Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?

[Trailblazer]

I need not argue the point, but I will offer this;

"...Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers...."

Funny thing, that was one of the quotes I was going to post to YOU. Yes, they are all the same Spirit of God and they all proclaim the same Faith of God... Here are two similar passages I often quote:

“The Bearers of the Trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Revealers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they, therefore, are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 50

“It is clear and evident to thee that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold Them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of Being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendor! Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: “I am the return of all the Prophets,” He, verily, speaketh the truth. In like manner, in every subsequent Revelation, the return of the former Revelation is a fact, the truth of which is firmly established….” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 52​

Nevertheless, they are all distinct and they all have a definitely prescribed mission on earth. That is what I was trying to explain; the missions of the former Manifestations have been fulfilled and that is why their dispensations have been abrogated...

“The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 52​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Nevertheless, they are all distinct and they all have a definitely prescribed mission on earth. That is what I was trying to explain; the missions of the former Manifestations have been fulfilled and that is why their dispensations have been abrogated...

I see all this distinction is all to do with the capacity of humanity, not the Messenger.

This is a favorite prayer;

"O Divine Providence! This assemblage is composed of Thy friends who are attracted to Thy beauty and are set ablaze by the fire of Thy love. Turn these souls into heavenly angels, resuscitate them through the breath of Thy Holy Spirit, grant them eloquent tongues and resolute hearts, bestow upon them heavenly power and merciful susceptibilities, cause them to become the promulgators of the oneness of mankind and the cause of love and concord in the world of humanity, so that the perilous darkness of ignorant prejudice may vanish through the light of the Sun of Truth, this dreary world may become illumined, this material realm may absorb the rays of the world of spirit, these different colors may merge into one color and the melody of praise may rise to the kingdom of Thy sanctity.
Verily, Thou art the Omnipotent, and the Almighty!" —‘Abdu’l-Bahá

Regards Tony

 

[sooda]

Very interesting thoughts. As you've noticed, the JWs focus on negativity in order to promote their ideas. They seek those who are looking for an easy answer and claim that only they can provide that answer. They appeal to those who are undergoing some sort of crisis and they claim that, by joining their group, the person can learn how to have ALL their problems whisked away and they will, if they follow all the rules, enter into Paradise where they will consume giant fruit, pet lions, and hobnob with the patriarchs of old.

Sadly, though, if a person does happen to get hooked, but later realizes that they have been hoodwinked, they will be cast out and shunned--losing all their fake friends and possibly their families.

Very dangerous group that most definitely does not have the "truth."

Great post.. We should be wary of negative people who see nothing but the dark side and claim only they can fix it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Apostle Paul wrote at 2 Corinthians 11:3-4; 13-15.......
"But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, your minds might be corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity that are due the Christ. 4 For as it is, if someone comes and preaches a Jesus other than the one we preached, or you receive a spirit other than what you received, or good news other than what you accepted, you easily put up with him. . . . .
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works."

You should be aware that when one uses passages such as these, then we must consider that they are just as applicable to ones own stance.

I would suggest this is why Christ has said to look for the fruits of faith, unless a JW can say they know Gods Purpose and can speak for God.

Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

It's all in the interpretation I guess. Not "what" you believe, but "who" you believe.

This is dichotomous thinking. It is 'both' 'who' and 'what' we believe. It is not sufficient to believe in Christ but to understand properly who He is and what He requires from us (Matthew 25:31-46).

If Jesus said that "salvation originates with the Jews", (John 4:20-26) then to me, that rules out Islam as a source of divine knowledge....and anything connected with it.

To me, you are reading into ancient verses that which isn't there. John 4 is remarkable in that it is a rare instance Jesus teaches one who is not a Jew. Jesus is not making the distinction between Jews and Samaritans on ethnicity but on beliefs.

So what did the Samaritans believe that was different from Judasim?

