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Did Christ Die For Nothing?

nPeace

Veteran Member
As far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our sins from us. Ps 103



I do not believe that Jesus' sole purpose was to be a scapegoat for a vengeful God.
When one reads the Bible, especially the scriptures in Romans, which I referred to, one cannot honestly go away thinking the he was. Rather, an honest person, imo, would agree that God's mercy is abundantly great
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Sometimes I think people spend so much time talking about Christ they forget all about God.
Have you found this in your experience.... could you give an example?
Me personally, I have fount that only happens within religion that place God and Jesus as equally the same person. So they mention Jesus a lot, with the mindset that he is God the father. They even pray to Jesus.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Sometimes I think people spend so much time talking about Christ they forget all about God.

I have worried about that. I know that Christians believe that Christ is the intermediary between us and God, but many people seem like they totally forget about the Creator. Perhaps it is done out of ignorance? Most people are so consumed by their daily lives that they don't study enough to know?
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
I've seen, on these forums, some say Christ died for nothing, because humankind still sin, suffer and die. Some have argued that if Christ really died for sins, then there should be no unforgivable sin.
I think these views are shortsighted, and clouded.
I suggest understanding what sin is, and how it is dealt with, is clearly explained by the apostle Paul in just a few Chapters containing his letters to the Christians in Rome.
The following points are mostly taken from Romans 5-8.

Sin is imperfection - missing the mark of God's righteous standards.
God's only begotten son was perfect, as he always sought to please his father. Not so with the angels that sinned. (1 Peter 2:22)

Adam and Eve sinned - they missed the mark of God's righteous standards, became imperfect (perfection is relative from the vantage point of the perfecter).
Sin involves wrong thinking, desires, and inclinations.
All persons born to Adam, inherited these - they were passed on from Adam's genes, including the defects acquired due to disobedience - that is, alienation from the life that belongs to God. (Ephesians 4:18) The body deteriorates until death.

Those who accept Christ, and live by his Law - by spirit, benefit from his ransom sacrifice, which allow them to have God's undeserved kindness, and forgiveness, and thus be acquitted of their sins, which are covered by Christ's blood. This does not undo the damage done by the sin of Adam, which we all inherit. That will occur during the millennial reign of Christ, when the resurrected are given new bodies, and those alive who survive the great tribulation, are repaired, healed completely of the damage caused by sin. From then on the process will proceed to reaching perfection - the point where Adam and Eve began, but beyond.

Sin and Imperfection would have been eradicated
. Any seed of imperfection that starts to grow, will immediately in a blink of an eye, be rooted out, and dissolved.
As the fairy tales go, "They lived happily perfectly ever after." ...but this is no fairy tale.
Christ did die for something - something of greater value than anything else.
This is what I find the scriptures say.
[GALLERY=media, 8859]In My Humble View (IMHV) by nPeace posted Feb 28, 2019 at 8:18 PM[/GALLERY]
christ doesn't die; if christ is all and in all. christ might transform. jesus may have died but the worm that never dies, or the fire that never expires. basically the spirit, mind of that person, doesn't die.


most christians are so riddled, diseased with idolatry that they can't see the obvious. the spirit reminds churches in revelation to listen to what the spirit says about it.


change the mind, change of matter, world view.


Job 25:6
How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
It's called Genesis 2:16-17. You should really know you own creation fable.
You read, "God created sin" from that?
What language were you reading in, because the English version reads...16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
I see nothing that says God created sin, nor anything that comes even close to implying it.
Wait... Do you think sin is the tree? :dizzy:
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Any of what? What's in the OP? It's in the Bible.
But why do you believe the Bible? I notice you use it a lot as a reference. Apparently you think it an authoritative source.

It's not a textbook. It's not based on observation and testing, plus it's inconsistent, self contradictory, and historically inaccurate.
 
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You read, "God created sin" from that?
What language were you reading in, because the English version reads...16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
I see nothing that says God created sin, nor anything that comes even close to implying it.
Wait... Do you think sin is the tree? :dizzy:

So God didn't create the tree and Mankinds first sin in this creation fable is eating from that tree?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
christ doesn't die; if christ is all and in all. christ might transform. jesus may have died but the worm that never dies, or the fire that never expires. basically the spirit, mind of that person, doesn't die.


most christians are so riddled, diseased with idolatry that they can't see the obvious. the spirit reminds churches in revelation to listen to what the spirit says about it.


change the mind, change of matter, world view.


Job 25:6
How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
That's interesting. I just made a post here, on why we see things so varied.
If I understand you correctly, I agree with you that the spirit is with God, to restore life to anyone that dies.

