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Did Christ Die For Nothing?

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Thank for sharing your view... or is this more than a view? Are you saying, you know? I'm not sure. You tell me.

Again where did I say, I know more than Christ?
Would I be correct if I suggested that you think that no one should say what they believe, unless it lines up with what you believe, because then to you that means they think they know more than Christ?
I really would like to know, so please tell me.

It's not my view, it's what is written, But you would never know this and its obvious that you don't
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
I think you raised some good questions, so I would be interested in your views on Revelation 20:13, 14
You apparently see the sea, death, and Hell / Hades as symbolizing something, so I am interested in hearing your interpretation. Also the second death.
How do you view these, and what does the verse mean to you?

Look they are not my views, it's what is written, As it is written in
Revelation 22:18-19, That it's forbidden to add unto or delete from the book of Revelation.
Actually what Christ Jesus is saying and given in Revelation is very much explanatory,
So it doesn't take our views
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
You may believe that but you cannot possibly know that. It is virtually impossible for you or anyone else to go back nearly 2000+ years and check out the literally thousands of narratives that are in the Bible.

Instead, my view is to take what the Bible teaches that may be applicable today even thought there are some "variations", as theologians call them. The JW's do this, btw, that sometimes includes ignoring some Biblical teachings as just being "ritualistic".

IOW, pretty much like all denominations, the JW's pick & choose.
Well yes, I believe that the Bible is harmonious and accurate, and I believe it is based on how one understands it.
For example, say 1000 people read the Bible through, and had 1000 different interpretations. Let's say 750 thought that the Bible is full of contradictions, and somewhat confusing. Another 200 felt uncertain as to whether they could trust it, and 49 felt it was indeed trustworthy, but they found that there were, just a few conflicts with their view and a few texts, but they are willing to work with it. Then there is this 1 that believes the Bible is completely trustworthy, and they find that when they make adjustments to how they understand it - in other words, when they found conflicts with their view, and the text, they tried adjusting their view, till finally. Snap!

source.gif


They saw that their views and scripture were no longer conflicting, but a picture came together, when taking all the texts from Genesis right through to Revelation.
@metis at times, one or two pieces may look like they fit perfectly, but on closer inspection it may have to be removed and switched with another, but it's not major, and all the pieces are there.
Do you think that one person will feel that they have to go back in time to when the first scroll was penned?

There is no need to imo, for the following reasons.
1. The texts were written; meticulously copied; painfully preserved, for a reason. Let's make an assumption, that this is the case, because God wanted people to come to know him, and his will and purpose for the earth, and mankind. After all, the Bible is about God, from the first page to the last, and it covers what people call, "the grand plan of salvation" - from man's beginning to future never ending life. So it's not a big assumption.
I think an interesting person would go about testing the assumption. What does the evidence show?

2. From what we know, or accept, the Bible was written over a period of about 1600 years, by about 40 different writers, of various backgrounds, many living years apart.
Yet, as the gif above illustrates, it appears to have one harmonious theme, which runs like a seamless thread right through it, from beginning to end.
I don't know about you, but I have never opened a puzzle box and found pieces that did not fit to create a picture, so I know that the manufacturer designed the picture, and cut out the pieces in such a way as to fit perfectly together.
The books of the Bible seem to be written in such a way - one fits the other. I could give many examples, but perhaps I will do that when I show why the Bible does not fit myth or fable.
Nevertheless , if 25 people from around the globe, who never met, each found an artifact that seems to be a piece belonging to something larger, were to sell their artifact to a central world museum, and when these pieces were put together, they fit perfectly to form some relic, I would think that someone was responsible for the relic - not the 25 men.
In the same way... I think you see the picture - one unified message, 40 different writers - hence one author. In my view, that would be God.