The Samaritans are adherents of Samaritanism, a religion closely related to Judaism. Samaritans believe that their worship, which is based on the Samaritan Pentateuch,[16] is the true religion of the ancient Israelites from before the Babylonian captivity, preserved by those who remained in the Land of Israel, as opposed to Judaism, which they see as a related but altered and amended religion, brought back by those returning from the Babylonian Captivity. The Samaritans believe that Mount Gerizim was the original Holy Place of Israel from the time that Joshua conquered Canaan. The major issue between Jews and Samaritans has always been the location of the Chosen Place to worship God: The Temple Mount of Moriah in Jerusalem according to the Jewish faith or Mount Gerizim according to the Samaritan faith.

Samaritans - Wikipedia

The Samaritans of course originated from one of the tribes of Israelites so once again ethnicity is irrelevant. The problem was the Samaritans understanding of God's guidance was that it stopped at Moses. They didn't acknowledge many of the prophets in the Hebrew Bible. That was a problem because many of the prophets they didn't believe in had prophecised the coming of Christ.

If you want to believe God can only reveal Himself through that are Jewish because of an interpretation of John 4 that was never intended, go ahead. The biggest problem is the scriptures say no such thing and you end up becoming somewhat ethnocentric in your understanding of religious history.

Ishmael was not the son through whom the promise came. That was to go to from Abraham to Isaac and then to Jacob and his offspring. That eliminates Ishmael, Mohammed and Baha'u'llah and anything they had to say, according to my beliefs.

Once again you are reading into Genesis something that isn't there. Although Ishmael and his mother Hagar were cast out at Sarah's insistence, they were still cared for by Abraham and God promised to make a nation out of Ishmael. (Genesis 21:13). There is no reason to believe that God could not raise up a prophet through the lineage of Ishmael. Indeed He did just that through Muhammad. Muhammad corrected Christianity's error with he Trinity in the 7th century AD long before the JWs started making an issue of it.

Islamic view of the Trinity - Wikipedia

This is why I can't accept that God would give mankind mixed messages through all these different prophets in different belief systems as Baha'i accepts. God kept Israel completely separated from the religions of the Gentiles (any who were not Jewish). When Israel adopted false worship, he punished them. How does Baha'i overcome this fact, except to ignore the parts of the Bible that disagree with their worldview?

If your understanding of Christ and His Message has errors then of course there will be contradictions.

There is complete exclusivity in connection with Israel. Jesus was Jewish and those who came to accept him as Messiah had to stay within the confines of what he taught. Again, there was no toleration of teachings from outside of his inspired counsel. The Bible says that Jesus was "the heir of all things" and that he spoke as God's prophet. There were no successors, (Hebrews 1:1-4) and no need for any other scripture. (2 John 10-11)

Once again you are reading into verses something that was never intended. Your understanding effectively restricts God from revealing Himself again as He has did through Christ. Its very much like the Pharisees who rejected Jesus because their preconceived ideas were based on a fundamental misunderstanding of their own scriptures.

 

[sooda]

In addition to Hagar and Ishmael there are Abraham's sons by Keturah.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hmmm...I'm just a bit surprised that Deeje didn't jump right in and let you know what JWs believe about the League of Nations and the United Nations.

Rather than considering these organizations a step in the right direction, JWs believe that the UN has put itself in place of God's Kingdom and is trying to usurp the role that should rightly belong only to God's Kingdom. Furthermore, they teach that the UN is, in reality, the "image of the Wild Beast" of Revelation and that the UN will very shortly turn on religion to abolish it. As soon as the JW religion is attacked, however, Jehovah will then step in and destroy the current world system, ushering in the New System, into which JWs will happily skip.

I guess she's trying to back off from some of the more, shall we say, unattractive beliefs of the JWs?

What is interesting, however, is that, despite condemning the UN as the "image of the Wild Beast," the Watchtower Society affiliated itself as an NGO for approximately ten years because they felt that the UN could offer them some good benefits. Most JWs refuse to believe this, however, or they claim that the WTS did this simply to get a "library card" which has been denied by the UN when questioned about this.

Deeje is being diplomatic. We've been talking to each other on this forum on/off for over two years. I know the JWs view the UN as the beast in Revelation. Such a belief is utter absurdity of course. None of us are anarchists and communities need to be governed in a manner that is effective, compassionate and just. The solution to a dictatorship isn't no government. Eventually we need to establish order. Schools, hospital, and roads all need proper guidance and management.

