The Hijab Problem

[icehorse]

You cannot hide behind bad analogies and waffle!

Just name it!

Name what? The 500 times that the Quran criticizes non-Muslims? The many times it is misogynistic? Seriously, what is it you think I should name?

And, BTW, I think the Bible analogy was spot on!

 

[Subduction Zone]

You got half of that right, so 5/10.
The problem is continually addressed, but has never improved.

I disagree, but then with such a claim you can prove that there has been no improvement I am sure.

You probably didn't notice, but many of us pushing back at this thread are not Muslims.

Why do you say such foolish things? Let's try to avoid personal attacks, especially obviously false ones.

So a whole bunch of countries are attached to tenets, rules, expectations and laws which you don't like. It can't just be Islamic countries...... can't be...... and so, it's up to the citizens and subjects of those countries to decide what they want. Let's face it, the west only interferes when value, riches, money, power, status and wealth are involved.
But where I live Muslim women are being given support towards equality in ever way, and if they still want to wear the hijab, a very few of them, for whatever reasons, then that's their prerogative.

There are all sorts of wrongs all over the Earth. This thread is about only one of them. Problems need to be dealt with individually. There is no magic wand to wave and cure all of them at once. Yes, in England, and in the U.S. women are not forced to wear the hajib, but their can still be undue pressure by their peers to do so. Society as a whole does not because Muslims are a rather tiny minority. If a women truly wants to wear the hajib I have no problem with it. I do not like France's attempts to make the wearing of it illegal. That is as bad as places that try to make wearing it a law.

 

[Remté]

Name what? The 500 times that the Quran criticizes non-Muslims? The many times it is misogynistic? Seriously, what is it you think I should name?

And, BTW, I think the Bible analogy was spot on!

I think they're talking about the earlier topic, but I don't see that "500 time that the Quran criticizes non-Muslims" is a relevant reference. It is too vague.

It is quite clear you have not understood the first thing about the Quran. Neither have you understood what is meant when it is said that the Quran is clear.

 

[oldbadger]

Name what?

What you offered....as now shown to you....

icehorse said: ↑
How about a society in which women aren't coerced from either end of the spectrum?

So...... how about it?

The 500 times that the Quran criticizes non-Muslims? The many times it is misogynistic? Seriously, what is it you think I should name?

What you offered....as now shown to you..... yet again!

icehorse said: ↑
How about a society in which women aren't coerced from either end of the spectrum?

So...... how about it?

It's no good to propose a society in which women are not coerced, and then be unable to think of even one.

It just looks like a rather weak case.

 

[oldbadger]

I disagree, but then with such a claim you can prove that there has been no improvement I am sure.

OK........... name any part of a western society or community...... any part, any function.

Why do you say such foolish things? Let's try to avoid personal attacks, especially obviously false ones.

You tell me that I say foolish things and then suggest thatv 'we' avoid personal attacks.

There are all sorts of wrongs all over the Earth. This thread is about only one of them. Problems need to be dealt with individually. There is no magic wand to wave and cure all of them at once. Yes, in England, and in the U.S. women are not forced to wear the hajib, but their can still be undue pressure by their peers to do so. Society as a whole does not because Muslims are a rather tiny minority. If a women truly wants to wear the hajib I have no problem with it. I do not like France's attempts to make the wearing of it illegal. That is as bad as places that try to make wearing it a law.

So what do you think should be done, exactly?
Please come up with your suggestions about ending things that you don't like.

 

[Subduction Zone]

OK........... name any part of a western society or community...... any part, any function.

This is a dodge. You made a claim and won't support it.

You tell me that I say foolish things and then suggest thatv 'we' avoid personal attacks.

Not really. I know you for example. You know that I know your beliefs. That makes your post foolish since it was obviously wrong even to you. It was done as a personal attack. And please note that it was your statement that was foolish. You should have admitted that.

So what do you think should be done, exactly?
Please come up with your suggestions about ending things that you don't like.

The first thing that needs to be done is for Muslims to admit that there is a problem. Our problems could not be treated and until it was admitted that there was one. That is the first step.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Speaking for myself, I'm critical of some ideas (e.g. many of Islam's ideas are bad), not a section of humanity. An individual can choose to change their mind and abandon bad ideas, correct?

For me I differentiate between what comes from Islam and what is made up by the clergy. To me, at the time, everything given by God to humanity through the Quran for that age was good for that time. But for this age many laws are in need of renewal because they are outdated and not suited to our age.

