The religion you would choose if you realized you're gay

[jfietsam]

I'm with the JW thing for the most part. Like I felt that the New Covenant was to show the Greeks and Romans what God could do if you follow His Ways. Then I feel that the "end times" is to now show them that God is to be feared and not mocked. I mean I constantly hear His name used in vein on a regular basis with that term that makes me cringe from just having the thought pass through my head.

I've carefully studied the Bible as well. I think the only thing I disagree with JW on is the New Covenant, and I honestly want to just follow your guys' way, because I'm tired of following alone. I just can't find anyone who can explain to me Matthew 5:17-20:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

When someone can put that into a context that makes sense under the New Covenant, I will gladly attend Kingdom Hall at least once a week. I'm with you guys on birthdays, Christmas, Jesus, and God destroying the world soon. I just didn't think Jesus was perfect. I mean what if one of us went into a church and started flipping over tables? Was Jesus just a special case who could do no wrong in both God's Eyes and man's eyes? Or could he only do no wrong in man's eyes? What if they all called him perfect because they just never judged him? That's a small unimportant detail in the big picture though.

What I want someone to change my mind on is the New Covenant vs the Old Covenant. I don't understand why God would destroy the world under the terms of the New Covenant, and I can't see past Matthew 5:17-20 although I am talking to another JW who's given me some information, and I've done a little looking into it, but I have not read everything he's sent me. So my mind could be changed in the next few hours.

 

[Deeje]

Or the Bible is made up BS, which is the more likely case.

If you think so.....we can all choose what to believe and what to reject. The Bible makes perfect sense to me....it may not to you.
Have you ever really studied it? That means not being swayed by Christendom's version of it.....just allowing it to speak for itself.

 

[Salvador]

I kind of feel like God created men to be straight and women to be bisexual to be honest. If that's not the case, then why would He allow for polygamy? Why is it different for men if their wife dies versus women when their husband dies? I know in today's society, a man can be considered a widow, but that sounds silly and foreign to me after reading the Bible.

Polygamy was practiced among ancient nomadic tribes because the ratio of females to males was greater than it is nowadays. Men were more commonly lost in battle among rival factions of the same tribe or they were lost in battle with neighboring rivals, so then the ratio of females to males was greater; that's why polygamy used to be an acceptable alternative to monogamy.

 

[jfietsam]

Well supposedly women are supposed to outnumber men 7 to 1 at the time of the end. It was also practiced amongst the Israelites not only nomadic tribes. The laws of marriage for men and women are different in the Old Testament as well. I also think that even if I'm not spot on with that statement, there is still some difference between men and women.

 

[Willamena]

Why only one?

If I've one, why would I need more?

 

[blü 2]

Which would you choose and why?

Why would I need a religion if I were gay?

 

[Deeje]

I'm with the JW thing for the most part. Like I felt that the New Covenant was to show the Greeks and Romans what God could do if you follow His Ways. Then I feel that the "end times" is to now show them that God is to be feared and not mocked. I mean I constantly hear His name used in vein on a regular basis with that term that makes me cringe from just having the thought pass through my head.

That is good to hear. We need to cringe from the heart when we see God mocked in any way....it shows a good heart.

I've carefully studied the Bible as well. I think the only thing I disagree with JW on is the New Covenant, and I honestly want to just follow your guys' way, because I'm tired of following alone. I just can't find anyone who can explain to me Matthew 5:17-20:

According to Jeremiah, the "new covenant" was going to replace the old one....not because it was a bad covenant but because it was leading God's people to Christ as Messiah, and he fulfilled it. So let me try to put those verses into perspective with what Jesus actually said.....

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus was a Jew preaching to Jewish people who were all still under law. The old covenant was concluded with his death, and on his return to heaven to present the value of his sacrifice to God, that is when the new covenant (instituted with his apostles on the night before he died) came into force. The holy spirit was then poured out on the disciples and Jesus mission was complete. His disciples would continue what he had started.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

So the word "till" or "until" might go unnoticed there, but that little word is very important.

In Jesus death, all things were "fulfilled" as he said with his dying words...."it has been accomplished".

The words he spoke.....