3. The Bible, I have found, spells out for us what to do, if we want to know the truth, and be saved.

I already mentioned the other evidence that convinces me, so there is no need to repeat. However, in the mind of interest persons, who examined the evidence, there is no doubt in their mind... there is no doubt in my mind, that the Bible is true - As Jesus said - God's word. John 17:17

When I read the Bible daily, and study and meditate on what I read, it's like a dim room that gets lighter and lighter till you can see all the objects in the room clearly.
Like this...
sunrisealarmclock_pick.gif


The reason for that is not due to any special wisdom or ability.
When I see scriptures fulfilled right before my eyes, in realtime, it sends my mind instantly, back into the past to the first so-called mythological book in the Bible... For God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.. . .(Genesis 3:5)

Then my mind fasts forward...
"There is no law but 'Do what thou will'"

quote-definition-of-good-and-evil-good-is-what-you-like-evil-is-what-you-don-t-like-anton-szandor-lavey-72-51-07.jpg
"There is no such thing as good and evil - right or wrong."
"Truth is relative. You decide your own truth."

When I see the world conditions deteriorating at an incredibly rapid rate - legalization of gay marriage; practically accepting bestiality, and bordering on condoning pedophilia; raping of babies like there is no tomorrow, and the plague of pornography - sex worship -- spreading like wildfire, what reasons do I have for doubting the Bible, which clearly shows why these things are so, and warned of their coming. The prophecies are plenty, and I am seeing their fulfillment.

Not only does the Bible tell us about these things, it gives practical direction on how to live, and avoid bad things, which serves as a protection.

Some may think we haven't done our homework, but we have.
I value truth, and I have no agenda, as some have suggested... and they can feel free to suggest it.
I go with what the evidence tells us is the truth.
I believe the main thing is to recognition it - Matthew 24:45

I think JWs do a good job of picking and choosing - picking out the good, from the bad. That's why they stay away from those religious buildings where people go and warm benches, and go away just as confused as they went in.
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
Look they are not my views, it's what is written, As it is written in
Revelation 22:18-19, That it's forbidden to add unto or delete from the book of Revelation.
Actually what Christ Jesus is saying and given in Revelation is very much explanatory,
So it doesn't take our views
I don't understand.
I read Revelation 20:13, 14, which reads...
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

You asked...
Have you any idea what sea represents in Revelation. And Who is death according to the bible/scriptures. What is the name of death.
And who does the dead represents in the bible/ scriptures. So who's the Dead represents?
Have you any idea what the second death represents in Revelation.
And who is death and what is the name of death according to the bible/scriptures


So it seems that by asking what they represent, you are thinking the mean something, so I was asking what you think they meant, but I am sorry. I should have answered your questions.
I can only tell you what I believe though.
Say I take it as it is written, the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell hades (the grave)delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works

I think it means exactly what it says, and it seems to fit Jesus' words.
John 5:28, 29
28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

With regard to verse 14, the angel simply said, "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death".
So it seem to me that the angel is speaking of an end to death and the grave. Interestingly the angel did not say the sea is cast into the lake of fire.
Again, this seems to me to be in harmony with other scriptures which speak of an end to death - including the one here... (Revelation 21:4) . . .And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
I don't understand.
I read Revelation 20:13, 14, which reads...
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

You asked...
Have you any idea what sea represents in Revelation. And Who is death according to the bible/scriptures. What is the name of death.
And who does the dead represents in the bible/ scriptures. So who's the Dead represents?
Have you any idea what the second death represents in Revelation.
And who is death and what is the name of death according to the bible/scriptures


So it seems that by asking what they represent, you are thinking the mean something, so I was asking what you think they meant, but I am sorry. I should have answered your questions.
I can only tell you what I believe though.
Say I take it as it is written, the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell hades (the grave)delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works

I think it means exactly what it says, and it seems to fit Jesus' words.
John 5:28, 29
28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

With regard to verse 14, the angel simply said, "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death".
So it seem to me that the angel is speaking of an end to death and the grave. Interestingly the angel did not say the sea is cast into the lake of fire.
Again, this seems to me to be in harmony with other scriptures which speak of an end to death - including the one here... (Revelation 21:4) . . .And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”


Here's Revelation 20:13, 14, which reads...
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works"

Ok, so what does the sea (water) represents according to Revelation 17:15--"And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues"
So here we find water representing , people, and multitudes, and nation's, and tongues.
Now seeing back above in verse 13, we have ( sea) which is big body of water, which will represent, people and nation's.Ok

Who's is Death, Well according to the book of Hebrews 2:14, we'll find Death is another name for Satan, The Devil.