1 Corinthians 15:36 You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

I'm thinking of 1 Corinthians 15
12 Now if it is being preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how is it that some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If, indeed, there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised up. 14 But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and your faith is also in vain. 15 Moreover, we are also found to be false witnesses of God, because we have given witness against God by saying that he raised up the Christ, whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. 16 For if the dead are not to be raised up, neither has Christ been raised up. 17 Further, if Christ has not been raised up, your faith is useless; you remain in your sins. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in death in union with Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are to be pitied more than anyone. 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.
36 You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies. 37 And as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but just a bare grain, whether of wheat or of some other kind of seed; 38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and gives to each of the seeds its own body.
42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
That's interesting. I just made a post here, on why we see things so varied.
If I understand you correctly, I agree with you that the spirit is with God, to restore life to anyone that dies.

1 Corinthians 15:36 You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

I'm thinking of 1 Corinthians 15
12 Now if it is being preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how is it that some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If, indeed, there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised up. 14 But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and your faith is also in vain. 15 Moreover, we are also found to be false witnesses of God, because we have given witness against God by saying that he raised up the Christ, whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. 16 For if the dead are not to be raised up, neither has Christ been raised up. 17 Further, if Christ has not been raised up, your faith is useless; you remain in your sins. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in death in union with Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are to be pitied more than anyone. 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.
36 You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies. 37 And as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but just a bare grain, whether of wheat or of some other kind of seed; 38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and gives to each of the seeds its own body.
42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.


christ is not and will never be a single individual. there was nothing made that wasn't made of the logos, or without it, outside of it.

the bible doesn't promote idolatry to a prophet, a person, or any begotten thing. jesus didn't promote idolatry.


christ is the light of the world; which is in everything but everything doesn't recognize that. this is why jesus explained that christ isn't here, or there, or apart from self but it is everywhere.

Matt 24:24-Matt 24:28 KJV For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For…

Luke 17:21-Luke 17:24 KJV Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in…


Mark 13:20-Mark 13:27 KJV And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that…
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
For me, the #1 most likely purpose of Jesus' coming is found in his teachings with the Sermon On the Mount, namely love and compassion for God and for all of God's creation. If there's anything beyond that, I don't really much care because the Sermon pretty much says it all, imo.
I agree. It has always seemed to me it is the teaching and the personal example that He came to show us.

All this mechanistic stuff about atonement and sacrifice seems cruel, primitive and unpersuasive to me - though the symbolism of it is perhaps part of the message.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I've seen, on these forums, some say Christ died for nothing, because humankind still sin, suffer and die. Some have argued that if Christ really died for sins, then there should be no unforgivable sin.
I think these views are shortsighted, and clouded.
I suggest understanding what sin is, and how it is dealt with, is clearly explained by the apostle Paul in just a few Chapters containing his letters to the Christians in Rome.
The following points are mostly taken from Romans 5-8.

Sin is imperfection - missing the mark of God's righteous standards.
God's only begotten son was perfect, as he always sought to please his father. Not so with the angels that sinned. (1 Peter 2:22)

Adam and Eve sinned - they missed the mark of God's righteous standards, became imperfect (perfection is relative from the vantage point of the perfecter).
Sin involves wrong thinking, desires, and inclinations.
All persons born to Adam, inherited these - they were passed on from Adam's genes, including the defects acquired due to disobedience - that is, alienation from the life that belongs to God. (Ephesians 4:18) The body deteriorates until death.

Those who accept Christ, and live by his Law - by spirit, benefit from his ransom sacrifice, which allow them to have God's undeserved kindness, and forgiveness, and thus be acquitted of their sins, which are covered by Christ's blood. This does not undo the damage done by the sin of Adam, which we all inherit. That will occur during the millennial reign of Christ, when the resurrected are given new bodies, and those alive who survive the great tribulation, are repaired, healed completely of the damage caused by sin. From then on the process will proceed to reaching perfection - the point where Adam and Eve began, but beyond.

Sin and Imperfection would have been eradicated
. Any seed of imperfection that starts to grow, will immediately in a blink of an eye, be rooted out, and dissolved.
As the fairy tales go, "They lived happily perfectly ever after." ...but this is no fairy tale.
Christ did die for something - something of greater value than anything else.
This is what I find the scriptures say.
[GALLERY=media, 8859]In My Humble View (IMHV) by nPeace posted Feb 28, 2019 at 8:18 PM[/GALLERY]
According to Christians , Christ didn't die but is still alive today making the whole thing moot and pointless to even begin with.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Why do you believe the Bible? I notice you use it a lot as a reference.

