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Left Behind

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
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Yes; in very example of a resurrection in the Bible, it's people's remains that are restored to life; no exceptions.

What did God use to create Adam? He used the elements of the earth......so what prevents him from re-creating the bodies of individuals whose bodies no longer exist, in a similar way?


Q: What about the remains of people whose bodies are no longer intact such as those eaten and digested by critters, burned to ashes, and/or blown to smithereens in war?

A: It was God's intentions from the beginning that human bodies return to the dust from whence they're made. (Gen 3:19)

You don't see a contradiction in this statement? Adam was told only that he would return to the dust....no heaven or hell....just obey and live forever....or die and return to the dust from which humans were fashioned in the beginning.

Q: What if some of the atoms that made my body go into making another person's body after I'm dead? How will God fully restore both our bodies to life seeing as how He will have need of the atoms of each to do so?

A: Specific atoms are all the same; it's not as if there are no two alike; viz: if God needs some carbon atoms to reconstruct your body, He could utilize carbon atoms from a Sequoia cactus and they would work just fine without the slightest need for adjustment because every carbon atom is a precise duplicate of every other carbon atom; viz: all carbon atoms are just one kind of carbon atom.

So it isn't necessary for God to locate all your original carbon atoms in order to reconstruct your original body; He just needs carbon atoms; and they are very plentiful in nature: same with iron atoms, calcium, phosphorus, sodium, hydrogen, nitrogen, etc.

I have to smile at this attempt to teach God science.

Do you really think your speculations are valid? You are guessing. Should we do that? Should we have to?

Q: What good is it to restore my original body to life if it is unsuitable for the kingdom of God? (1Cor 15:50)

A: According to 1Cor 15:35-53 and 1Thess 4:13-17, people destined for the rapture are slated to undergo an amazing transformation likened to the transformation that a seed undergoes when it germinates. However, though the seed is lost in the process, its essential elements live on in the adult plant that it produces.

Yes, those who are chosen for rulership and priesthood in heaven do need to undergo a transformation, just as Jesus did, in order to exist in a spiritual realm. Flesh and blood cannot go there. (1 Corinthians 15:50)

The exact nature of the raptured body is a whole field of lively debate which I will not endeavor to explore at this time; only to say the following:

1) The raptured body will be very much like Christ's raptured body. (Phil 3:20-21)

What was Christ's resurrected body? (There is no "rapture" in scripture) Was it his former body that was resurrected? It was sacrificed for mankind, so why would he take it back? The tomb was empty when his disciples went there, and those who knew him best, did not always recognise him when he "appeared" to them.

What do we know from scripture about spirit beings? Jesus was raised "in the spirit" not the flesh. His flesh was sacrificed and God did not leave Christ's body in the tomb.

Other spirit beings (both angels and demons) materialised human bodies in order to interact with humans.

In Noah's day, rebel angels materialised human bodies and took human women to engage in sex and even produced children. So even though that ability was thereafter denied to the demons, God's angelic messengers continued to appear to humans in human form.

2) The raptured body is capable of dining upon ordinary foods. (Luke 22:15-16)

3) The raptured body is capable of imbibing ordinary beverages. (Matt 26:29)

Materialised angels also ate and drank both with Abraham at Mamre and also with Lot in Sodom. They are in every way, human. So nothing new there.


4) The raptured body is visible to the naked eye. (Acts 1:11, Rev 1:7)

Material bodies usually are. Spirits, OTOH are are invisible. Demons can no longer materialise so they do their damage invisibly through human or material agencies.

Q: Christ was raptured?

A: Yes. (Acts 1:9)

Christ's ascension was a matter of him dematerialising the human body he made for himself. There was no mention of his battered body or the wounds he suffered before his death except when they were needed to convince a doubter. Think about that for a moment. If Jesus was resurrected in the body he sacrificed, then why was it not raised healed? If it was healed, how could Jesus still carry the wounds of his execution? He was a physical wreck when he died.

Jesus was the constant companion of his apostles for three and a half years before his death, but there is no mention of him residing with them afterwards. He "appeared" to them, so as a spirit, he was obviously not in material form unless he needed to be.

Q: You're saying that Christ's crucified dead body was restored to life, and then on the way up to heaven it underwent the very same kind of metamorphosis that raptured people are slated to undergo?

A: Yes. (Acts 1:3, Acts 2:24-32, Acts 13:28-37)

It is true that a transformation of their bodies is necessary.....because flesh and blood cannot exist in heaven. But Christ's body was taken by God because it was prophesied that his flesh would not see corruption in the grave. What happens to the physical bodies of the chosen ones is yet to be seen. The bodies of the apostles were to remain in their graves until Christ returned for them. (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17) Living creatures need a body....one that is appropriate for the real in which they reside.