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

.....are explained in Matthew 22:34-40...

34 After the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they came together in one group. 35 And one of them, versed in the Law, tested him by asking: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

So the divided Pharisee and Sadducees came together as one group, united in their opposition to the one who was exposing them as religious frauds. Trying to trip him up by asking which was the greatest commandment in the Law, Jesus answered by picking just two....to 'love God with all you have and to love your neighbor as yourself'....but verse 40 is the clincher...."On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets."

He said that the whole of the Law was based on just those two.
That means that in fulfilling the old covenant and replacing it with the new, the principles of the old law still applied. He said he didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it.

When someone can put that into a context that makes sense under the New Covenant, I will gladly attend Kingdom Hall at least once a week. I'm with you guys on birthdays, Christmas, Jesus, and God destroying the world soon.

Ask Jehovah to open up your understanding, but open your heart and mind at the same time.

I just didn't think Jesus was perfect.

If Jesus was not perfect, then he failed in his mission. The scales of God's perfect justice remain unbalanced.....he came into the world and endured so much for nothing. Jesus was the perfect equivalent of Adam....the requirement for ransoming his children.

I mean what if one of us went into a church and started flipping over tables? Was Jesus just a special case who could do no wrong in both God's Eyes and man's eyes? Or could he only do no wrong in man's eyes? What if they all called him perfect because they just never judged him? That's a small unimportant detail in the big picture though.

Do you think that getting angry makes a person imperfect? God must be imperfect then. Jesus was a true reflection of his Father so when he saw his Father's house turned into an excuse to extort money from their own brothers, it affected him deeply. And he will come again with his heavenly forces to bring the human race to an accounting as the wickedness on earth continues to escalate...false religion will be the first to go....he has been given that assignment from God as well, and always completes them faithfully.

What I want someone to change my mind on is the New Covenant vs the Old Covenant. I don't understand why God would destroy the world under the terms of the New Covenant, and I can't see past Matthew 5:17-20 although I am talking to another JW who's given me some information, and I've done a little looking into it, but I have not read everything he's sent me. So my mind could be changed in the next few hours.

We can only pray that God's spirit will operate on a willing heart.

From my understanding, the Law was perfect, but the Jews were not. It was a constant reminder of their sinful state and Paul actually called the Law a curse, because no one could keep it.

With Jesus fulfilling it, he removed the curse and replaced it with the Law of Love. So the only obligation we have as Christians is to love God with all we are, and to love our neighbor as ourself. In doing that we fulfill all the principles of the old covenant without having to sacrifice animals all the time because we blew it. Jesus sacrifice has us covered.....as long as we are faithful, forgiveness is assured....so is salvation.

Hope that helps in some way.....

 

[youknowme]

If I've one, why would I need more?

Because other religions might have value that your one does not offer.

 

[youknowme]

If you think so.....we can all choose what to believe and what to reject. The Bible makes perfect sense to me....it may not to you.
Have you ever really studied it? That means not being swayed by Christendom's version of it.....just allowing it to speak for itself.

It only makes sense to you because you don't know how to make sense. The idea that an all-powerful god would send its message though only one book and only one religion is just complete utter nonsense.

 

[Deeje]

It only makes sense to you because you don't know how to make sense. The idea that an all-powerful god would send its message though only one book and only one religion is just complete utter nonsense.

Since I believe that it makes more sense to do that than speak with a forked tongue through thousands of different religions and sects...."One Lord, one faith, one baptism" works for me.

It requires a relationship with the one who created it all....so if you have never had one and don't want one.....why are you whining if other people do?

 

[jfietsam]

That is good to hear. We need to cringe from the heart when we see God mocked in any way....it shows a good heart.



According to Jeremiah, the "new covenant" was going to replace the old one....not because it was a bad covenant but because it was leading God's people to Christ as Messiah, and he fulfilled it. So let me try to put those verses into perspective with what Jesus actually said.....



Jesus was a Jew preaching to Jewish people who were all still under law. The old covenant was concluded with his death, and on his return to heaven to present the value of his sacrifice to God, that is when the new covenant (instituted with his apostles on the night before he died) came into force. The holy spirit was then poured out on the disciples and Jesus mission was complete. His disciples would continue what he had started.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

So the word "till" or "until" might go unnoticed there, but that little word is very important.