It's not a textbook. It's inconsistent, self contradictory, and historically inaccurate.
It's not testable or predictable.
I find the Bible to be true, reliable, authentic...
Contrary to your opinion, I find it is consistent, harmonious, historically inaccurate, testable.
I don't understand what you mean by it is not predictable.
The Bible is not a science, medical, school... textbook, but that doesn't make it any less important. In fact, it has practical guidelines, valuable information that helps millions live a meaningful, successful, and happy life.

I can tell you, not I alone, but millions of people testify to the fact that they are alive and well today, because of the Bible.
If that is not evidence that the Bible is testable with regard to it's power to have a positive effect on people's life, I don't know what is.

You seem to want to get rid of the Bible. Is that the case? Why do you hate it so much? What do you have to say about the positive effects observed by people who are not Christian?
Do you not welcome the use of a book that teaches person's how to live peaceably with their neighbor... who don't take up a weapon to kill someone else... who don't curse and swear at their neighbor... who don't have an affair with their neighbors wife, or flirt with her... who don't steal from the company, or the supermarket, or be dishonest in their business dealings... who don't find someone's wad of cash, and dance all the way home, singing, "Finders keepers, losers weepers... who don't dump their garbage on the streets, but keep their surroundings tidy... who help their neighbors physically, spiritually, and emotionally... who try to raise their children to be mannerly, and respectful - in the mental regulating of Jehovah... who basically love their neighbor as themselves.... because the Bible says it is a requirement to please God?

Today when natural disasters or other calamities strike, time and again our Christian brothers are the first on the scene to render needed assistance materially and spiritually to fellow Christians as well as to others in need.

Jehovah's Witnesses help Austell flood victims

Thailand Embassy Expresses “Sincere Appreciation and Admiration” to Jehovah’s Witnesses in Peru for Helping Detained Thai Citizens
Representatives from the Thailand Embassy in Peru visited the branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses located in Lima, the capital city, on June 26, 2018. Their purpose was to thank our brothers for the assistance given to Thai citizens in a Peruvian prison.

Jehovah’s Witnesses in Peru have been visiting prisons in their Bible education work since 2007. But beginning in 2013, the brothers have been visiting a prison that includes Thai inmates. Impressed by the displays of personal interest, the Thai consul contacted the branch office to arrange a visit.
Helping Prisoners

JUNE 26, 2017
Officials in Russia Honor Jehovah’s Witnesses, Including Jailed Danish Citizen, for Outstanding Community Service

Jehovah’s Witnesses Honored for Helping Detainees
Nine of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Australia have been awarded certificates of appreciation for providing “outstanding service” to detainees at one of Australia’s largest immigration detention centers. The Witnesses received the awards from the Curtin Immigration Detention Centre near Derby, Western Australia. *

Each week, the Witnesses visit the detainees to hear their experiences and to share the Bible’s message of comfort and hope. The effects from their visits to the clients are easily seen immediately,” said Christopher Riddoch, the center’s religious and cultural liaison officer. He said that the mood of the detainees improves and that they are happier after the visits, which he credits to the men “knowing there are people out there genuinely interested in their well-being.”

Mr. Riddoch also said that the certificate given to the Witnesses is a small gesture of thanks for, as he put it, “improving the lives of the men under our care.” He added that the Witnesses “are a credit to their families, their congregation, and their faith.

I don't mean to blow a trumpet here, but you are asking for evidence,
However, it seems to me some people have created a worldview where they have closed their minds tight, so as to live in that world free from the one thing they hate most - and not realizing how damaging their worldview is to them.
Not only that, I think the whole opposition to the Bible undermines positive effects on society, and is more a contribution to a corrupt society.
I understand that religion - including "Christianity" which is probably the majority has played a role in the breakdown in society, but I blame this on their failure to live by what they claim to believe - which I don't believe they do. They neither live by the Bible, nor teach it, as far as I see.
When you have a religious body that claim to follow Christ, yet the "priest" they call them, and their flock can smoke, drink heavily, and fornicate, even have homosexual marriages, and even marry you off to a horse, what part of that is Christianity?
To me, that's not the Christianity of the Bible. In fact, I believe in what Jesus said - there is only one road that leads to life - one faith. One true way of worship. All the others are counterfeit.

The examples above are just but a 0.02% of the positive praise given by educators, security, and law enforcement officers, and other staff, and high officials, as well as citizen, who have praised the conduct, and work of those carrying out the most successful Bible education work on earth.

There is in my view, much evidence that the Bible is reliable, and actually more truthful than anything on this earth - including what men will tell you is true, and can't even show you it is true.
From what I have observed, the Bible is not outdated, but is ahead of its time.