Hebrews 2:14--"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil"

Note the Devil (Satan) had the power of death.
Death is just another name for Satan.

In Revelation 12:9, here we find Satan has many names, The dragon, old serpent, Devil, and Satan.
Revelation 12:9--"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him"

So here we find that Satan has many names. So seeing Satan is also called the Devil, which back in Hebrews 2:14 we find here the Devil that had the power of Death, which is Satan himself.
For Satan is Death. Satan = Death

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

This being death ( Satan) and hell were cast into the lake of fire,

I'll tell you what read Revelation 20:13-14
And Hebrews 2:14 and Revelation 12:9.
And Revelation 17:15
And keep in mind ( Devil) ( Satan)

And Water ( sea) Represents People, Nation's and multitudes of people.
In Revelation 17:15.

Have you got so far ?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Here's Revelation 20:13, 14, which reads...
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works"

Ok, so what does the sea (water) represents according to Revelation 17:15--"And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues"
So here we find water representing , people, and multitudes, and nation's, and tongues.
Now seeing back above in verse 13, we have ( sea) which is big body of water, which will represent, people and nation's.Ok

Who's is Death, Well according to the book of Hebrews 2:14, we'll find Death is another name for Satan, The Devil.

Hebrews 2:14--"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil"

Note the Devil (Satan) had the power of death.
Death is just another name for Satan.

In Revelation 12:9, here we find Satan has many names, The dragon, old serpent, Devil, and Satan.
Revelation 12:9--"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him"

So here we find that Satan has many names. So seeing Satan is also called the Devil, which back in Hebrews 2:14 we find here the Devil that had the power of Death, which is Satan himself.
For Satan is Death. Satan = Death

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

This being death ( Satan) and hell were cast into the lake of fire,

I'll tell you what read Revelation 20:13-14
And Hebrews 2:14 and Revelation 12:9.
And Revelation 17:15
And keep in mind ( Devil) ( Satan)

And Water ( sea) Represents People, Nation's and multitudes of people.
In Revelation 17:15.

Have you got so far ?
So you are saying, these are not your views, or what you believe...but what Jesus Christ is saying, and you know what Jesus Christ is saying... Okay.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
So you are saying, these are not your views, or what you believe...but what Jesus Christ is saying, and you know what Jesus Christ is saying... Okay.

If they were my views then I would not have produce scriptures.

Well it's evidence what Christ Jesus is saying and revealed. In those books of the bible,

Therefore those scriptures are by Christ Jesus. Of course as I already knew would find a problem with what Christ Jesus is saying and has revealed. In
Revelation 12:9, 17:15, 20:13-14
Hebrews 2:14.
If you can't read and put those on things together in those books, that's really sad.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
If they were my views then I would not have produce scriptures.

Well it's evidence what Christ Jesus is saying and revealed. In those books of the bible,

Therefore those scriptures are by Christ Jesus. Of course as I already knew would find a problem with what Christ Jesus is saying and has revealed. In
Revelation 12:9, 17:15, 20:13-14
Hebrews 2:14.
If you can't read and put those on things together in those books, that's really sad.
Well it seems I know when I am beaten, don't I...
 
You don't know any of that, do you.
It's okay, to have our own beliefs though. I have mine. You have yours.
Your saying you know something, you must be able to prove it, so I will wait for it.

Way to ignore everything I just said. But the burden of proof is on you since you irrationally believe in this fable. So you first must prove that snakes can talk should be pretty easy since there's a lot of snakes out there. Secondly can you show us were the garden of eden is located at. I mean it should be easy there's an angel with a flaming sword guarding it. It shouldn't be hard to miss.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Way to ignore everything I just said. But the burden of proof is on you since you irrationally believe in this fable. So you first must prove that snakes can talk should be pretty easy since there's a lot of snakes out there. Secondly can you show us were the garden of eden is located at. I mean it should be easy there's an angel with a flaming sword guarding it. It shouldn't be hard to miss.
Hmmmm.
You are the one making all the false statements.
To make a statement without any evidence or proof, is just a claim, and likely baseless. The one hearing the false claim does not have to prove anything. They can dismiss such claims as baseless, unless the person can back up such claims with evidence.

