• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Did Moses break the tablets with God's law on them?

Tumah

Veteran Member
The biblical and the Quranic versions differ. The bible says he was so enraged on returning that he broke the tablets. The Quran doesn't say this. It is clear from the Quran the tablets are not broken. It is said that it would be outragous to claim that Moses would break the tablets. They are from God after all and they have God's law on them and Moses is not a man with a weak nature.

Thoughts?
I'm not really sure I understand why it should matter what the Qur'an says for anyone who isn't a Muslim or academic. That aside, according to Judaism, G-d agreed to Moses breaking the tablets and even provided him with another set.

I can't go into the depths of the idea there with you, but superficially at least, if you look at the verse it says that Moses only got angry after he got to the camp. But he had just finished begging G-d for mercy for this very sin, so why is he only getting angry now? The order of the verse also says, that Moses came close to the encampment and then it says that he broke the tablets at the foot of the mountain. But the encampment was far enough away from the mountain that Joshua, the person Moses first encounters doesn't realize what all the sound is about. That means that Moses actually arrive at the camp, turned around and walked back to the mountain to break them. Deut. 9:17 adds that Moses did this before the eyes of the nation. I think this paints a somewhat different picture: Moses obviously knew what was going on before he got to the camp, that's what he had been praying to G-d for. The whole thing here was a show for the people as a wake-up call. He came to the camp, put his angry face on, got everyone's attention, then turned around and walked back to the mountain and broke the tablets in front of everyone's eyes. Additionally, the tablets represent G-d's Law. According to G-d's Law, they all deserved to die. By breaking them before officially depositing them among the people, it's as though the buyer never received his purchase, the deal was never sealed, so they won't have to all be killed. This gives Moses the opportunity to help the nation repent.
 

Remté

Active Member
I'm not really sure I understand why it should matter what the Qur'an says for anyone who isn't a Muslim or academic. That aside, according to Judaism, G-d agreed to Moses breaking the tablets and even provided him with another set.

I can't go into the depths of the idea there with you, but superficially at least, if you look at the verse it says that Moses only got angry after he got to the camp. But he had just finished begging G-d for mercy for this very sin, so why is he only getting angry now? The order of the verse also says, that Moses came close to the encampment and then it says that he broke the tablets at the foot of the mountain. But the encampment was far enough away from the mountain that Joshua, the person Moses first encounters doesn't realize what all the sound is about. That means that Moses actually arrive at the camp, turned around and walked back to the mountain to break them. Deut. 9:17 adds that Moses did this before the eyes of the nation. I think this paints a somewhat different picture: Moses obviously knew what was going on before he got to the camp, that's what he had been praying to G-d for. The whole thing here was a show for the people as a wake-up call. He came to the camp, put his angry face on, got everyone's attention, then turned around and walked back to the mountain and broke the tablets in front of everyone's eyes. Additionally, the tablets represent G-d's Law. According to G-d's Law, they all deserved to die. By breaking them before officially depositing them among the people, it's as though the buyer never received his purchase, the deal was never sealed, so they won't have to all be killed. This gives Moses the opportunity to help the nation repent.
So this is the way it is in Judaism? How did God agree on breaking them? Can you quote those verses?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I'm not really sure I understand why it should matter what the Qur'an says for anyone who isn't a Muslim or academic. That aside, according to Judaism, G-d agreed to Moses breaking the tablets and even provided him with another set.

I can't go into the depths of the idea there with you, but superficially at least, if you look at the verse it says that Moses only got angry after he got to the camp. But he had just finished begging G-d for mercy for this very sin, so why is he only getting angry now? The order of the verse also says, that Moses came close to the encampment and then it says that he broke the tablets at the foot of the mountain. But the encampment was far enough away from the mountain that Joshua, the person Moses first encounters doesn't realize what all the sound is about. That means that Moses actually arrive at the camp, turned around and walked back to the mountain to break them. Deut. 9:17 adds that Moses did this before the eyes of the nation. I think this paints a somewhat different picture: Moses obviously knew what was going on before he got to the camp, that's what he had been praying to G-d for. The whole thing here was a show for the people as a wake-up call. He came to the camp, put his angry face on, got everyone's attention, then turned around and walked back to the mountain and broke the tablets in front of everyone's eyes. Additionally, the tablets represent G-d's Law. According to G-d's Law, they all deserved to die. By breaking them before officially depositing them among the people, it's as though the buyer never received his purchase, the deal was never sealed, so they won't have to all be killed. This gives Moses the opportunity to help the nation repent.
What was written on the replacement set?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
So this is the way it is in Judaism?
It's not the full idea, but I can explain this much to you.
How did God agree on breaking them? Can you quote those verses?
It's derived from Deut. 10:2, "which you have broken". The Rabbis understand that these words are superfluous to the context and would only serve to embarrass Moses if he was in the wrong. This leads the Rabbis to conclude the opposite, he was in the right and this statement is meant like a pat on the back. We also don't find Moses receiving punishment for this as opposed to, for instance, Num. 20:12.
 

