Why did God send Messenger to convey His message instead of directly coming to speak?

[Remté]

If god is unknowable, then how can a go-between know it?

Who says they do?

 

[ratiocinator]

That's just a hypothesis. It doesn't make a thing bad.

What is just a hypothesis? That believing something without evidence is irrational? How can it not be? That irrational beliefs in different gods cause conflict, suffering and death? Seriously?

 

[Remté]

What is just a hypothesis? That believing something without evidence is irrational? How can it not be? That irrational beliefs in different gods cause conflict, suffering and death? Seriously?

That is causes anything bad

 

[ratiocinator]

Who says they do?

How can they be go-betweens when they know nothing about one of the entities they are supposed to be... err... going between? How can that work?

 

[Remté]

How can they be go-betweens when they know nothing about one of the entities they are supposed to be... err... going between? How can that work?

It wasn't said "know nothing about"

 

[ratiocinator]

That is causes anything bad

Is this actually serious? People being absolutely certain of their religion has never caused suffering and death? Did you look at the news... err... ever?

 

[ratiocinator]

It was said "know nothing about"

Eh?

 

[Remté]

Is this actually serious? People being absolutely certain of their religion has never caused suffering and death? Did you look at the news... err... ever?

You are slipping from your original argument.

 

[Remté]

Eh?

Sorry, I mean it Wasn't said "know nothing about."

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Quran has both clear verses and less clear ones and it is instructed that if a verse is unclear it should not be "made clear" on possibly false assumptions.

"He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding." 3:7​

I agree. Because on one hand Quran says God is invisible, but on the other hand these verses appear to say, God will appear on the earth, thus, it is Not Clear how exactly that happens. And if we follow the instruction in 3:7, then we have to accept that, we do not know the interpretation of these verses, and only God knows their interpretation! Now, that brings another question:
First this is that why would there be unclear verses in the Quran?
Second if no one knows their interpretation except for God, then what is the benefit of these verses if we cannot possible know their interpretation?
Third, is to realize there is a prophecy in this verse:
"But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings"
The question is, did this prophecy fulfil? And did those whose hearts is perversity follow its allegorical? And if yes, who were these in the history of Islam?

 

[ratiocinator]

You are slipping from your original argument.

Nope. People believing things without evidence can, and does, cause conflict, suffering and death. I was pointing out there are examples aplenty in the news (and throughout history).

Sorry, I mean it Wasn't said "know nothing about."

How can you know anything about something that is unknowable?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If god is unknowable, then how can a go-between know it?



Aren't most prophets and messengers supposed to be human? I guess you could argue about Jesus from the Christian perspective, but Mohammed, and the other prophets?

I actually dont know how Muhammad knows god. Maybe he had a mystic experience of somesort. What I'm confused over is when did the connection between human and divinity stop to where no one today has the same relationship.

If we transported someone today to christ or bahaullahs period, which is more recent would they still believe bahallah or christ as divine in some way?

But, I think it's an experience to which for a reason god chose one human over another.

 

[Remté]

First this is that why would there be unclear verses in the Quran?

To test and to give an idea about things that cannot be put into clear words. Like God wants us to understand some things about the future such as that we will be returned to him and our deeds will be counted but he doesn't want us to know the details - it would ruin the test at least.

To explain scientific facts to people of Muhammad's time and after.

Third, is to realize there is a prophecy in this verse:
"But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings"
The question is, did this prophecy fulfil? And did those whose hearts is perversity follow its allegorical? And if yes, who were these in the history of Islam?

In Quranism proof of this is seen in the Hadiths. The Quran says God will allow the forgeries of his word to be made to test who is true in faith.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

To test and to give an idea about things that cannot be put into clear words. Like God wants us to understand some things about the future such as that we will be returned to him and our deeds will be counted but he doesn't want us to know the details - it would ruin the test at least.

To explain scientific facts to people of Muhammad's time and after.

In Quranism proof of this is seen in the Hadiths. The Quran says God will allow the forgeries of his word to be made to test who is true in faith.

