Is Jesus the Son of God or God?

[Tranquil Servant]

I've been Christian all my life and have been on an endless journey to find truth when it comes to God our creater. Which lead me to reject the doctrine of the trinity because the idea of God being 3 "persons" in one is just ridiculous and its roots stem from paganism but now I'm questioning the relationship of God the creater and Jesus the messiah. I've always kinda believed that Jesus was both the son of God and God himself and in the bible, Jesus mentions more than once that he and the father are one but that the father is greater than he is so if he isn't God but the son of God then who was he in the beginning because he only became the son of God after Mary was impregnated but in the bible John 1:1-2 it says....
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning......
So is Jesus the manifestation of God's word in the flesh which still makes him God or is he the son of God (a separate being) or is he both at the same time.....Kinda like a clone of God in the form of flesh.....
Ugh! I've never been this confused in my life and its actually troubling my soul

 

[Jollybear]

Water can be liquid, ice or vapor, but its all one.

Or you have a father and a son, but one family.

 

[InChrist]

I believe as the scriptures show Jesus is the Son of God and God Himself. I used to be confused by the trinity and think such a doctrine was ridiculous until I completely trusted and surrendered to Jesus as my Savior. It just all make sense after that. Jesus has to be God to save anyone, only God can save and so many scriptures attest to this truth. There is the human family. One humanity. Humans have human nature, a father, mother and son or daughter are each individual, but all have the same human-nature. I see the same concept in reference to the Trinity. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each individual Persons, yet they all have God-nature. One God.

 

[Trackdayguy]

We are all sons of God

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Water can be liquid, ice or vapor, but its all one.

Or you have a father and a son, but one family.

I've heard this explanation before but if we apply this logic to define the relationship of Jesus the Son to God the Father then water can only be one or at most 2 of these elements at one time and even when water is in the process of freezing or vaporizing it is only briefly water with ice or water with vapor so is the same true with God (and Jesus)? Wouldn't that be putting limitations on God?
I don't believe we should use the laws of science and it's limitations to try to define God when God himself is the one who set the laws and limitations on science. I'm wondering if this is something that I will just have to accept as a mystery too complex to ever fully understand in this life‍

 

[Tranquil Servant]

I believe as the scriptures show Jesus is the Son of God and God Himself. I used to be confused by the trinity and think such a doctrine was ridiculous until I completely trusted and surrendered to Jesus as my Savior. It just all make sense after that. Jesus has to be God to save anyone, only God can save and so many scriptures attest to this truth.

Still don't agree with the "doctrine" but God being the only one who can save us, I totally understand and agree with.

There is the human family. One humanity. Humans have human nature, a father, mother and son or daughter are each individual, but all have the same human-nature. I see the same concept in reference to the Trinity. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each individual Persons, yet they all have God-nature. One God.

See "Individual" that word and "individual persons" is what I have a problem with because an individual person is a whole other being when God specifically constantly says he is the ONE and ONLY true God.....And "nature" only applies to the physical and material world not the spiritual.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I've been Christian all my life and have been on an endless journey to find truth when it comes to God our creater. Which lead me to reject the doctrine of the trinity because the idea of God being 3 "persons" in one is just ridiculous and its roots stem from paganism but now I'm questioning the relationship of God the creater and Jesus the messiah. I've always kinda believed that Jesus was both the son of God and God himself and in the bible, Jesus mentions more than once that he and the father are one but that the father is greater than he is so if he isn't God but the son of God then who was he in the beginning because he only became the son of God after Mary was impregnated but in the bible John 1:1-2 it says....
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning......
So is Jesus the manifestation of God's word in the flesh which still makes him God or is he the son of God (a separate being) or is he both at the same time.....Kinda like a clone of God in the form of flesh.....
Ugh! I've never been this confused in my life and its actually troubling my soul

When that endless search for truth allows, pick up Dover book called Greek Orthodox Patrology which details precisely how philosophical ideas provide the ideas in the Trinity. You won't finish the book, but you will get some of your answers.

In fact, Christianity is very pagan like, not very Jewish in character. Judaism looks for answers in the Torah. Christians are supposed to be Ok with using philosophical ideas since God is everywhere and since philosophy is the study of everything including knowledge. Philosophy is also the study of the world, based upon principles in nature not only in Torah. It is reasonable for a Christian to presume you can learn things about God from it, since it is a study of nature.