The necessity of the United Nations became clear as the noon day sun after the widespread destruction of WWII. The United Nations is far from perfect but in regards reducing international conflict it has been effective. A great deal of socioeconomic development and charity work has taken place under the UN umbrella. There is a very strong human rights emphasis including safeguarding the freedom of belief and religion (JWs included).

Any attempt to portray the United Nations as the beast in revelation just makes the JWs look out of touch. Still, there are plenty of people who are profoundly disaffected by life and so its not hard to see why this approach attracts converts.

 

[sooda]

Deeje is being diplomatic. We've been talking to each other on this forum on/off for over two years. I know the JWs view the UN as the beast in Revelation. Such a belief is utter absurdity of course. None of us are anarchists and communities need to be governed in a manner that is effective, compassionate and just. The solution to a dictatorship isn't no government. Eventually we need to establish order. Schools, hospital, and roads all need proper guidance and management.

The necessity of the United Nations became clear as the noon day sun after the widespread destruction of WWII. The United Nations is far from perfect but in regards reducing international conflict it has been effective. A great deal of socioeconomic development and charity work has taken place under the UN umbrella. There is a very strong human rights emphasis including safeguarding the freedom of belief and religion (JWs included).

Any attempt to portray the United Nations as the beast in revelation just makes the JWs look out of touch. Still, there are plenty of people who are profoundly disaffected by life and so its not hard to see why this approach attracts converts.

That's a new one for me. I never knew that JW think the UN is the beast of Revelation????

Wow. That's weird. I can't get my head around it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's a new one for me. I never knew that JW think the UN is the beast of Revelation????

Wow. That's weird. I can't get my head around it.

This is the JW explanation;

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/scarlet-beast-of-revelation-17/

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

That's a new one for me. I never knew that JW think the UN is the beast of Revelation????

Wow. That's weird. I can't get my head around it.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/scarlet-beast-of-revelation-17/

Does the Bible say the United Nations will have a role in the end times?

There were a number of new religious movements to emerge during the nineteenth century both within Christianity and Islam that had a strong emphasis on end time prophecies. The JWs was one. Millerism leading to the seventh day adventist was another.

Millerism - Wikipedia

The there was the Church of Jesus Christ of the latter day saints (Mormons).

It was a time of Messianic expectation similar to Judaism in the first century.

 

[sooda]

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/scarlet-beast-of-revelation-17/

Does the Bible say the United Nations will have a role in the end times?

There were a number of new religious movements to emerge during the nineteenth century both within Christianity and Islam that had a strong emphasis on end time prophecies. The JWs was one. Millerism leading to the seventh day adventist was another.

Millerism - Wikipedia

The there was the Church of Jesus Christ of the latter day saints (Mormons).

It was a time of Messianic expectation similar to Judaism in the first century.

Thanks, I didn't know where JW came from. They were Millerites!

The Jehovah's Witnesses trace back to the Adventist movement of the 19th century when William Miller, a Baptist preacher, predicted Christ would return and the world would end in 1843.

From his prediction in 1816, his following grew to nearly 50,000 members. As the date he predicted approached, Miller was forced to recalculate his date several times, changing from March of 1843 to March of 1844 and finally October of 1844.

When these dates passed uneventfully, the main body of the movement fell apart while only small, splinter groups kept the movement's spirit alive. Each group found their own way to explain the prediction's failure.

One such group, led by Nelson H. Barbour reasoned the prediction did not fail and that Christ actually returned invisibly in 1874.

They also believed that the Rapture, a prophecy that God will whisk his faithful away to Heaven at the end of the world, would happen in 1948.

Barbour published these beliefs in his magazine, The Herald of the Morning. While readership declined in rejection of the invisible return doctrine, Barbour's ideas captured the attention of Charles Taze Russell who would eventually found the Jehovah's Witnesses.

continued

Jehovah's Witnesses: Origin, Founder & History | Study.com

 

[sooda]

Got Questions is informative, but IMO leans heavily on Darby and Scofield.

