Kim Rounsley
New Member
As a Catholic, I have only been exposed to what my religion thinks. I am curious as to what others that are not in my faith think.
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Differing Ideas on the Holy Trinity and the Nature of God
- Thread starter Kim Rounsley
- Start date
George Dallas
New Member
We Mormons have differing opinions to you guys on the idea of the trinity. I have heard that to you the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are are one God in three forms. we, however see the three as distinct individuals who have distinct differences. They think together as one, though.
Hi Kim and welcome to RF.
The Baha'i Faith believes in a Creator God and is monotheistic. We see that our God has provided the inspiration for all the Great Faiths including Judaism, Christianity, Islam and more recently the Baha'i Faith.
A triune God can appear to somewhat contradict monotheism. The Trinity is not mentioned at all in the New Testament but arose in the 4th century through the Nicene Creed. Muhammad advised that it would be better not to use the word Trinity. The Baha'i Faith sees merit in exploring the close relationship between Jesus as Son of God, the Father and the Holy Spirit. However the Nicene Creed and doctrines concerning the Trinity are not part of our Faith.
The Baha'i Faith believes in a Creator God and is monotheistic. We see that our God has provided the inspiration for all the Great Faiths including Judaism, Christianity, Islam and more recently the Baha'i Faith.
A triune God can appear to somewhat contradict monotheism. The Trinity is not mentioned at all in the New Testament but arose in the 4th century through the Nicene Creed. Muhammad advised that it would be better not to use the word Trinity. The Baha'i Faith sees merit in exploring the close relationship between Jesus as Son of God, the Father and the Holy Spirit. However the Nicene Creed and doctrines concerning the Trinity are not part of our Faith.
Hindus have no view on the Christian trinity. Outside our paradigm.
Remté
Active Member
In Islam the Holy Trinity is considered idolatry. Particularly calling Jesus God's son is very much objected to for various reasons. For istance in that God does not need a son and on that it makes Jesus as a prophet much different from other prophets. While in Islam all prophets are equal. They have still the same God as the Christians so I'm not sure what to say say about the nature of God.
the spirit of god, and the son(created) of god are; along with god, are the three. god the father(originator) is greater but all 3 are relevant. basically god is the cause, spirit is the force, and creation is the result.
arthra
Baha'i
As to the "Trinity" there is a reference in the Baha'i sources:
"....as to the question of the Trinity, know, O advancer unto God, that in each one of the cycles wherein the Lights have shone forth upon the horizons (i. e., in each prophetic dispensation) and the Forgiving Lord hath revealed Himself on Mount Paran (see Habbakkuk 3:3, etc.) or Mount Sinai, or Mount Seir (see Ezekiel 35), there are necessarily three things:
The Giver of Grace, and the Grace, and the Recipient of the Grace;
the Source of the Effulgence, and the Effulgence, and the Recipient of the Effulgence; the Illuminator, and the Illumination, and Illuminated."
~ Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 117
As to the "Nature of God":
"All the people have formed a god in the world of thought, and that form of their own imagination they worship; when the fact is that the imagined form is finite and the human mind is infinite. Surely the infinite is greater than the finite, for imagination is accidental while the mind is essential; surely the essential is greater than the accidental.
Therefore consider: All the sects and peoples worship their own thought; they create a god in their own minds and acknowledge him to be the creator of all things, when that form is a superstition -- thus people adore and worship imagination."
"That Essence of the Divine Entity and the Unseen of the unseen is holy above imagination and is beyond thought. Consciousness doth not reach It. Within the capacity of comprehension of a produced reality that Ancient Reality cannot be contained. It is a different world; from it there is no information; arrival thereat is impossible; attainment thereto is prohibited and inaccessible. This much is known: It exists and Its existence is certain and proven -- but the condition is unknown."
~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 381
Comparing Athanasian Christians (aka Trinitarians) with Christians in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS Christians).
LDS Christians and Athanasian Christians both believe:
The Father is 100% divine.
The Son of God, Jesus Christ is 100% divine.
The Holy Spirit is 100% divine.
The Father, Son, and Spirit are all without beginning nor end.
The Father is not the Son, nor vice verse. Neither of them are the Spirit.
The Father, Son, and Spirit together are 1 God.
The difference comes in:
LDS Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through unity.
Athanasian Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through a shared substance.
LDS Christians and Athanasian Christians both believe:
The Father is 100% divine.
The Son of God, Jesus Christ is 100% divine.
The Holy Spirit is 100% divine.
The Father, Son, and Spirit are all without beginning nor end.
The Father is not the Son, nor vice verse. Neither of them are the Spirit.
The Father, Son, and Spirit together are 1 God.
The difference comes in:
LDS Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through unity.
Athanasian Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through a shared substance.