Keep in mind God is usually explained by what God isn't rather than what God is, because you aren't supposed to define God who is the 'Not god' of all gods. God is the essence of divinity, that which has divinity in common with gods but nothing else. God doesn't have their local nature, their defined status, their aspects. God doesn't spring from chaos or mate with anyone. God is everywhere but that doesn't define God and merely points out that unlike gods, God isn't local or somewhere. God is not defined but is not a god, and we cannot understand God like gods. Unlike gods which manifest in specific conditions, God doesn't. We have to be willing to look everywhere and under all conditions.

The gospel of John does not explain the concept of the Trinity, but it does allude to Greek philosophy directly, using the word 'Logos' in the process. That is a philosophy word and not a Jewish philosophy word at all. Logos is a word from Hellenism and quite pagan in origin, just like most things in Christianity. Its philosophical and so much so that certain Christians don't believe John belongs in the Bible, but it does belong. Christianity is philosophical and attempts to gather all of God's glory from the four corners of the globe from all walks of life including pagan ones.It has pagan holidays such as Halloween, because God is everywhere not just in church. Like Jesus can touch lepers: Christianity can touch things, eat bacon, shellfish etc. Hence it can benefit from the philosophical concept of the Trinity, a Platonian concept. It picks up ideas, because even Plato can have godly thoughts. Christianity is willing to collect those from wherever they may be, including from Plato, from Druids, from Romans and all places and people. If a good idea appears in a topless bar, Christianity is interested and must go into that bar to get it, because topless bars have God in them. The Trinity is, if you will, that idea which someone went into a topless bar to get; and it is a good thing, too. My point is not that you need to go into a bar but that when you do be prepared for God to meet you, because God is everywhere.

 

[74x12]

I've been Christian all my life and have been on an endless journey to find truth when it comes to God our creater. Which lead me to reject the doctrine of the trinity because the idea of God being 3 "persons" in one is just ridiculous and its roots stem from paganism but now I'm questioning the relationship of God the creater and Jesus the messiah. I've always kinda believed that Jesus was both the son of God and God himself and in the bible, Jesus mentions more than once that he and the father are one but that the father is greater than he is so if he isn't God but the son of God then who was he in the beginning because he only became the son of God after Mary was impregnated but in the bible John 1:1-2 it says....
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning......
So is Jesus the manifestation of God's word in the flesh which still makes him God or is he the son of God (a separate being) or is he both at the same time.....Kinda like a clone of God in the form of flesh.....
Ugh! I've never been this confused in my life and its actually troubling my soul

I suggest reading two posts I made. The first on the nature and mission of the Lord Jesus; where I explain how Jesus is the Son and yet one with God. Btw it's a nontrinitarian view.
On the Nature and Mission of the Lord Jesus

In this 2nd post I show how the Word is One with the Spirit of. God. In fact the Word is God just as John says.
https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/the-logos-is-one-with-the-pneuma.217424/

 

[Ellen Brown]

I've been Christian all my life and have been on an endless journey to find truth when it comes to God our creater. Which lead me to reject the doctrine of the trinity because the idea of God being 3 "persons" in one is just ridiculous and its roots stem from paganism but now I'm questioning the relationship of God the creater and Jesus the messiah. I've always kinda believed that Jesus was both the son of God and God himself and in the bible, Jesus mentions more than once that he and the father are one but that the father is greater than he is so if he isn't God but the son of God then who was he in the beginning because he only became the son of God after Mary was impregnated but in the bible John 1:1-2 it says....
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning......
So is Jesus the manifestation of God's word in the flesh which still makes him God or is he the son of God (a separate being) or is he both at the same time.....Kinda like a clone of God in the form of flesh.....
Ugh! I've never been this confused in my life and its actually troubling my soul

Actually, study lots, and choose our truth. One of my pet peeves is that people just want to sit out there in the pews, fat, dumb and untroubled and let the Pastor tell them. The only problem is that the schlub won't be standing with you to face God with you. It is totally your rap.

So, if you are a Trinitarian, Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are all one. If you are a non-Trinitarian, then they are three beings. Now if you are Muslim, Jesus is a Prophet. and if you are a Jew, well Jesus ain't nuthin.

