The absurdity of Christianity and the sin of unbelief

[Muffled]

I totally fail to see how god making itself human and then being tortured to death (then magicked back to life) has any merit at all, let alone infinite merit. Seems totally bizarre and utterly pointless to me.

Condemning us for something we inherit is unjust.

So Hubert was actually right, we do need to believe this (totally unbelievable) story to avoid condemnation.

I believe the point is that God has demonstrated that He does love His creation and forgives sin.

I believe the condemnation is not for what you were but for your refusal to change.

I believe that what you believe determines the results.

 

[ratiocinator]

I believe the point is that God has demonstrated that He does love His creation and forgives sin.

How on earth does god torturing itself to death and then resurrecting itself demonstrate that? Being more just and fair in the first place would have been better.

I believe the condemnation is not for what you were but for your refusal to change.

So why make us such that we need to change? Given that we do, why not make the message clear and, preferably, make some sense?

I believe that what you believe determines the results.

Which, given the total lack of evidence, logic, or even coherent sense, makes this god totally unjust and unfair.

 

[viole]

I believe God knew the consequences of creating entities with free will. I think it is a matter of risk reward. The reward is worth the risk.

Reward? Does God need rewards?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Not surprising really - I've read the bible and found it to be an incoherent and often self-contradictory mess. I certainly saw no clear message.

Jesus said at Luke 10:21 we need help his Father's (Yahweh's) help to understand it. It's imperative. To get His help, though, we'd have to have His approval. That, of course, requires obedience to Him.

Example: In His Word, He tells us to avoid fornication -- not too hard to interpret (1 Corinthians 6:18). So would a practicing fornicator get His help, you think?
What about a person given to lying, or thievery, or drunkenness?

Now, I'm not accusing you of this...but do you think it possible that you were maybe not genuine in your approach to reading it? That, too, Jehovah God can tell. He will not help adamant skeptics.


Peace to you.

 

[ratiocinator]

Jesus said at Luke 10:21 we need help his Father's (Yahweh's) help to understand it. It's imperative. To get His help, though, we'd have to have His approval. That, of course, requires obedience to Him.

Example: In His Word, He tells us to avoid fornication -- not too hard to interpret (1 Corinthians 6:18). So would a practicing fornicator get His help, you think?
What about a person given to lying, or thievery, or drunkenness?

Now, I'm not accusing you of this...but do you think it possible that you were maybe not genuine in your approach to reading it? That, too, Jehovah God can tell. He will not help adamant skeptics.

So, you seem to be basically saying that the bible doesn't make sense unless you get help from this god of yours but it won't give us any help unless we believe first.

This just gets more an more silly. What rational reason is there to take this nonsensical story at all seriously in the first place?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

So, you seem to be basically saying that the bible doesn't make sense unless you get help from this god of yours but it won't give us any help unless we believe first.

This just gets more an more silly. What rational reason is there to take this nonsensical story at all seriously in the first place?

Unless we "Believe" first?
No, unless you're *trying* to be obedient first. I can tell from your post...you'll never understand it. Until your attitude changes.

But, really, neither do most professing Christian religions. Jesus said to his followers, "love your brothers." (John 13:34-35) He even said to "love your enemies." (Matthew 5:44) Has Christendom done this? No. They've supported their respective nations in times of conflict, joining their countries in bloodshed, disregarding Christ's law of love. (Preferring 'friendship with the world' (James 4:4))
You have to be obedient. -- John 15:14

 

[ratiocinator]

Unless we "Believe" first?
No, unless you're *trying* to be obedient first.

Obedient to what? If you mean this god of yours, then that rather entails believing that it exist, doesn't it?

I can tell from your post...you'll never understand it. Until your attitude changes.

So actually wanting some sort of objective and rational reason before taking something seriously excludes people? Your god only likes the overly credulous and irrational?

So, to sum up, those who are rationally sceptical are condemned - together with those people who are credulous and irrational but, by blind chance, happen to take the wrong (apparent) myth seriously. It's only the credulous, irrational, and lucky who can be saved. I guess the luck has a lot to do with being born into one of the right societies that happen to have the right faith as part of its culture...

Not very just and fair, is it?

 

[columbus]

Jesus said at Luke 10:21

You wanna know something that would make Christianity less overtly deceitful?
If people stopped starting sentences with "Jesus said..." and recognized that what they are really saying is "I think that somebody says that somebody says that Jesus said....".

How about that degree of honesty? Is that beyond your abilities? You don't know what Jesus said about anything whatsoever. There is absolutely no record of anything that Jesus said, according to Jesus. It's all modern Christians claiming to speak for Jesus, when few even understand the language He spoke, much less the Greek that the Gospels were written in.

Don't say "Jesus said...." when it's really @Muffled thinks that Jesus agreed with him on....", which is quite different.
Tom

 

[WalterTrull]

Christianity is one of the most absurd religions in the world. It is a religion that teaches...

Yeah? It's fascinating when someone decides he/she knows what Christianity teaches. My guess is that many Christians would be offended by your claims, even as many, if not most, who consider themselves Christians are offended by each other's claims.

 

[pearl]

Yes, Christianity is founded on absurdity. And, what if its true?