Jehovah's Witnesses: Origin, Founder & History | Study.com

 

[wizanda]

Any attempt to portray the United Nations as the beast in revelation just makes the JWs look out of touch.

Since I've got the new name of Christ, and have blatantly showed you that directly; where you've partially attempted to understand it, whilst portraying Baha'ullah above me...

That I'm sorry to say "is out of touch", as you're not recognizing the ongoing chain of transmission like Baha'i taught; even tho I've asked you to help.

Thus the UN based on my own Exegesis (Zand) is Revelation 9:17; they've established the IMF banking system, which is massacring the last Muslim countries to continue charging usury.

Revelation 9:17 WEB Thus I saw the horses in the vision, and those who sat on them, having breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the horses’ heads resembled lions’ heads. Out of their mouths proceed fire, smoke, and sulfur.

The colors of the UN are hyacinth blue and sulfur yellow, Babylon the great is the Roman Empire now continuing through Zionist Christendom, and people are too naive to see the planet is doomed because of it.

Like if people would listen, we could unite for a spiritual battle of consciousness, rather than Armageddon physically; yet when not even the Baha'i take their prophecies seriously, how can you get the world to pay attention?

In my opinion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thanks, I didn't know where JW came from. They were Millerites!

The Jehovah's Witnesses trace back to the Adventist movement of the 19th century when William Miller, a Baptist preacher, predicted Christ would return and the world would end in 1843.

From his prediction in 1816, his following grew to nearly 50,000 members. As the date he predicted approached, Miller was forced to recalculate his date several times, changing from March of 1843 to March of 1844 and finally October of 1844.

When these dates passed uneventfully, the main body of the movement fell apart while only small, splinter groups kept the movement's spirit alive. Each group found their own way to explain the prediction's failure.

One such group, led by Nelson H. Barbour reasoned the prediction did not fail and that Christ actually returned invisibly in 1874.

They also believed that the Rapture, a prophecy that God will whisk his faithful away to Heaven at the end of the world, would happen in 1948.

Barbour published these beliefs in his magazine, The Herald of the Morning. While readership declined in rejection of the invisible return doctrine, Barbour's ideas captured the attention of Charles Taze Russell who would eventually found the Jehovah's Witnesses.

continued

Jehovah's Witnesses: Origin, Founder & History | Study.com

I like that William Miller, a Christain, came up with 1844 from Daniel, the year of the Bab's declaration. It was also the year Abdul'baha (Baha'u'llah's Son) was born, on the very eve of that declaration. What He did not know it was also the year 1260. That could have been a game changer.

It is Addul'baha that has given us the detailed explanations of some of Daniel and Revelation and showed how William Miller got the year right. The day and hour were still not known.

Regards Tony

 

[sooda]

Since I've got the new name of Christ, and have blatantly showed you that directly; where you've partially attempted to understand it, whilst portraying Baha'ullah above me...

That I'm sorry to say "is out of touch", as you're not recognizing the ongoing chain of transmission like Baha'i taught; even tho I've asked you to help.

Thus the UN based on my own Exegesis (Zand) is Revelation 9:17; they've established the IMF banking system, which is massacring the last Muslim countries to continue charging usury.

Revelation 9:17 WEB Thus I saw the horses in the vision, and those who sat on them, having breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the horses’ heads resembled lions’ heads. Out of their mouths proceed fire, smoke, and sulfur.

The colors of the UN are hyacinth blue and sulfur yellow, Babylon the great is the Roman Empire now continuing through Zionist Christendom, and people are too naive to see the planet is doomed because of it.

Like if people would listen, we could unite for a spiritual battle of consciousness, rather than Armageddon physically; yet when not even the Baha'i take their prophecies seriously, how can you get the world to pay attention?

In my opinion.

Usury and interest are NOT Islamic.. What did you mean?

Revelation is not about 2000 years in the future.. It was about the first century .. This has Darby and Scofield all over it.