In Jesus death, all things were "fulfilled" as he said with his dying words...."it has been accomplished".

The words he spoke.....



.....are explained in Matthew 22:34-40...

34 After the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they came together in one group. 35 And one of them, versed in the Law, tested him by asking: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

So the divided Pharisee and Sadducees came together as one group, united in their opposition to the one who was exposing them as religious frauds. Trying to trip him up by asking which was the greatest commandment in the Law, Jesus answered by picking just two....to 'love God with all you have and to love your neighbor as yourself'....but verse 40 is the clincher...."On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets."

He said that the whole of the Law was based on just those two.
That means that in fulfilling the old covenant and replacing it with the new, the principles of the old law still applied. He said he didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it.



Ask Jehovah to open up your understanding, but open your heart and mind at the same time.



If Jesus was not perfect, then he failed in his mission. The scales of God's perfect justice remain unbalanced.....he came into the world and endured so much for nothing. Jesus was the perfect equivalent of Adam....the requirement for ransoming his children.



Do you think that getting angry makes a person imperfect? God must be imperfect then. Jesus was a true reflection of his Father so when he saw his Father's house turned into an excuse to extort money from their own brothers, it affected him deeply. And he will come again with his heavenly forces to bring the human race to an accounting as the wickedness on earth continues to escalate...false religion will be the first to go....he has been given that assignment from God as well, and always completes them faithfully.



We can only pray that God's spirit will operate on a willing heart.

From my understanding, the Law was perfect, but the Jews were not. It was a constant reminder of their sinful state and Paul actually called the Law a curse, because no one could keep it.

With Jesus fulfilling it, he removed the curse and replaced it with the Law of Love. So the only obligation we have as Christians is to love God with all we are, and to love our neighbor as ourself. In doing that we fulfill all the principles of the old covenant without having to sacrifice animals all the time because we blew it. Jesus sacrifice has us covered.....as long as we are faithful, forgiveness is assured....so is salvation.

Hope that helps in some way.....

Ok I can get on board with a lot of that. But was Jesus only preaching to the Jews? Or was he also preaching to the Romans who were ruling over the Jews at the time? That's something Sunday school never really informed me about. A lot didn't make sense until I did some research on the history of the world in general after reading the Bible. The Bible didn't necessarily give me a good sense of who Jesus was talking to when they refer to the "crowds."

There's some sort of gap between the testaments where the Old Testament leaves off with the Persians ruling over the Jews and allowing them to rebuild their temple then the New Testament picks up with the Jews being under the rule of Caesar.

I think I'm just getting caught up in the fine print of things, because at the end of the day, how am I supposed to know whether the New Covenant or the Old Covenant is active. It's prophesied in Jeremiah that a group will come who does not know God, and God will write His Commandments unto their hearts.

I still don't think Jesus is perfect. God can do whatever He wants, because He can destroy someone's life just to build it back up again. He knows what's on all of our hearts and in our minds. He knows EVERYTHING, and He can do ANYTHING. Jesus on the other hand could not although he could do a lot of cool things other prophets did on a smaller scale before him. To me though, if you don't have the power to fix the damage you do, then you probably shouldn't do the damage which is what makes it ok for God to do what He wants where us humans have to submit our anger and not act on it.

Either way, I guess that can be a little irrelevant. Jesus was just one person who issued the law. Maybe I just deal with the God of the Old Testament, because I don't attend church. I do believe God rules over all of us differently. I was working at a grocery store for part of my time researching, and when I read the Tanakh or Talmud, I felt that I dealt with antisemitism, but that could just be in my head. However, I know that when I read the Quran, I was turned into a Muslim, and my Jewish friend was legitimately scared of me, and I could not stand her. I just turned into a different person, and I couldn't stop talking in a Muslim accent.