Q: But how can a physical body walk through solid objects? (John 20:19)

A: Christ walked on water, restored withered limbs, cured people born blind, healed serious diseases like leprosy, restored dead bodies to life, controlled the weather, multiplied fish and bread, turned water into wine, and levitated. Plus; he once said that rocks could be made to speak. (Luke 19:40)

What's one more miracle, more or less? Walking through walls? Disappearing and reappearing? How hard could any of that really be for a man with the powers of God at his disposal?

Well, there is danger in speculation.....all we can do is refer to scripture and see what it has to offer before applying imagination. God's spirit has unlimited power, but it's application is still a mystery to mere humans.

It's curious how people can say they believe in miracles, yet cannot believe that God has sufficient control over the laws of nature to make a physical human body pass through solid objects.
It's as simple as understanding what it means to be able to manipulate matter. We can't do that because we have no understanding of the mechanics of it, but God's spirit can anything. If he can make the laws of nature, then he can circumvent them when he needs to.


As a side point, your quotes that are copied and pasted in your posts are messing up the quote system here for some reason....? Perhaps it has something to do with incompatibility of the two systems?
 

Adziilii

Member
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1 Thess 5:8 . . Since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

The hope of salvation speaks of a specific element of the overall plan.

Acts 23:6-7 . .Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin: My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead.

Rom 8:23-25 . .We ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

When I was young and strong, the resurrection of the dead wasn't very meaningful. But now that I am old and my body is undergoing the ravages of the aging process, it is very meaningful; along with being very comforting to know that when this body of mine finally goes down the drain, it isn't a permanent loss. I have a second body waiting for me that's even better than the first.

2 Cor 5:1-6 . . Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.

. . . For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

This "hope" isn't a wishing hope, nor is it a hope-for-the-best hope, nor a cross-your-fingers hope. The koiné Greek word is elpis (el-pece') which means to anticipate with pleasure and confident expectation; which is no doubt why it's described as a saving hope. In other words: having a new body guaranteed in the bag gives me something wonderful to look forward to; which goes a long ways towards tempering the sadness associated with old age and death.

1 Thess 4:13-14 . . I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
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Adziilii

Member
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Watch for the deliberate misquote in the passage below.

1Cor 15:42-44 . . So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spirit body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spirit body.

Catch the misquote? Well; there is no mention of a sprit body in that passage. The actual word is "spiritual".

The Greek word translated "spiritual" is ambiguous. It doesn't necessarily refer to the characteristics of thin air. Below is a list of spiritual things that bear absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to the bodily chemistry of an angel or a demon.

Spiritual gifts (Rom 1:11)
Spiritual law (Rom 7:14)
Spiritual things (Rom 15:27)
Spiritual people (1Cor 2:15)
Spiritual nourishment (1Cor 10:3)
Spiritual water (1Cor 10:4)
Spiritual rock (1Cor 10:4)
Spiritual counselors (Gal 6:1)
Spiritual blessings (Eph 1:3)
Spiritual music (Eph 5:19)
Spiritual understanding (Col 1:9)
Spiritual housing (1Pet 2:5)
Spiritual sacrifices (1Pet 2:5)

It's apparently been decided, and chipped in stone, by a number of theologians that the spiritual body has to be composed of spirit because of the passage below.

1Cor 15:50 . . Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

But spirit isn't necessarily the default material when flesh and blood are ruled out

It is my opinion that if God was capable of inventing and creating all the natural atomic elements on the periodic table in order to create the current cosmos with all of its forms of life, matter, and energy, then it shouldn't be all that difficult for Him to invent and create yet another set of atomic elements, viz: unnatural elements.

In other words; I expect to be given a superhuman body during the rapture that's composed of atomic elements heretofore unknown by the likes of Albert Einstein, Carl Sagan, and Stephen Hawking.
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Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
When I was young and strong, the resurrection of the dead wasn't very meaningful. But now that I am old and my body is undergoing the ravages of the aging process, it is very meaningful; along with being very comforting to know that when this body of mine finally goes down the drain, it isn't a permanent loss. I have a second body waiting for me that's even better than the first.
Despite some logical ability and an ability to read the Bible you still disagree with me.

In other words; I expect to be given a superhuman body during the rapture that's composed of atomic elements heretofore unknown by the likes of Albert Einstein, Carl Sagan, and Stephen Hawking.
You sure are hard on these guys just for disagreeing with you, and Albert Einstein did something very special when he provided the demonstrable explanation for quanta. He demonstrated that our lives are not gone but have always existed and always will as part of a continuum of time. Therefore though you may seem to die, in reality you are still alive in the past, as physically as now.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Despite some logical ability and an ability to read the Bible you still disagree with me.

You sure are hard on these guys just for disagreeing with you, and Albert Einstein did something very special when he provided the demonstrable explanation for quanta. He demonstrated that our lives are not gone but have always existed and always will as part of a continuum of time. Therefore though you may seem to die, in reality you are still alive in the past, as physically as now.

Who are you talking to?
 
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