his disciples on the night before he died.
Then you have the rest of the chapter....read it all and then tell me what kind of endorsement Jesus gave them.
Matthew 23 is Jesus telling you the exact opposite....in fact his closing words were of 'abandonment' of an unfaithful nation of serial covenant breakers....those who would never say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”
sooda
Veteran Member
A ringing endorsement?! Are you serious? If one ignores all that Jesus said after this you might have a case.....
How about the following verses...?
“The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4 They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger." (NASB)
Seating themselves in the chair of Moses meant that they were in positions of authority in the Jewish arrangement, but saying that they had "seated themselves" in it, wasn't exactly an endorsement. So whatever they said to do according to the Law of Moses, Jesus told them to do it because the Jewish system with its 'old covenant' was still in force, until Jesus laid down his life after instituting the 'new covenant' with his disciples on the night before he died.
Then you have the rest of the chapter....read it all and then tell me what kind of endorsement Jesus gave them.
Matthew 23 is Jesus telling you the exact opposite....in fact his closing words were of 'abandonment' of an unfaithful nation of serial covenant breakers....those who would never say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”
Don't you think its weird that Jesus turns against the Pharisees in Matthew?
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
. . . what did it accomplish?
From the way things went afterwards---sin still remaining high on the lists of a lot of people, and rampant throughout the world---it seems to me the whole operation was a waste of life, good water, and gopher wood.
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I'm reminded of this talk that Matt Dilahunty once did. It's on youtube somewhere, where you gives you some kind of karikature of the bible stories. It's funny, because it's basicly accurate.
He talks about how everything constantly goes wrong for god in the bible and how he has to constantly start over in trying to fix his mistakes. And every time it goes all to sh*t again.
... until he comes down to earth himself to sacrifice himself to himself to save us from himself and... uh-oh, spoiler alert: it goes wrong again.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
When I hear christians talk about other christians, i'ld say that is a very optimistic statistic.
Because how many of those are actually TRUE christians??? ;-)
Skwim
Veteran Member
Yup. Every so often I'll read that X isn't a real (true) Christian because he believes or doesn't believe 1,2, and 3.
It makes me smile at the conceit.
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Which the Bible says god creates. God purposely leaves people alone so that they lack good. Nice guy.
That happens, when people want to reject God and be without Him.
Evil actions are actions that are done without love and without goodness. And they become possible only, when good is rejected.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
That is a claim that you need to support. How are you going to do that?
Not at all....do you?
Just taking Israel's past history into account, by the time Jesus arrived to take up his mission as Messiah, the Jews are so far off the rails in their worship, that he said he was not sent to correct its arrogant shepherds, but to find the "sheep" that became "lost" because of their negligence and hypocrisy. These "lost sheep" formed the foundations of Christianity. Christ led them out of that thoroughly corrupted system and made a "new covenant" with them to rule in his Kingdom. All of the first Christians were Jewish but because the system was so entrenched among the people, only a remnant of fleshly Jews responded as it was foretold. (Romans 9:27-29)
sooda
Veteran Member
You do know they were LOST long before Jesus was born, don't you?
The scriptural basis for the idea of "10 Lost Tribes" is 2 Kings 17:6: "In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria captured Samaria and deported the Israelites to Assyria.
He settled them in Halah, in Gozan on the Habor River and in the towns of the Medes."
According to the Hebrew Bible, Jacob (who was later named Israel; Genesis 35:10) had 12 sons and at least one daughter (Dinah) by two wives and two concubines. The twelve sons fathered the twelve Tribes of Israel.
Paul's letter to the Romans wasn't written until late 55/early 56 or late 56/early 57.
The prevailing form of Judaism in Jesus' day was a corruption of the original worship formulated by God when he formed Israel into a nation. That nation was lost spiritually more times than you can poke a stick at.
God kept correcting them and they would stubbornly rebel, but unless he brought them to their knees, they would not repent. They would then experience his blessing for a time, until old habits set in again. The time came when his part of the covenant was fulfilled and he cast them off as incorrigible. (Matthew 23:37-39) Jesus was sent only to the "lost sheep", not to the Pharisees for whom he had no good thing to say.
In order to keep his promise to Abraham, he put up with a lot from that stiff necked people, but as Jesus said, he was not sent to clean up the old religion but to release the "lost sheep" from their condemned condition and elevate them to the status that the Jewish leaders wanted....places of prominence in the Kingdom of God. They swapped places. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus pictured this. The Pharisees were livid!
Didn't need the history lesson but anyways.....
For Christians, the only thing that matters is what took place after Jesus died. Israel was "abandoned" because of their unfaithfulness....they can no longer claim that being 'sons of Abraham' has any meaning because they broke the covenant and therefore God was under no obligation to keep them as his people....he chose a new nation, under a new covenant, one that Paul called "the Israel of God"....not fleshly Israel but a congregation of Christ's disciples who were now made up of both Jews and Gentiles. (Matthew 3:7-12; Galatians 6:16; Acts 15:14) This was a new "Israel"....a spiritual nation chosen by God.
What does that have to do with anything? I am always bemused by the fact that people point to when a scripture was written rather than to see "all scripture is inspired of God". (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
Either the Bible is God's word or it is the words of men. Either all of it is inspired...or none of it is. I know what I believe about scripture.....all of it is inspired and therefore useful for getting to the truth of everything.
What about you?
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
I just went to the toilet. No love or goodness there - believe you me!!
Therefor, going to the toilet is evil.
There seems to be something wrong with your definition of evil.
Maxumus Cordoba
New Member
agreed, it didn't achieve anything. But on the film Noah, there is a scene where Noah wraps the snake skin around the arm of a survivor. This is symbolic of showing that the serpent seed was passed on in Noah and his family. But I dont assume that it happened anyway.. I dont think it did happen.. . . what did it accomplish?
From the way things went afterwards---sin still remaining high on the lists of a lot of people, and rampant throughout the world---it seems to me the whole operation was a waste of life, good water, and gopher wood.
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