From what I have observed, you make claims in every post you created - including the ones not on this thread.
You said in the one you claimed I ignored - note... claimed.
If God never created the tree there would be no sin.
I refer to it as a fable because it didn't happen.


To me those are claims you need to back up with evidence.
If you don't, or can't, then no one is obligated to take them as anything more than baseless claims.

In this post, you made another baseless claim, where you said...
you irrationally believe in this fable

Also, I just left another post where you made another one.
Christianity teaches children to forgo their critical thinking skills to belief in the irrational and that bad.

Again, can you prove or back up any of these?
 
Hmmmm.
You are the one making all the false statements.
To make a statement without any evidence or proof, is just a claim, and likely baseless. The one hearing the false claim does not have to prove anything. They can dismiss such claims as baseless, unless the person can back up such claims with evidence.

From what I have observed, you make claims in every post you created - including the ones not on this thread.
You said in the one you claimed I ignored - note... claimed.
If God never created the tree there would be no sin.
I refer to it as a fable because it didn't happen.


To me those are claims you need to back up with evidence.
If you don't, or can't, then no one is obligated to take them as anything more than baseless claims.

In this post, you made another baseless claim, where you said...
you irrationally believe in this fable

Also, I just left another post where you made another one.
Christianity teaches children to forgo their critical thinking skills to belief in the irrational and that bad.

Again, can you prove or back up any of these?

Are you looking for other post I made? How cute.

Nice try shifting the burden of proof onto me, but when you make the absurd claim that Genesis is true and actually happens then you have to proof it happened.

But if my claimed is wronged that you believe in this fable and that you don't actually believe in the story of Adam and Eve in the garden then good. You really shouldn't.

Look up the proclaimed Christian scientist Kent Hovind and then you'll see the critical thinking is killed in the christian faith.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Are you looking for other post I made? How cute.

Nice try shifting the burden of proof onto me, but when you make the absurd claim that Genesis is true and actually happens then you have to proof it happened.

But if my claimed is wronged that you believe in this fable and that you don't actually believe in the story of Adam and Eve in the garden then good. You really shouldn't.

Look up the proclaimed Christian scientist Kent Hovind and then you'll see the critical thinking is killed in the christian faith.
I wasn't aware that Kent Hovind was the ruler of Christian faith. :eek:
Looking for other posts you made? :eek: Why would I do such a thing?
Don't you think it's about time you come down off that cloud? :D The higher you go, the less oxygen there is. We all want to hear you on RF.
Not like this.

Anyway, I'm watching that thread, so unfortunately, I saw your post. :grin::tongueclosed:
 
I wasn't aware that Kent Hovind was the ruler of Christian faith. :eek:
Looking for other posts you made? :eek: Why would I do such a thing?
Don't you think it's about time you come down off that cloud? :D The higher you go, the less oxygen there is. We all want to hear you on RF.
Not like this.

Anyway, I'm watching that thread, so unfortunately, I saw your post. :grin::tongueclosed:

No, but he's just an example.

Can't refute my statement so you go for childish statements. Cool story bro.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I think JWs do a good job of picking and choosing - picking out the good, from the bad. That's why they stay away from those religious buildings where people go and warm benches, and go away just as confused as they went in.
But picking & choosing is still what you do, and you do as such in a subjective manner, and then you follow up with stereotyping all other denominations.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I've seen, on these forums, some say Christ died for nothing, because humankind still sin, suffer and die. Some have argued that if Christ really died for sins, then there should be no unforgivable sin.
I think these views are shortsighted, and clouded.
I suggest understanding what sin is, and how it is dealt with, is clearly explained by the apostle Paul in just a few Chapters containing his letters to the Christians in Rome.
The following points are mostly taken from Romans 5-8.