But what the clergy teach and many Shariah laws are not from the Quran or Islam at all but concoctions of the mullahs.

So to me Muhammad was of pure character and the Quran the Wird of God but the leaders not so.

 

[loverofhumanity]

We're worried about the women who are forced to wear it, or worse.

I think moreso that women are educated from early childhood in their culture that it is noble and represents modesty.

Are we the ones making an issue of it because of prejudice against Islam looking for anything to latch onto to degrade it or are millions of Muslim women rising up in protest all over the world against it?

I think it is more something those prejudiced against Muslims seek to use to keep hatred of Islam , Muslims , the Quran and Muhammad alive and kicking because I don’t see the same concern shown towards women of the west who are being used and exploited as sex objects. I find it hypocritical that concern is not shown for all women but only Muslim women as if western women are treated with respect and dignity which they are not.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No, my shadow does not prove that the sun exists, it only proves at best that I am blocking some source of light. But not even that. Multiple sources of light could illuminate an area and leave a Subduction Zone shaped area not illuminated.

The human body is the result of evolution, a well understood concept, no intelligence needed. A "gee whiz" argument is even weaker

Laws are not "intelligent". Laws only describe what we observe in the universe. To call them laws in the same sense as man made ones is an equivocation fallacy.

You need to find evidence for your god, your arguments do not even begin to show that there is a god. All you have are logical fallacies at this point in time. Most atheists are such because there is no rational evidence for a god. For the same reason that you probably do not believe in fairies I do not believe in gods.

T

I was a very stout atheist for a long time. My understanding now is I made a huge mistake and miscalculation. There are other senses such as inner perception which once developed sufficiently enables us to perceive truth and when that was developed I could see clearly as the sun God exists.

 

[icehorse]

I think they're talking about the earlier topic, but I don't see that "500 time that the Quran criticizes non-Muslims" is a relevant reference. It is too vague.

It is quite clear you have not understood the first thing about the Quran. Neither have you understood what is meant when it is said that the Quran is clear.

By what authority do you make that claim? I can say that if you disagree with me, you're the one who doesn't understand the Quran. I've already said that I've read it. And I've asked you if you have, and you have not yet answered.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I was a very stout atheist for a long time. My understanding now is I made a huge mistake and miscalculation. There are other senses such as inner perception which once developed sufficiently enables us to perceive truth and when that was developed I could see clearly as the sun God exists.

Theists will proclaim their belief yet they cannot give rational reasons for their belief. You gave a series of very poor arguments that only demonstrated a lack of understanding of how to apply logic to a problem. Can you think of any valid reasons for your beliefs? No appeals to emotion. No "gee whiz" arguments.

 

[icehorse]

It's no good to propose a society in which women are not coerced, and then be unable to think of even one.

Asked and answered. I really feel that we're not able to have a dialog today. We don't seem to be communicating on even the most basic levels. Have a fine day.

 

[icehorse]

For me I differentiate between what comes from Islam and what is made up by the clergy. To me, at the time, everything given by God to humanity through the Quran for that age was good for that time. But for this age many laws are in need of renewal because they are outdated and not suited to our age.

But what the clergy teach and many Shariah laws are not from the Quran or Islam at all but concoctions of the mullahs.

So to me Muhammad was of pure character and the Quran the Wird of God but the leaders not so.

I think I agree with you. If I understand you, you're saying that we should not rely on the clergy but instead rely on what's in the scripture? If so, we're agreed! I also agree that renewal is necessary at this point.

 

[icehorse]

I think moreso that women are educated from early childhood in their culture that it is noble and represents modesty.

Are we the ones making an issue of it because of prejudice against Islam looking for anything to latch onto to degrade it or are millions of Muslim women rising up in protest all over the world against it?

I think it is more something those prejudiced against Muslims seek to use to keep hatred of Islam , Muslims , the Quran and Muhammad alive and kicking because I don’t see the same concern shown towards women of the west who are being used and exploited as sex objects. I find it hypocritical that concern is not shown for all women but only Muslim women as if western women are treated with respect and dignity which they are not.

What's tricky about this is that Islam makes it so hard for women to speak up. In many Muslim countries it's almost impossible for a woman to say that she's been raped, and have it stand up in court. AND, if it doesn't stand up in court, then the woman can be punished! In this sort of system, it's hard to say how much is coerced and how much is not.