Remté

Active Member
It's not the full idea, but I can explain this much to you.

It's derived from Deut. 10:2, "which you have broken". The Rabbis understand that these words are superfluous to the context and would only serve to embarrass Moses if he was in the wrong. This leads the Rabbis to conclude the opposite, he was in the right and this statement is meant like a pat on the back. We also don't find Moses receiving punishment for this as opposed to, for instance, Num. 20:12.
Deuteronomy 10 Remember the Lord Your God 8 “The whole commandment that Icommand you today vyou shall becareful to do, that you may live andmultiply, and go in and possess the landthat the LORD swore to give to your fathers.2 And you shall remember the whole waythat the LORD your God has led you wtheseforty years in the wilderness, that he mighthumble you, xtesting you yto know whatwas in your heart, zwhether you wouldkeep his commandments or not. 3 And hehumbled you and alet you hunger and bfedyou with manna, which you did not know,nor did your fathers know, that he mightmake you know that cman does not live bybread alone, but man lives by every wordHebrew by all" href="Deuteronomy 10" style="background-color: transparent; color: rgb(114, 171, 191); text-decoration: none;">1that comes from the mouth of the LORD.4 dYour clothing did not wear out on youand your foot did not swell these fortyyears. 5 Know then in your heart that, eas aman disciplines his son, the LORD your Goddisciplines you. 6 So you shall keep thecommandments of the LORD your God bywalking in his ways and by fearing him.7 For the LORD your God is bringing youinto a good land, fa land of brooks of water,of fountains and springs, flowing out in thevalleys and hills, 8 a land of wheat andbarley, gof vines and fig trees andpomegranates, a land of olive trees andhoney, 9 a land in which you will eat breadwithout scarcity, in which you will lacknothing, a land whose stones are iron, andout of whose hills you can dig copper.10 And you shall eat and be full, and youshall bless the LORD your God for the goodland he has given you. 11 “Take care lest you forget the LORDyour God by not keeping hiscommandments and his rules and hisstatutes, which I command you today,12 hlest, when you have eaten and are fulland have built good houses and live inthem, 13 and when your herds and flocksmultiply and your silver and gold ismultiplied and all that you have ismultiplied, 14 ithen your heart be lifted up,and you jforget the LORD your God, whobrought you out of the land of Egypt, out ofthe house of slavery, 15 who kled youthrough the great and terrifyingwilderness, lwith its fiery serpents andscorpions mand thirsty ground wherethere was no water, nwho brought youwater out of the flinty rock, 16 who fed youin the wilderness with omanna that yourfathers did not know, that he might humbleyou and test you, pto do you good in theend. 17 Beware qlest you say in your heart,‘My power and the might of my hand havegotten me this wealth.’ 18 You shallremember the LORD your God, for rit is hewho gives you power to get wealth, sthat hemay confirm his covenant that he swore toyour fathers, as it is this day. 19 And if youforget the LORD your God and go after othergods and serve them and worship them, tIsolemnly warn you today that you shallsurely perish. 20 Like the nations that theLORD makes to perish before you, uso shallyou perish, because you would not obey thevoice of the LORD your God. Not Because of Righteousness 9 “Hear, O Israel: you are vto cross overthe Jordan today, to go in todispossess nations wgreater and mightierthan you, cities great and fortified up toheaven, 2 a people great and tall, xthe sonsof the Anakim, ywhom you know, and ofwhom you have heard it said, ‘Who canstand before the sons of Anak?’ 3 Knowtherefore today that he who zgoes overbefore you aas a consuming fire is the LORDyour God. He will destroy them and subduethem before you. bSo you shall drive themout and make them perish quickly, as theLORD has promised you. 4 c“Do not say in your heart, after theLORD your God has thrust them out beforeyou, ‘It is because of my righteousness thatthe LORD has brought me in to possess thisland,’ whereas it is dbecause of thewickedness of these nations that the LORDis driving them out before you. 5 eNotbecause of your righteousness or theuprightness of your heart are you going into possess their land, but because of thewickedness of these nations the LORD yourGod is driving them out from before you,and that he may confirm fthe word that theLORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, toIsaac, and to Jacob. 6 “Know, therefore, that the LORD yourGod is not giving you this good land topossess because of your righteousness, foryou are ga stubborn people. 7 Rememberand do not forget how you provoked theLORD your God to wrath in the wilderness.hFrom the day you came out of the land ofEgypt until you came to this place, youhave been rebellious against the LORD.8 Even iat Horeb .........
I understand Moses' short temper. It was the example he took from God. I was just thinking of the silly term 'manifestation of God' for a prophet, but this Moses could well be the manifestation of this God in this story. They're both alike.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It was the same in both.
No, you need to read the Bible. It is quite clear about what happened after he broke the first set. It lays it out very clearly in Exodus 34. By the way, this is the only set called the "Ten Commandments" in the text of the Bible itself. Some chapters may be titled that way, but the title was added later.