Sin is imperfection - missing the mark of God's righteous standards.
God's only begotten son was perfect, as he always sought to please his father. Not so with the angels that sinned. (1 Peter 2:22)

Adam and Eve sinned - they missed the mark of God's righteous standards, became imperfect (perfection is relative from the vantage point of the perfecter).
Sin involves wrong thinking, desires, and inclinations.
All persons born to Adam, inherited these - they were passed on from Adam's genes, including the defects acquired due to disobedience - that is, alienation from the life that belongs to God. (Ephesians 4:18) The body deteriorates until death.

Those who accept Christ, and live by his Law - by spirit, benefit from his ransom sacrifice, which allow them to have God's undeserved kindness, and forgiveness, and thus be acquitted of their sins, which are covered by Christ's blood. This does not undo the damage done by the sin of Adam, which we all inherit. That will occur during the millennial reign of Christ, when the resurrected are given new bodies, and those alive who survive the great tribulation, are repaired, healed completely of the damage caused by sin. From then on the process will proceed to reaching perfection - the point where Adam and Eve began, but beyond.

Sin and Imperfection would have been eradicated
. Any seed of imperfection that starts to grow, will immediately in a blink of an eye, be rooted out, and dissolved.
As the fairy tales go, "They lived happily perfectly ever after." ...but this is no fairy tale.
Christ did die for something - something of greater value than anything else.
This is what I find the scriptures say.
[GALLERY=media, 8859]In My Humble View (IMHV) by nPeace posted Feb 28, 2019 at 8:18 PM[/GALLERY]

Well, that was a zero sum game since He did not die, really.

Ciao

- viole
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
But picking & choosing is still what you do, and you do as such in a subjective manner, and then you follow up with stereotyping all other denominations.
Example...

Well, that was a zero sum game since He did not die, really.

Ciao

- viole
How often do we hear this.
Imagine a group of people saying they witnessed an event. There is evidence to suggest the event did take place.
Then someone walks up and says, "It never happened." Not an eyewitness,;No evidence to back it up; just one blank unsupported statement.

I could just imagine the reaction of the people - :rolleyes:
I mean, if the person had pulled out a video recorder and said, "look. See? and shown that the people were lying, I could appreciate the people would take the statement serious, as though it had some merit, but just a blank statement said as though it were coming from God himself?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Di your women keep their hair covered in public?
Many of our sisters wear a hat in public. The men too.
Do they keep them covered? If by that, you mean, do they cover their head, and keep it covered, every time they go out in public? No.
Why?

Are they silent during services?
It depends on what you mean. Do you mean do they respectfully keep silent, so as not to interrupt the one speaking, and so as to benefit from what is being said? Just like the men and children, who also keep silent. Of course, yes.
Why?
Oh, the babies don't always keep silent, but you know how it is with them. Oftentimes, mommy needs to put something in their mouth.
giphy.gif

Quick! The pacifier. The bottle. Do something.
Husband: Shhh. Woman. Keep Silent. Oops.

Do you greet each other with a "holy kiss"?
It depends on what you mean by holy kiss. What is a "holy kiss"?

Along with explaining the above, could you at the same time, answer these....
Do you "Salute / Greet Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them." Romans 16:15
How does "The churches of Christ salute you"? Romans 16:16

Does "The churches of Asia salute you"? Does "Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord with the church that is in their house"? How so? Do "All the brothers greet you"? 1 Corinthians 16:19, 20

Should I go on?

I love the questions though.
So tell me, why do you ask if our women keep their hair covered in public, and if they are silent during services? What's a "holy kiss"?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Many of our sisters wear a hat in public. The men too.
Do they keep them covered? If by that, you mean, do they cover their head, and keep it covered, every time they go out in public? No.
That doesn't count as all married women are to keep their hair covered in public. Maybe look it up.

It depends on what you mean. Do you mean do they respectfully keep silent, so as not to interrupt the one speaking, and so as to benefit from what is being said? Just like the men and children, who also keep silent.
See 1 Corinthians 14:33-35.

It depends on what you mean by holy kiss. What is a "holy kiss"?
See Romans 16:16, I Corinthians 16:20, 2 Corinthians 13:12, and 1 Thessalonians 5:26. It's a kiss on the cheek when greeting one another.
 
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