 

[youknowme]

From what you have written here, I don't think you have any understanding of who God is or what the message of the Bible is.

I am fairly sure that can be said of everyone.

 

[Vinayaka]

Ahh, the irony. I don't believe in the sin of unbelief, so I guess I have lots of unbelief.

 

[Vinayaka]

And, what if its true?

Gosh, I've heard this a lot. The Baha'is say it. The fundies say it. Just think ... but what if it's true? Why do people say this? You think that somehow a whole bunch of people who read it are suddenly going to have a spontaneous inner awakening and realise that whomever said it was right all along?

I can visualise about 20 people standing in a circle. In turn each steps into the circle, gives a 3 minute wonderful summary of their belief system, and ends with ... "Just think ... what if what I just said is true?" And the circle goes on , and on, and on, and on, like a Groundhog Day scenario, each individual sounding just as enthusiastic as he was the previous time.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Obedient to what? If you mean this god of yours, then that rather entails believing that it exist, doesn't it?



So actually wanting some sort of objective and rational reason before taking something seriously excludes people? Your god only likes the overly credulous and irrational?

So, to sum up, those who are rationally sceptical are condemned - together with those people who are credulous and irrational but, by blind chance, happen to take the wrong (apparent) myth seriously. It's only the credulous, irrational, and lucky who can be saved. I guess the luck has a lot to do with being born into one of the right societies that happen to have the right faith as part of its culture...

Not very just and fair, is it?

I was simply explaining why the Scriptures make no sense to you.
Really, it's all up to each of us, individually, to receive His help. - Hebrews 11:6

"Right faith"? No...first, one must have a proper, i.e., reverent, heart attitude. Then, with Jehovah God's help, you can develop the right faith.

Pretty much everyone who ever lived, will be given another opportunity, at their resurrection.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

If I steal fifty dollars from you, my mere being sorry is not in and of itself enough to redeem the situation. Justice also demands that I make restitution for that theft by restoring to you what I have stolen. … The Crucifixion was an act of infinite merit made on our behalf.

But if some-one steals from me then the thief is the one who needs to repay me. How could the situation be redeemed by some-one else giving me the money? That still leaves the thief as a thief.

And what is this offence that I have supposedly committed that demands restitution?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

You wanna know something that would make Christianity less overtly deceitful?
If people stopped starting sentences with "Jesus said..." and recognized that what they are really saying is "I think that somebody says that somebody says that Jesus said....".

How about that degree of honesty? Is that beyond your abilities? You don't know what Jesus said about anything whatsoever. There is absolutely no record of anything that Jesus said, according to Jesus. It's all modern Christians claiming to speak for Jesus, when few even understand the language He spoke, much less the Greek that the Gospels were written in.

Don't say "Jesus said...." when it's really @Muffled thinks that Jesus agreed with him on....", which is quite different.
Tom

I rarely say, "Jesus said..." without providing the reference, i.e., the Scripture, where his statement is found.

That should be good enough. If not, well...I'll continue to do it.
If someone says, 'Jesus said this...', I wanna know where in the Bible that statement is found! That's the honest way to do it.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

But if some-one steals from me then the thief is the one who needs to repay me. How could the situation be redeemed by some-one else giving me the money? That still leaves the thief as a thief.

And what is this offence that I have supposedly committed that demands restitution?

The "thief" -- Adam -- is dead.

Someone perfect had to take his place.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

You wanna know something that would make Christianity less overtly deceitful? If people stopped starting sentences with "Jesus said..." and recognized that what they are really saying is "I think that somebody says that somebody says that Jesus said....".

It's not dishonesty, but it is foolishness. If Jesus was God (which he never claimed to be) and aiming to found a new religion (which he never claimed to be doing), then why couldn't he just write a book? Why leave people to rely on Peter's memories written down decades later by Mark, or Matthew's collections of sayings translated differently by pseudo-Matthew and pseudo-Luke?

 

[GoodbyeDave]

The "thief" -- Adam -- is dead. Someone perfect had to take his place.

So if some-one steals from me, I should find some-one else to punish if the thief dies before his arrest?

 

[Faithofchristian]

Christianity is one of the most absurd religions in the world. It is a religion that teaches that God fathered himself, as well as his son, so that his son is his father and his father is his son, and his son's father is his father's father's son. Or something like that. In any case, the deity supposedly died via sacrificing himself to himself to let out all of his wrath toward his creations upon himself. He was mad at humans for their sinful nature that he created them with, and so he took out all of his anger upon himself, so that he could save humanity from going to Hell. The sacrificial atonement covers ALL sins, with the exception of one, namely, the sin of unbelief, which is punishable by an eternity in Hell. All other sins, no matter how evil, are excused, but unbelief in the deity or the sacrifice the deity made is punishable by an eternity of damnation, and in fact is the *only* thing that matters in determining whether one spends eternity in Hell or in the "Kingdom of Heaven" as it is so often referred to. Is this weird or what? Even as a child, I remember thinking about how weird it was that Christianity had such a crazy story, and that BELIEF was the sole criterion for determining one's eternal fate, and that unbelief was the only sin in the religion.

That's because people have no understanding or knowledge how
Christ Jesus is God.
And for what reason it was necessary for God to come in the body of Christ Jesus.