Catholics, is the Pope driving you nuts?

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm not here to debate Catholic theology or berate the Catholics in this forum.

But today the Pope shocked me. The RCC is in the MIDDLE of their summit on abuse, and I'm reading an article on how the Pope said that those who are critics of the Church are "friends of the devil." OMGosh! You can't have it both ways!!! You can't have transparency and bash those who are talking. Indeed the only reason the RCC is cleaning up its act is because of the relentless pressure from victim groups.

Catholics, is this driving you nuts? How do you deal with contradictions like this? How does it make you feel about your Pontiff? Does it change your actions personally as a Catholic, like are you going to Mass less or giving less money? Do you think the double mindedness will undermine the summit? Are you hoping and praying that Pope Francis will resign? How long do you REALISTICALLY think it will take to fix this scandal? Decades? A century? Never?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm not here to debate Catholic theology or berate the Catholics in this forum.

But today the Pope shocked me. The RCC is in the MIDDLE of their summit on abuse, and I'm reading an article on how the Pope said that those who are critics of the Church are "friends of the devil." OMGosh! You can't have it both ways!!! You can't have transparency and bash those who are talking. Indeed the only reason the RCC is cleaning up its act is because of the relentless pressure from victim groups.

Catholics, is this driving you nuts? How do you deal with contradictions like this? How does it make you feel about your Pontiff? Does it change your actions personally as a Catholic, like are you going to Mass less or giving less money? Do you think the double mindedness will undermine the summit? Are you hoping and praying that Pope Francis will resign? How long do you REALISTICALLY think it will take to fix this scandal? Decades? A century? Never?

I see I have a very different view of this subject.

From how I see it, all power was taken from the Catholic Church, Christianity and Kings and Rulers, as a whole, back in the 1800's by Baha'u'llah.

Shoghi Effendi writes

"..Dear friends! The decline in the fortunes of the crowned wielders of temporal power has been paralleled by a no less startling deterioration in the influence exercised by the world’s spiritual leaders. The colossal events that have heralded the dissolution of so many kingdoms and empires have almost synchronized with the crumbling of the seemingly inviolable strongholds of religious orthodoxy. That same process which, swiftly and tragically, sealed the doom of kings and emperors, and extinguished their dynasties, has operated in the case of the ecclesiastical leaders of both Christianity and Islám, damaging their prestige, and, in some cases, overthrowing their highest institutions. “Power hath been seized” indeed from both “kings and ecclesiastics.” The glory of the former has been eclipsed, the power of the latter irretrievably lost....."

There is no path back for Christian priests or Islam Mulla's or unjust governance, their influence is over and has been renewed.

Regards Tony

 

[Ellen Brown]

At least the Catholics and the Pope are starting to address things.

There are other denominations that need to do the same thing.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

At least the Catholics and the Pope are starting to address things.

There are other denominations that need to do the same thing.

Are they? So far the summit is simply proposing procedures with no teeth, no different than what has already been in place. There are still no guidelines for reporting offenses to civil authorities, and still no severe consequences for offenders or those who cover up. Do Catholics want priests who are pedophiles? What say you, Catholics?

 

[whirlingmerc]

Are they? So far the summit is simply proposing procedures with no teeth, no different than what has already been in place. There are still no guidelines for reporting offenses to civil authorities, and still no severe consequences for offenders or those who cover up. Do Catholics want priests who are pedophiles? What say you, Catholics?

I see it a bit like Ellen Brown and take it as a positive step. Not a final sufficient address of the problem but a positive step.

As a Protestant I have many stunning beliefs that I see eye to eye with with the Catholic Church but they could have more clarity regarding the gospel and living it out. Not sure what was meant by criticism since proverbs says sometimes a faithful friend will give you criticism out of love and you should hear it.

 

[pearl]

Catholics, is this driving you nuts? How do you deal with contradictions like this?

I don't understand them to be contradictions. I think who Francis refers to as 'friends of the devil' is not directed at the victims of abuse, but to detractors who make it their mission to disparage the Church. Francis also faces resistance from within the Church from a powerful conservative Curia with the mentality that what goes on within the hierarchy stays within the hierarchy.

How does it make you feel about your Pontiff?

I continue to admire his courage in the face of such adversity from within.

 

[Vinayaka]

Action talks. Talk isn't action. Call the civil authorities about abuse. Do something. Excommunicating offenders and those that covered up might be a good start. I don't see why that isn't the logical step.

 

[columbus]

I'm reading an article on how the Pope said that those who are critics of the Church are "friends of the devil." OMGosh! You can't have it both ways!!! You can't have transparency and bash those who are talking.

Your paraphrase of what the Pope said implies that he was describing all critics as "friends of the devil".
I sincerely doubt that this is true.