Who knows anyways? God is such a mystery, and you simply can't figure Him out. Or I can't at least. As soon as I think I understand Him, He proves me wrong in one way or another. You have definitely given me some stuff to think about and reflect on, because I don't think God wants me isolating the way I have been over the past year and a half. I work during church time tomorrow, so I will not be attending a Kingdom Hall meeting, but maybe I'll attend one of the weekday meetings. Question though: Will everyone be in a suit during the week as they are on Sunday? I don't even own a suit, and I felt rather underdressed in slacks and a button down the last time I attended.

 

[youknowme]

Since I believe that it makes more sense to do that than speak with a forked tongue through thousands of different religions and sects...."One Lord, one faith, one baptism" works for me.

It requires a relationship with the one who created it all....so if you have never had one and don't want one.....why are you whining if other people do?

You just called all other religions a bunch of lies and said all those who don't follow your religion don't have a relationship with God.

You have some twisted and egoistical views.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Since I believe that it makes more sense to do that than speak with a forked tongue through thousands of different religions and sects...."One Lord, one faith, one baptism" works for me.

It requires a relationship with the one who created it all....so if you have never had one and don't want one.....why are you whining if other people do?

Except god's word has been through crude translations, people misusing, countless schisms, surely if it's important to god that we get it right he would send someone here to set us all straight again so we know which religious it is we're supposed to choose.

 

[youknowme]

Except god's word has been through crude translations, people misusing, countless schisms, surely if it's important to god that we get it right he would send someone here to set us all straight again so we know which religious it is we're supposed to choose.

It is actually a bit silly to even think an all-powerful god would speak though books and/or prophets. Surely any wisdom an all-powerful god considers indispensable would be inscribed on our hearts and souls.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Why would I need a religion if I were gay?

Because spirituality defines who you are as a person; and, if you follow a faith that defines who you are as a whole, your sexuality wouldn't be an issue.

 

[youknowme]

Because spirituality defines who you are as a person; and, if you follow a faith that defines who you are as a whole, your sexuality wouldn't be an issue.

Some of us don't need religion to tell us who we are.

 

[jfietsam]

It is actually a bit silly to even think an all-powerful god would speak though books and/or prophets. Surely any wisdom an all-powerful god considers indispensable would be inscribed on our hearts and souls.

Except god's word has been through crude translations, people misusing, countless schisms, surely if it's important to god that we get it right he would send someone here to set us all straight again so we know which religious it is we're supposed to choose.

What is it exactly that you two believe that us Bible believers should believe as well? Will you pull truth from these other religions and sects and bring it to us? If you have grounds for an argument, then by all means, please share what you guys have found that we have not. I will listen with an open mind. If you don't have anything though, then I just don't understand why you guys are discouraging our beliefs... Have Jehovah's Witnesses hurt you in some way? Have they offended you? I know I'm in a religion of one, so it can't be my religion that's hurt you guys that much.

 

[youknowme]

What is it exactly that you two believe that us Bible believers should believe as well? Will you pull truth from these other religions and sects and bring it to us? If you have grounds for an argument, then by all means, please share what you guys have found that we have not. I will listen with an open mind. If you don't have anything though, then I just don't understand why you guys are discouraging our beliefs... Have Jehovah's Witnesses hurt you in some way? Have they offended you? I know I'm in a religion of one, so it can't be my religion that's hurt you guys that much.

So if we disagree it must be out of spite? Is that what you are suggesting?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Some of us don't need religion to tell us who we are.

Spirituality is a fancy word for living your morals and finding your place through what you feel is important, your purpose (if you have one), and your overall sense of self. There are varied ways people live their true selves, usually found the older they get. Some by exercising every morning, volunteering, and taking care of family. Others through prayer (reflection of self-improvement), and, maybe helping others.

I didn't use the term religion in my reply because it has too many negative connotations that it's not seen in its context. It's only seen in relationship with specific religions even though those religions don't define nor own the word as a whole.

 

[Deeje]

Ok I can get on board with a lot of that. But was Jesus only preaching to the Jews? Or was he also preaching to the Romans who were ruling over the Jews at the time? That's something Sunday school never really informed me about. A lot didn't make sense until I did some research on the history of the world in general after reading the Bible. The Bible didn't necessarily give me a good sense of who Jesus was talking to when they refer to the "crowds."