Agreed on both. But there seems to be more into it.
Verse 3:7 can be read in two different ways, Since in Quran, there is no comma sign. One way was as the translation you quoted. Another way is as follows:

"He it is Who has sent down the Book upon thee; therein are signs determined; they are the Mother of the Book, and others symbolic. As for those whose hearts are given to swerving, they follow that of it which is symbolic, seeking temptation and seeking its interpretation. And none know its interpretation save God and those firmly rooted in knowledge. They say, “We believe in it; all is from our Lord.” And none remember, save those who possess intellect."

The difference is, the second translation says, only God and those who are firm in knowledge know its interpretation, whereas your first translation says only God knows!
But when we look at the whole Quran, we see the Preophets and chosen ones of God were given the knowledge of interpretation of allegorical prophecies. Example of this, is in, Surrah of the Joseph. Joseph knew interpretations of future events. So, now the question is, how should verse one be read? First translation or second, and why? Is it possible someone is called firm in knowledge by God, and yet does not know interpretation of His Book?


Also, Quran 7:52 and 53 suggests the interpretation of the Book shall come later, on the Day of Resurrection:
"And now have we brought them the Book: with knowledge have we explained it; a guidance and a mercy to them that believe. What have they to wait for now but its interpretation? When its interpretation shall come, they who aforetime were oblivious of it shall say, "The Prophets of our Lord did indeed bring the truth; shall we have any intercessor to intercede for us? or could we not be sent back? Then would we act otherwise than we have acted." But they have ruined themselves; and the deities of their own devising have fled from them!" 3:52-3

Question is how it would come?

 

[Marcion]

He came directly and spoke. You just missed Him and still you don't recognize Him now He has once again left this planet physically.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

You mean apart from causing conflict, suffering, and death? It's irrational - which, apart from anything else, is one reason why it tends to cause conflict, suffering, and death,

“It” does NOT cause conflict, suffering, and death.

People do.

 

[Remté]

Agreed on both. But there seems to be more into it.
Verse 3:7 can be read in two different ways, Since in Quran, there is no comma sign. One way was as the translation you quoted. Another way is as follows:

"He it is Who has sent down the Book upon thee; therein are signs determined; they are the Mother of the Book, and others symbolic. As for those whose hearts are given to swerving, they follow that of it which is symbolic, seeking temptation and seeking its interpretation. And none know its interpretation save God and those firmly rooted in knowledge. They say, “We believe in it; all is from our Lord.” And none remember, save those who possess intellect."

Whose translation is this one? Many seem to be leaning on the first one:

Sahih International: It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

Pickthall: He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

Yusuf Ali: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Shakir: He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

Muhammad Sarwar: It is God who has revealed the Book to you in which some verses are clear statements (which accept no interpretation) and these are the fundamental ideas of the Book, while other verses may have several possibilities. Those whose hearts are perverse, follow the unclear statements in pursuit of their own mischievous goals by interpreting them in a way that will suit their own purpose. No one knows its true interpretations except God and those who have a firm grounding in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All its verses are from our Lord." No one can grasp this fact except the people of reason.

Mohsin Khan: It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Quran). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkam (commandments, etc.), Al-Fara'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabari).

Arberry: It is He who sent down upon thee the Book, wherein are verses clear that are the Essence of the Book, and others ambiguous. As for those in whose hearts is swerving, they follow the ambiguous part, desiring dissension, and desiring its interpretation; and none knows its interpretation, save only God. And those firmly rooted in knowledge say, 'We believe in it; all is from our Lord'; yet none remembers, but men possessed of minds.

Those are all I found for now.

But when we look at the whole Quran, we see the Preophets and chosen ones of God were given the knowledge of interpretation of allegorical prophecies.

Does it say so? Where?

Example of this, is in, Surrah of the Joseph. Joseph knew interpretations of future events.

That is just one occation. I mean in the Quran, one story.

Is it possible someone is called firm in knowledge by God, and yet does not know interpretation of His Book?