My personal view is that studying the Bible reveals more scripture that disproves the trinity than supports it.
There is no trinity in the Bible unless you interpret certain passages in the Bible to "suggest" that its true.
The words "trinity", "triune" or "godhead" do not appear anywhere in the NT....and the Jews worshipped one God ...Yahweh. (Deuteronomy 6:4)
There are so many Bible verses that prove the trinity is false.....e.g, Jesus said that "The Father is Greater than I am". (John 14:28) If they are both "God" then that cannot be true.
It also says that 'the Father knows things that the son does not' (Matthew 24:36).....if they are both God, that is not possible either.
In John 20:17 Jesus said that he was 'returning to his God and Father'....how can God be his own God and Father?
On the night before his death Jesus prayed....“Father, if you want to, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” (Luke 22:42) How can the will of the Father be different to the will of the same God?
John 1:18...."No man has seen God at any time". How many people saw Jesus?
On his return to heaven Jesus still calls his Father "my God" (Revelation 3:12) Does God have a God even in heaven?
And it is also said that Jesus is "the beginning of God's creation". (Revelation 3: 14) If Jesus is God, he was not created.
These are just a few....there are many more.
I have become increasingly apatheistic and ignostic in recent years, and increasingly convinced that so should religion. Even mainstream abrahamics.
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
I recommend the book "Delighting in the Trinity" by Michael Reeves
I think looking at the Trinity as relational is helpful
The trining means one in essence and three in persons (not one = three)
definitely worth hearing
Delighting in the Trinity from Together for the Gospel 2016
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
First of all, welcome to RF.
As a fellow Catholic (recent reconversion-- a long story), I think that the concept of the Trinity is just that-- a concept. Now, whether it's a correct concept or not I simply do not know, nor do I lose any sleep over it as there's a LOT of things I do not know.
tigger2
Active Member
metis wrote: "As a fellow Catholic (recent reconversion-- a long story), I think that the concept of the Trinity is just that-- a concept. Now, whether it's a correct concept or not I simply do not know, nor do I lose any sleep over it as there's a LOT of things I do not know."
Some things are much more important than others. Knowing God can mean eternal life.
"Father .... And this is the way to have eternal life—by knowing you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth! "- John 17:1, 3, TLB.
Some things are much more important than others. Knowing God can mean eternal life.
"Father .... And this is the way to have eternal life—by knowing you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth! "- John 17:1, 3, TLB.
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
I think it's best not to leave it as an abstraction and think of it relationally. The Trinity makes it possible to have love, communication and community from one end of eternity to another. Without it... power and majesty is primary and love is secondary.... with it love and majesty go together and always were together
A song for the Trinity
see the rewrite of and to the tune of the song "Above all power"
rewrite of Above All Powers
Before all others, there God, the one
And in that glory was love between father and a son
Communion. joy majesty and care
it would fill eternity to share.
chorus
Coming from the throne joy poured out a song,
worlds were born to make His story known
Painting praise through stars and mouths of littlest ones,
and roses reflecting his glory, ruined and fallen on the ground, He picked them up, breathed on them then wove into His crown.
He picked me up and wove me into His crown.
love pleased love to love even me
Before any angel or any star
Before any creature would magnify his worth
There were heights and depths and breadths in God
it would take profound mercy to show.
repeat chorus.
Before all confusion, before all tears,
Before all sadness and the hunger games began
Before my fears, my prayer, before my highest hopes
Love pleased love to make a way for me to come home
Death will die A bride prepared for a beloved son
Purified, radiant and in love
Emptied himself, despising my thorns and for joy laid his own life down
repeat chorus.
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Welcome Kim, great to.see you here. As a Baha'i I would offer much the same as what Adrian and Arthra posted, but can add that we see the Trinity as like the Sun in a mirror.
God is exalted and unknowable in Essence but shines in the perfect mirror of Jesus upon all humanity in attributes.
When we look at Jesus the Christ we see the perfect reflection of the Holy Spirit and thus we can say we also see God. When we look at Jesus the man, we see a man like unto us.
I personally see that is sound in scripture.
Regards Tony
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
To me, the single most important teaching of Jesus is to love God, all people, and all of God's creation. One simply does not have to accept the Trinitarian concept in order to believe as such.
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
Jesus did call God Father often
and there is a Son of God motif in the Old Testament
surely it points to something important
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
It's actually not so much the "son of God" reference that's important, as all Jewish men were considered sons of God, but the "Son of Man" words, which is considered to be a messianic reference from the Tanakh.
As an atheist, my feeling is that it's premature to try to decide what God's characteristics are before it's been established - or even established as likely - that God exists at all.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I put it all down. Rather than pontificate, I felt that it's much more productive to just sit down and observe on terms that are not my own.