Jesus was sent only to Jews. He did not preach to anyone else unless the special circumstances warranted it. A Phoenician woman begged him for help. (Matthew 15:22-24; Matthew10:5-6) Another exception was the Samaritan woman at the well.

The crowds he fed were all Jews. Gentiles were not yet invited....but their time was coming. Jews got first chance to fill the ranks of the Kingdom because of God's promise to Abraham.

There's some sort of gap between the testaments where the Old Testament leaves off with the Persians ruling over the Jews and allowing them to rebuild their temple then the New Testament picks up with the Jews being under the rule of Caesar.

The prophesies in Daniel fill in those gaps. He saw the march of world powers who had dealings with his people....interpreting King Nebuchadnezzar's dream, he began with Babylon, onto Medo-Persia, then Greece, then Rome and then Britain, later allied with America. The march of world powers ends there. In the days of the current world rulership, God brings his Kingdom in to "crush" all human rulerships out of existence and replaces them. (Daniel 2:44) We are deep into the time of the end.

I think I'm just getting caught up in the fine print of things, because at the end of the day, how am I supposed to know whether the New Covenant or the Old Covenant is active. It's prophesied in Jeremiah that a group will come who does not know God, and God will write His Commandments unto their hearts.

The people who were not God's people were the Gentiles. It was unthinkable that hated Gentiles would ever attain God's blessing apart from the Jews.....but because they could never keep their covenant, God ditched them as his people and chose others from the Gentile nations to fill the ranks. (Matthew 22:1-14)

These were not circumcised in the flesh but were circumcised in heart. They would join their Jewish brothers unitedly serving their God as disciples of Jesus Christ.

I still don't think Jesus is perfect. God can do whatever He wants, because He can destroy someone's life just to build it back up again. He knows what's on all of our hearts and in our minds. He knows EVERYTHING, and He can do ANYTHING. Jesus on the other hand could not although he could do a lot of cool things other prophets did on a smaller scale before him. To me though, if you don't have the power to fix the damage you do, then you probably shouldn't do the damage which is what makes it ok for God to do what He wants where us humans have to submit our anger and not act on it.

OK...you are going to have to clarify this bit....who is Jesus Christ in your understanding? What does Jesus not have the power to fix? You've lost me.

Either way, I guess that can be a little irrelevant. Jesus was just one person who issued the law. Maybe I just deal with the God of the Old Testament, because I don't attend church. I do believe God rules over all of us differently. I was working at a grocery store for part of my time researching, and when I read the Tanakh or Talmud, I felt that I dealt with antisemitism, but that could just be in my head. However, I know that when I read the Quran, I was turned into a Muslim, and my Jewish friend was legitimately scared of me, and I could not stand her. I just turned into a different person, and I couldn't stop talking in a Muslim accent.

Could it be that you are just a little too easily influenced perhaps? A Muslim accent? Wowsers!

God is such a mystery, and you simply can't figure Him out. Or I can't at least. As soon as I think I understand Him, He proves me wrong in one way or another. You have definitely given me some stuff to think about and reflect on, because I don't think God wants me isolating the way I have been over the past year and a half. I work during church time tomorrow, so I will not be attending a Kingdom Hall meeting, but maybe I'll attend one of the weekday meetings. Question though: Will everyone be in a suit during the week as they are on Sunday? I don't even own a suit, and I felt rather underdressed in slacks and a button down the last time I attended.

Proverbs 18:1 helps there. We can get carried away with the thoughts in our own heads......that is never good. We need the company of balanced Christians who are not extreme in either direction. God recommends somewhere in the middle is always a good balanced position. Zeal is good but unbalanced zeal is fanaticism. We are human and need to enjoy life as well as the serious stuff. Soon I believe the world will be plunged into a situation that it will not know how to handle. We all need to use the time left wisely.

The dress code applies only to us. If you don't own a suit but have dressed neatly, no one will care. It shows that you have respect for God's worship and that will be appreciated. We have had people turn up in shorts and T-shirts. Come....and be welcome! Just listen and learn. Are you currently having a Bible study? If not, you'll probably be offered one. Try and study with an elder. You already have good Bible knowledge so you will need someone experienced.

All the best....