Depends what you mean by interpretation. Plenty of the scholars *know* the interpretation. Does that mean they know or understand All?

Also, Quran 7:52 and 53 suggests the interpretation of the Book shall come later, on the Day of Resurrection:
"And now have we brought them the Book: with knowledge have we explained it; a guidance and a mercy to them that believe. What have they to wait for now but its interpretation? When its interpretation shall come, they who aforetime were oblivious of it shall say, "The Prophets of our Lord did indeed bring the truth; shall we have any intercessor to intercede for us? or could we not be sent back? Then would we act otherwise than we have acted." But they have ruined themselves; and the deities of their own devising have fled from them!" 3:52-3

Another translation of 3:52-3:

"For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.

Do they just wait for the final fulfilment of the event? On the day the event is finally fulfilled, those who disregarded it before will say: "The messengers of our Lord did indeed bring true (tidings). Have we no intercessors now to intercede on our behalf? Or could we be sent back? then should we behave differently from our behaviour in the past." In fact they will have lost their souls, and the things they invented will leave them in the lurch."
​

Doesn't say anything about interpretation, but fulfilment.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

What is just a hypothesis? That believing something without evidence is irrational? How can it not be? That irrational beliefs in different gods cause conflict, suffering and death? Seriously?

You continue to blame belief in god for conflict, suffering, and death.

That is NOT the root of any evil.

The root is a belief in oneself.

If you believe yourself to be correct and others to be wrong, you now have opened the door to suffering, conflict and death.

God had no part of these evils, or any others.

 

[dybmh]

So, what would be bad about that? It would have saved a large amount of suffering and death.

What's in the least bit good or virtuous about believing something without evidence?

I haven't read all your replies or comments in this thread. I'm replying to your question above.

I'm not sure it's technically good. I think it is somehow productive and pleasurable to the Abrahamic version of God.

On a case by case basis faith is sometimes good, sometimes bad. Judging faith as a singular concept would need to be viewed from the outside from God’s perspective. This would be viewing it as God the investor or as the parent.

Abrahamic God as the investor: knows the outcome of the 401-k, manages and influences the plan, and enjoys watching the progress go up and down.

Abrahamic God as the parent: teaches the child to walk, and lets it fall, and encourages it to try again. Potty-trains the child, forgives the messes, and knows that eventually they will learn to control themselves, knock first, wipe, and hopefully flush.

The Abrahamic God doesn’t want or expect perfection from us. God already has that. Those are the angels. So we, humans, have a different purpose in the Abrahamic framework. It isn’t perfection. Not without perfect indisputable proof.

Maintaining that imperfection requires varied convincing belief systems. And because the Abrahamic God is the ultimate sole creator of everything, that means all of these varied convincing beliefs are also being created and nurtured by God. Because they are convincing, but not proven, faith exists.

But is this faith good?

I vote yes. As long as it is part of a comprehensive respect for other belief systems that coexist and are being concurrently created and nurtured by God. ( Assuming that the Abrahamic God exists )

If the faith leads towards a singular, one world government, one world religion. I vote no; it’s not good. It either encourages forceful conversion and dominance of non-believers or it encourages the “Monsanto” version of religion which seems modern, and peaceful, and simple. But it’s not organic, not natural, or flexible, or fun.

Until faith becomes proven fact, ( and the Abrahamic God could have that at any time ), I think the variance of belief is intended. And I think the Abrahamic God intends for us to respect these other beliefs and non-beliefs as creations from the Almighty.

This acceptance is the ultimate form of trust in God.
It is absolute faith.
That version of faith is good.

 

[dybmh]

And yet it says, God spoke directly to Moses! And this story is described fully in the Torah, that God spoke to Moses directly, and He appeared to Him in the cloud. The verse of Quran clearly repeats same idea, but this time saying God comes to humanity in the clouds!

Respectfully, the translation of the verse in Exodus is discussed here:

God vs Lord God

The Qur'an quote provided says "see".