Since he is one himself.
Tom

 

[whirlingmerc]

I don't understand them to be contradictions. I think who Francis refers to as 'friends of the devil' is not directed at the victims of abuse, but to detractors who make it their mission to disparage the Church. Francis also faces resistance from within the Church from a powerful conservative Curia with the mentality that what goes on within the hierarchy stays within the hierarchy.

I continue to admire his courage in the face of such adversity from within.

Sometimes as Ephesians says 'you speak the truth in love' which can be a form of constructive criticism. If the criticism is 'repent' and it's appropriate then call a spade a spade.

It the criticism is to tear down and not given out of love, then it could be inappropriate

 

[pearl]

Sometimes as Ephesians says 'you speak the truth in love' which can be a form of constructive criticism. If the criticism is 'repent' and it's appropriate then call a spade a spade.

It the criticism is to tear down and not given out of love, then it could be inappropriate

There comes a time when the priority is not the blame game, but to 'fix' the problem once and for all, especially when it is systemic. I think this is what Francis is attempting to do.

 

[Cooky]

You can't have transparency and bash those who are talking. Indeed the only reason the RCC is cleaning up its act is because of the relentless pressure from victim groups.

I don't actually know that this is true.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Your paraphrase of what the Pope said implies that he was describing all critics as "friends of the devil".
I sincerely doubt that this is true.

Since he is one himself.
Tom

Gosh it was a while back, so I don't recall all the details, but I believe he referred in his Christmas homily AGAIN to those revealing stuff in the church as something of Satan. It was rather obvious that he was referring to Vigano and others. He does NOT like it that the scandal went public. He would have preferred it if things had remained under the table--he appears t have been perfectly happy with the half-*** way the church was dealing with it before.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I don't actually know that this is true.

Hey it's not my church, not my religion. But I can say with confidence that the problem with sexual abuse is not unique to the Catholic church -- it is everywhere, and it's been covered up by everyone. The schools. The scouts. The little leagues. And ALL the different religions. And actually I think it will get cleaned up sooner in the Catholic Church because the victims were strong enough not to shut up.

It's just that I don't expect the cleanup to be fast and soon. Moving the Catholic Church is like moving a glacier.

 

[metis]

The RCC is in the MIDDLE of their summit on abuse, and I'm reading an article on how the Pope said that those who are critics of the Church are "friends of the devil." OMGosh! You can't have it both ways!!!

I would have to see the context, but my guess is that he's saying that there's a difference between those priests and bishops who clearly did evil with their sex abuse or just moving pedophile priests around versus just attacking the Church in a bigoted fashion through mass blame.

IOW, it's "kosher" to blame the culprits but not "kosher" to blame the entire organization. There's quite a bit of crime in this country but we don't blame all in the country or all political officials for it.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I would have to see the context, but my guess is that he's saying that there's a difference between those priests and bishops who clearly did evil with their sex abuse or just moving pedophile priests around versus just attacking the Church in a bigoted fashion through mass blame.

IOW, it's "kosher" to blame the culprits but not "kosher" to blame the entire organization. There's quite a bit of crime in this country but we don't blame all in the country or all political officials for it.

How widespread does the abuse have to be before one can accuse the Church of SYSTEMIC corruption? Even the Pope, by calling a worldwide summit, has basically acknowledged the extent of the problem.

Again, take my comments in context. The Catholics aren't the only ones with this problem. They are just the only organization big enough for it to be a constant news story (that and the media really hates the Catholic Church). Try getting some poor Chasid family to come out of the woodwork about the Rabbi when it means being accused of lashon hara and mesirah and being shunned by their whole community.

 

[metis]

How widespread does the abuse have to be before one can accuse the Church of SYSTEMIC corruption?

I covered that in a previous post here whereas I mentioned that in the Protestant church I grew up in, there were three scandals and yet not one article even in the local papers about it. Am I gonna blame Judaism because of Bernie Madoff and Michael Cohen?

Again, take my comments in context. The Catholics aren't the only ones with this problem. They are just the only organization big enough for it to be a constant news story (that and the media really hates the Catholic Church).

It's easier by far to blame a conspicuous organization while not really getting much information on smaller organizations, as I alluded to above. Not only have there been numerous scandals within Judaism, there undoubtedly still are some unresolved. Am I to blame all of Judaism for that? No way.

Then I believe the same should be true with how one deals with the Catholic church or any other church or branch of Judaism. It is not only important, it's also moral to only blame those that committed these crimes, which were a small minority of priests and the specific bishops that just moved them around.

Also, not only has the Church taken measures to confront the problem, the rate of these allegations has sharply fallen off. Mind you that I agree that Church hierarchy was way too slow to adequately react, but progress is being made. Doesn't that count for at least something?

IMO, blanket condemnations are unethical, not only by Christian standards but also by halacha, so to blame an entire organization because of the actions of a minority simply is not ethical, imo. If you disagree, then we are simply going to realize that we will never agree on this and just leave it at that.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Also, not only has the Church taken measures to confront the problem, the rate of these allegations has sharply fallen off. Mind you that I agree that Church hierarchy was way too slow to adequately react, but progress is being made. Doesn't that count for at least something?