A Little History: Cyrus I Scofield and the Tribulation

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Since I've got the new name of Christ, and have blatantly showed you that directly; where you've partially attempted to understand it, whilst portraying Baha'ullah above me...

That I'm sorry to say "is out of touch", as you're not recognizing the ongoing chain of transmission like Baha'i taught; even tho I've asked you to help.

Thus the UN based on my own Exegesis (Zand) is Revelation 9:17; they've established the IMF banking system, which is massacring the last Muslim countries to continue charging usury.

Revelation 9:17 WEB Thus I saw the horses in the vision, and those who sat on them, having breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the horses’ heads resembled lions’ heads. Out of their mouths proceed fire, smoke, and sulfur.

The colors of the UN are hyacinth blue and sulfur yellow, Babylon the great is the Roman Empire now continuing through Zionist Christendom, and people are too naive to see the planet is doomed because of it.

Like if people would listen, we could unite for a spiritual battle of consciousness, rather than Armageddon physically; yet when not even the Baha'i take their prophecies seriously, how can you get the world to pay attention?

In my opinion.

Oh dear. In my opinion.

Regards Tony

 

[sooda]

I like that William Miller, a Christain, came up with 1844 from Daniel, the year of the Bab's declaration. It was also the year Abdul'baha (Baha'u'llah's Son) was born, on the very eve of that declaration. What He did not know it was also the year 1260. That could have been a game changer.

It is Addul'baha that has given us the detailed explanations of some of Daniel and Revelation and showed how William Miller got the year right. The day and hour were still not known.

Regards Tony

So 1844... not long after Darby's rapture doctrine.

The fact that John Nelson Darby invented the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine around 1830 AD is unquestionably true.

All attempts to find evidence of this wild doctrine before 1830 have failed, with a single exception: Morgan Edwards wrote a short essay as a college paper for Bristol Baptist College in Bristol England in 1744 where he confused the second coming with the first resurrection of Revelation 20 and described a "pre-tribulation" rapture. However Edwards ideas, which he admitted were brand new and never before taught, had no influence in the modern population of the false doctrine. That prize to goes to Darby.

. Prior to 1830, no church taught it in their creed, catechism or statement of faith.

Darby has had a profound impact on religion today, since Darby's "secret rapture" false doctrine has infected most conservative, evangelical churches. While the official creeds and statements of faith of many churches either reject or are silent about Rapture, neither do they openly condemn this doctrine of a demon from the pulpit.

Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD

 

[Dawnofhope]

Since I've got the new name of Christ, and have blatantly showed you that directly; where you've partially attempted to understand it, whilst portraying Baha'ullah above me...

That I'm sorry to say "is out of touch", as you're not recognizing the ongoing chain of transmission like Baha'i taught; even tho I've asked you to help.

Thus the UN based on my own Exegesis (Zand) is Revelation 9:17; they've established the IMF banking system, which is massacring the last Muslim countries to continue charging usury.

Revelation 9:17 WEB Thus I saw the horses in the vision, and those who sat on them, having breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the horses’ heads resembled lions’ heads. Out of their mouths proceed fire, smoke, and sulfur.

The colors of the UN are hyacinth blue and sulfur yellow, Babylon the great is the Roman Empire now continuing through Zionist Christendom, and people are too naive to see the planet is doomed because of it.

Like if people would listen, we could unite for a spiritual battle of consciousness, rather than Armageddon physically; yet when not even the Baha'i take their prophecies seriously, how can you get the world to pay attention?

In my opinion.

Are you OK?

 

[wizanda]

Are you OK?

Of course not, I was born knowing advanced details about religion globally, have known I'm an Avatar since 4 years old, and people are rude, how would you feel if you knew the end of humanity is soon, and the only way to prevent it, is to get some people to take their religions seriously?

In my opinion.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Of course not, I was born knowing advanced details about religion globally, have known I'm an Avatar since 4 years old, and people are rude, how would you feel if you knew the end of humanity is soon, and the only way to prevent it, is to get some people to take their religions seriously?

In my opinion.

It sounds as if you have the weight of the world upon your shoulders.