I created a thread on here with much evidence for it's truthfulness.
Feel free to go through it, knock it, challenge it... I'd be happy for the challenge.

Here in a nutshell are a few lines of evidence.
If the Bible is true, and it is the word of God, I think we would expect...
1. it would be like no other book.
2. it would be available to all mankind, wherever they live.
3. it would be in harmony with true / good science, or scientific discovery.
4. if it contains prophecy, those prophecies would be reliable - being fulfilled 100% every time.
5. it would survive any and all attempts to stop it's translation, and distribution, or any attempts to destroy it.
6. it would contain practical wisdom, or value that would be time tested.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
So God didn't create the tree and Mankinds first sin in this creation fable is eating from that tree?
Which is it? Are you using the Bible, or are you speaking your mind?
Who planted the tree? Was it not the creator?
Shouldn't you understand something before you can call it a fable?
How can one refer to something as a fable, and not know anything about it, much less understand anything it says?
I don't understand that.
So did God create sin, or did mankind sin? Sorry, you have me a bit confused about what you are saying.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
christ is not and will never be a single individual. there was nothing made that wasn't made of the logos, or without it, outside of it.

the bible doesn't promote idolatry to a prophet, a person, or any begotten thing. jesus didn't promote idolatry.


christ is the light of the world; which is in everything but everything doesn't recognize that. this is why jesus explained that christ isn't here, or there, or apart from self but it is everywhere.

Matt 24:24-Matt 24:28 KJV For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For…

Luke 17:21-Luke 17:24 KJV Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in…


Mark 13:20-Mark 13:27 KJV And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that…
The Bible says Christ died?
What do you think I should believe- the Bible, or what someone else says?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
According to Christians , Christ didn't die but is still alive today making the whole thing moot and pointless to even begin with.
Yeah, correct. Their teachings are moot.
Didn't Jesus say that?
Matthew 15:6-9
6 So you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition. 7You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
I've seen, on these forums, some say Christ died for nothing, because humankind still sin, suffer and die. Some have argued that if Christ really died for sins, then there should be no unforgivable sin.
I think these views are shortsighted, and clouded.
I suggest understanding what sin is, and how it is dealt with, is clearly explained by the apostle Paul in just a few Chapters containing his letters to the Christians in Rome.
The following points are mostly taken from Romans 5-8.

Sin is imperfection - missing the mark of God's righteous standards.
God's only begotten son was perfect, as he always sought to please his father. Not so with the angels that sinned. (1 Peter 2:22)

Adam and Eve sinned - they missed the mark of God's righteous standards, became imperfect (perfection is relative from the vantage point of the perfecter).
Sin involves wrong thinking, desires, and inclinations.
All persons born to Adam, inherited these - they were passed on from Adam's genes, including the defects acquired due to disobedience - that is, alienation from the life that belongs to God. (Ephesians 4:18) The body deteriorates until death.

Those who accept Christ, and live by his Law - by spirit, benefit from his ransom sacrifice, which allow them to have God's undeserved kindness, and forgiveness, and thus be acquitted of their sins, which are covered by Christ's blood. This does not undo the damage done by the sin of Adam, which we all inherit. That will occur during the millennial reign of Christ, when the resurrected are given new bodies, and those alive who survive the great tribulation, are repaired, healed completely of the damage caused by sin. From then on the process will proceed to reaching perfection - the point where Adam and Eve began, but beyond.

Sin and Imperfection would have been eradicated
. Any seed of imperfection that starts to grow, will immediately in a blink of an eye, be rooted out, and dissolved.
As the fairy tales go, "They lived happily perfectly ever after." ...but this is no fairy tale.
Christ did die for something - something of greater value than anything else.
This is what I find the scriptures say.
[GALLERY=media, 8859]In My Humble View (IMHV) by nPeace posted Feb 28, 2019 at 8:18 PM[/GALLERY]



As you stated above ( All persons born to Adam, inherited these - they were passed on from Adam's genes, including the defects acquired due to disobedience - that is, alienation from the life that belongs to God. (Ephesians 4:18) The body deteriorates until death)

How does the 6 day creation of male and female fit into this equation.

In Genesis 1:26--'And God said, Let us make man in our image after our likeness"

How does this fit into what you said here
( All persons born to Adam, inherited these - they were passed on from Adam's genes, including the defects acquired due to disobedience - that is, alienation from the life that belongs to God. (Ephesians 4:18) The body deteriorates until death)

So how does the 6th day creation of male and female fit into that.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
The Bible says Christ died?
What do you think I should believe- the Bible, or what someone else says?
Paul claimed he died.

Ever lasting life doesn't die.jesus supposedly proved that. He even said the same regarding Lazarus.
 
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