Here I have some measure of disagreement.

Reports of abuse are considerably less than, say, 30 years ago. But they are still coming in. What is WORSE is that some of the bishops are STILL covering up and trying to save the Church rather than the victims. All the reforms put into place back in 2002 by the conference of bishops were supposed to keep these things from happening again. Yet those exact same things are what came to light in the Summer of Shame.

I am a firm believer in the reality of our duality of our nature -- the inclination to good and the inclination to evil. I was not holding my breath for any real reforms to come out of this latest summit, so I am not disappointed. Indeed, I think that real reform will take a very long time.

As for the summit, authentic reform would have taken these things:
1. A new rule stating that likely offenders MUST be reported to the civil authorities, and making priests mandated reporters. On this there appears to be at least some progress -- it was discussed. I'm not sure if anything binding was passed, though.
2. The scandal needed to be widened to include all vulnerable people exploited by those in authority over them, such as nuns and seminarians. It was not. It's almost as if to say that it's not really a problem unless it's children they are molesting.
3. The connection needed to be made with homosexuality in the priesthood. 80% of the molests have not been incidents of pedophilia (attraction to pre-pubescent children) but of pederasty (attraction to boys who have gone through puberty). The PC crowd can kick and scream all they like and say that homosexuality is not the issue, but the research shows otherwise. The summit basically was a farce because it refused to address the elephant in the room.
4. The bishops need to be held responsible. This is the one area that the summit did seem to make some progress. The status quo has been that bishops report directly to Rome, which is unruly. The new proposal is that bishops report to a Metropolitan, which forms investigative bodies which include laity.

 

[metis]

What is WORSE is that some of the bishops are STILL covering up and trying to save the Church rather than the victims.

Tell that to the bishop that was just defrocked earlier this week. Pope Francis has repeatedly made it clear that both priests and bishops will be held accountable, and that was repeated at last weeks conference.

1. A new rule stating that likely offenders MUST be reported to the civil authorities, and making priests mandated reporters. On this there appears to be at least some progress -- it was discussed. I'm not sure if anything binding was passed, though.

It is binding as the Pope has made it binding with the acknowledgement of the council.

2. The scandal needed to be widened to include all vulnerable people exploited by those in authority over them, such as nuns and seminarians. It was not. It's almost as if to say that it's not really a problem unless it's children they are molesting.

It does cover any and all aspects of sexual abuse, and it is simply wrong for you to claim it only applies to children that are molested.

The PC crowd can kick and scream all they like and say that homosexuality is not the issue, but the research shows otherwise.

It appears to be true that there's more likely such a connection with some, but one still has to remember that we're talking about a very small number of priests and bishops. And yes, before someone else posts it, even one is too much.

BTW, do you think there are any homosexuals in Judaism? Do you think that there are any people, children or not, that have been sexually assaulted by a Jew somewhere? I notice that you didn't address similar questions relating to crimes by Jews by me in my last post.

4. The bishops need to be held responsible. This is the one area that the summit did seem to make some progress.

They have been put on notice, as well as have the priests and as well as the laity. Any such allegations of abuse must be reported to the civil authorities.

Anyhow, in concluding this with you, it is neither ethical nor legal in a democratic system operating under democratic values to punish the innocent. Making blanket accusations also defies halacha as it is a form of public demeaning of innocents.

As for myself, it has been very upsetting to know that such abuse has been taking place within the Church, and just a reminder that our youngest daughter was one of them (she was groped by the choir director, who was fired but then we found out that he ended up getting hired by another Catholic church several miles away).

I have not and will not make excuses for the denials and mishandlings by the Church leadership, but at least the Church has finally bitten the bullet and has been making changes that are now covered every single week at mass.

Take care as I'm done repeating myself.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

BTW, do you think there are any homosexuals in Judaism? Do you think that there are any people, children or not, that have been sexually assaulted by a Jew somewhere? I notice that you didn't address similar questions relating to crimes by Jews by me in my last post.

I have said from the very beginning of this thread and throughout that I don't think this scandal is a "Catholic Thing." It is a cultural malaise which infects all groups where children are entrusted: the scouts, little league, the foster care system... I made it very clear that ALL religious groups have this problem, if not in a particular congregation, certainly in the denominational group.

AND I specifically gave the JEWISH example of how there is a serious problem with the unwillingness to report molestation in the Chasidic community, given the willingness of that community to label truth tellers as exhibiting lashon hara (evil tongue, gossip) and mesirah (going to civil authorities when it is appropriate to only go to the Jewish courts). Families who make waves about abusive rabbis in those communities are shunned. It's a serious problem.

So please don't be overly sensitive about this thread. My interest here is that how the Catholic Church eventually deals with it will provide the template for everyone else. And the longer THEY take, how much longer will it be for the rest of us.