The Tenth Commandment amounts to a ban on cheese burgers.
 

Remté

Active Member
No, you need to read the Bible. It is quite clear about what happened after he broke the first set. It lays it out very clearly in Exodus 34. By the way, this is the only set called the "Ten Commandments" in the text of the Bible itself. Some chapters may be titled that way, but the title was added later.

The Tenth Commandment amounts to a ban on cheese burgers.
No what?

New International Version I will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. Then you are to put them in the ark."

New Living Translation and I will write on the tablets the same words that were on the ones you smashed. Then place the tablets in the Ark.'

English Standard Version And I will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets that you broke, and you shall put them in the ark.’

Berean Study Bible And I will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke; and you are to place them in the ark.”

New American Standard Bible 'I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered, and you shall put them in the ark.'

King James Bible And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.

Christian Standard Bible I will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets you broke, and you are to place them in the ark.'

Contemporary English Version He told me that he would write on the new stones the same words he had written on the ones I broke, and that I could put these stones in this sacred chest.

Good News Translation and I will write on those tablets what I wrote on the tablets that you broke, and then you are to put them in the Box.'

Holman Christian Standard Bible I will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets you broke, and you are to place them in the ark.'

International Standard Version I'll write on the tablets what was on the first tablets that you broke. Then place them in the wooden chest.'

NET Bible I will write on the tablets the same words that were on the first tablets you broke, and you must put them into the ark."

New Heart English Bible I will write on the tables the words that were on the first tables which you broke, and you shall put them in the ark."

GOD'S WORD® Translation I will write on the tablets the same words that were on the first tablets, which you smashed. Then you will put them in the ark."

JPS Tanakh 1917 And I will write on the tables the words that were on the first tables which thou didst break, and thou shalt put them in the ark.'

New American Standard 1977 ‘And I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered, and you shall put them in the ark.’

Jubilee Bible 2000 and I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou didst brake, and thou shalt put them in the ark.

King James 2000 Bible And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which you broke, and you shall put them in the ark.

American King James Version And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which you brake, and you shall put them in the ark.

American Standard Version And I will write on the tables the words that were on the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.

Brenton Septuagint Translation And thou shalt write upon the tables the words which were on the first tables which thou didst break, and thou shalt put them into the ark.

Douay-Rheims Bible And I will write on the tables the words that were in them, which thou brokest before, and thou shalt put them in the ark.

Darby Bible Translation and I will write on the tables the words that were on the first tables which thou didst break, and thou shalt lay them in the ark.

English Revised Version And I will write on the tables the words that were on the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.

Webster's Bible Translation And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou didst break, and thou shalt put them in the ark.

World English Bible I will write on the tables the words that were on the first tables which you broke, and you shall put them in the ark."

Young's Literal Translation and I write on the tables the words which were on the first tables, which thou hast broken, and thou hast placed them in the ark;
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You might want to work on that reading comprehension. Read the entire sentence. That should help.

Were the"The Commandments " in Exodus 34, the second set made, the same as you see elsewhere in the Bible? And yet it is quite clear that those were to replace the broken set.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I understand Moses' short temper. It was the example he took from God. I was just thinking of the silly term 'manifestation of God' for a prophet, but this Moses could well be the manifestation of this God in this story. They're both alike.
Judaism does not believe in manifestations of G-d, nor that G-d has emotions.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
That is not what the Bible says at all. You are reinterpreting to avoid the self contradiction.
No I'm not, you're creating an unnecessary contradiction. Ex. 34:1 says that G-d would write on the tablets hewn by Moses, the things that were on the first tablets. Ex. 34:28 says that G-d wrote the Ten Commandments on the tablets. The part in the middle was what Moses was told to write. He was not told to write it on the tablets and that interpretation does not logically follow from Ex. 34:1.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No I'm not, you're creating an unnecessary contradiction. Ex. 34:1 says that G-d would write on the tablets hewn by Moses, the things that were on the first tablets. Ex. 34:28 says that G-d wrote the Ten Commandments on the tablets. The part in the middle was what Moses was told to write. He was not told to write it on the tablets and that interpretation does not logically follow from Ex. 34:1.
Now you are not making any sense at all. Don't worry, the Bible is filled with self contradictions.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Now you are not making any sense at all.
Please do clarify.

Don't worry, the Bible is filled with self contradictions.
That's one possibility. I'm not sure it's logical to believe it more likely that a "redactor" left a book filled with contradictions, than to believe that they didn't see those as contradictions to begin with. But whatever gets your boat floating, I guess.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Please do clarify.


That's one possibility. I'm not sure it's logical to believe it more likely that a "redactor" left a book filled with contradictions, than to believe that they didn't see those as contradictions to begin with. But whatever gets your boat floating, I guess.
Do you have a preferred translation?

What most do not realize is that the Old Testament, including the Torah, is much younger than their religion generally teaches them.
 
Top