As for the comparison to the west, for the sake of discussion I could agree with you, but that's beside the point. Let's say there are two forms of misogyny. Can't we try to solve one problem at a time?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Simple question "Do you see flaws in Islam and Koran?"

Sure. Otherwise I'd be a Muslim, I guess. What's your point?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

We're worried about the women who are forced to wear it, or worse.

You criticise Islamic culture's arbitrary dress code, but do you criticise Western culture's arbitrary dress code?

I reiterate my comment from #143 The Hijab Problem

 

[icehorse]

You criticise Islamic culture's arbitrary dress code, but do you criticise Western culture's arbitrary dress code?

I reiterate my comment from #143 The Hijab Problem

Well two points really:

1 - Some women in the west feel pressure to wear what the magazines say they should wear. (And while fewer, some men in the west do the same.) But many women in the west wear what they darn well want to wear, and for them there is no punishment. But in many Muslim majority countries a woman can be punished for wearing the "wrong" clothes. So it's a weak comparison at best.

2 - Even if it was a strong comparison, aren't you using the "two wrongs make it right" argument?

 

[stvdv]

Sure. Otherwise I'd be a Muslim, I guess. What's your point?

I was just curious. I see you defending Islam a lot, so I thought maybe you are "almost" Muslim.

Yes that's true, if there were no flaws in Islam/Koran then I also might have been a Muslim.

= = =
That is an interesting thought; generating some thoughts in me. Maybe all religious humans would be Muslims if there were no flaws in Islam, unless of course there are other religion that are also flawless or if they were too blind to see Islam is flawless or ....

So big part of humanity seems to lacks "good discrimination". Many of the Muslims say Islam is flawless, while many others say Islam has flaws. One of them must be wrong it seems to me. Or could Islam be both "flawless and with flaws"?

Maybe one should be flawless himself to be able to correctly know "Islam/Koran to be flawless". To know something is flawless, you need to know "everything" about it and know that every bit is flawless. All those Muslims who claim this, must indeed be `quite a bit` omniscient. So if that is true then those Muslims are `quite a bit` God/Allah themselves (who is said to be omniscient).

Hence I never claim to know that my religion is flawless.

 

[Remté]

I was just curious. I see you defending Islam a lot, so I thought maybe you are "almost" Muslim.

Yes that's true, if there were no flaws in Islam/Koran then I also might have been a Muslim.

= = =
That is an interesting thought; generating some thoughts in me. Maybe all religious humans would be Muslims if there were no flaws in Islam, unless of course there are other religion that are also flawless or if they were too blind to see Islam is flawless or ....

So big part of humanity seems to lacks "good discrimination". Many of the Muslims say Islam is flawless, while many others say Islam has flaws. One of them must be wrong it seems to me. Or could Islam be both "flawless and with flaws"?

Maybe one should be flawless himself to be able to correctly know "Islam/Koran to be flawless". To know something is flawless, you need to know "everything" about it and know that every bit is flawless. All those Muslims who claim this, must indeed be `quite a bit` omniscient. So if that is true then those Muslims are `quite a bit` God/Allah themselves (who is said to be omniscient).

Hence I never claim to know that my religion is flawless.

Are you ready to disclose the flaws you see in the Quran?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I was just curious. I see you defending Islam a lot, so I thought maybe you are "almost" Muslim.

Yes that's true, if there were no flaws in Islam/Koran then I also might have been a Muslim.

= = =
That is an interesting thought; generating some thoughts in me. Maybe all religious humans would be Muslims if there were no flaws in Islam, unless of course there are other religion that are also flawless or if they were too blind to see Islam is flawless or ....

So big part of humanity seems to lacks "good discrimination". Many of the Muslims say Islam is flawless, while many others say Islam has flaws. One of them must be wrong it seems to me. Or could Islam be both "flawless and with flaws"?

Maybe one should be flawless himself to be able to correctly know "Islam/Koran to be flawless". To know something is flawless, you need to know "everything" about it and know that every bit is flawless. All those Muslims who claim this, must indeed be `quite a bit` omniscient. So if that is true then those Muslims are `quite a bit` God/Allah themselves (who is said to be omniscient).

Hence I never claim to know that my religion is flawless.

I don't think I've ever defended Islam, have I? I think it's a pretty silly religion. I point out hypocrisy when I see it, though.