We all have our different ideas, so peace to you. As for me, you are my brother and that's it. I'm not a good Christian, Muslim, or Jew, so I just say I am an Abrahamic Religionist.

 

[Deeje]

I've been Christian all my life and have been on an endless journey to find truth when it comes to God our creater. Which lead me to reject the doctrine of the trinity because the idea of God being 3 "persons" in one is just ridiculous and its roots stem from paganism

A brilliant observation!

God is one....not three. There are many pagan trinities, but none in the other Abrahamic faiths. Only Christendom has adopted the trinity and it was initially included to make the pagan Romans feel right at home. Constantine incorporated all the favorite pagan beliefs and festivals and just renamed and reshaped them so that the Christians could not object.

but now I'm questioning the relationship of God the creater and Jesus the messiah. I've always kinda believed that Jesus was both the son of God and God himself and in the bible, Jesus mentions more than once that he and the father are one but that the father is greater than he is so if he isn't God but the son of God then who was he in the beginning because he only became the son of God after Mary was impregnated but in the bible John 1:1-2 it says....
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning......
So is Jesus the manifestation of God's word in the flesh which still makes him God or is he the son of God (a separate being) or is he both at the same time.....Kinda like a clone of God in the form of flesh.....
Ugh! I've never been this confused in my life and its actually troubling my soul

This is not as complicated as it looks.....

A few scriptures is all it takes to clear things up.

1) John 1:1 in Greek indicates that there is one true God and a god-like or divine individual spoken about there. It is not so clear in English but very obvious in the Greek.....

In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos. (Mounce Interlinear)

What do you see there? "In the beginning" means what? The Infinite Eternal Creator did not have a beginning, but the Word did. (Revelation 3:14; Colossians 1:15-17)

He was "with" the Creator, but he wasn't the Creator....how do we know? Look for the word "theos" which is Greek for "god" and notice that both the Word and the Creator are given this title.....but in Greek, what does it mean? In Greek a god is "a divine mighty one", so in their religious thinking, there were many gods, all of whom had a name, and collectively they were just called "the gods". So Israel's God was something new to them. There was nothing in their language that described the one God of Israel when his name had been abandoned by the Jews some time before Jesus arrived as Messiah. With no way to distinguish this nameless God as the true God of Israel, they used the definite article "the" (ho) Look how many times "ho" is used in the Greek there. But notice also that there is one "ho theos" and one is just "theos"......Only one God is the Almighty in that verse, the other is a divine mighty one....but not THE Divine Mighty One.

You will notice that in the English "the" is missing from the translation but you can see it in the Greek. This was to indicate a trinity, but it is deception.

To illustrate.....if your name was "Brad Pitt" and someone said that Brad Pitt was coming to a function that they were attending, wouldn't their first question be "THE Brad Pitt"? Meaning the famous one? This is what John 1:1 indicates as well. Jesus is not THE God and he never needed to be.

What other lines of evidence could we use?

As you indicated, Jesus said that 'he and the Father were one'.....but he also said that 'he and his disciples were one with the Father and son' (John 17:22)....so are all Christians part of a trinity or is Jesus using figurative language to indicate unity of thought and purpose?

Going on from John 1:1 to verse 18 it says that "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him."

'No one has ever seen God'...but how many people saw Jesus? Thousands! There he is called "the only begotten god".....can God be begotten? This 'only begotten son' was used as the agency through whom all creation was made to exist, so it isn't speaking about him being born as a human. He was begotten by his Father, who produced him as the "beginning" of his creative works.

Proverbs 8:22; 30-31....."The Lord made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. . . . .I was a skilled craftsman beside Him. I was His delight every day, always rejoicing before Him. I was rejoicing in His inhabited world, delighting in the human race." (HCSB)

Jesus is a creation of his Father, whom he called "the only true God" without including himself. (John 17:3)

In heaven, Jesus still refers to his Father as "my God" (Revelation 3:12) Does God worship himself in heaven???

These are just a few examples in the scriptures to show that Jesus is "the son of God".....that is how he described himself. Not once did he ever call himself God or direct people to worship him.
There is no reason to be confused....the Bible is clear.

 

[Jollybear]

I've heard this explanation before but if we apply this logic to define the relationship of Jesus the Son to God the Father then water can only be one or at most 2 of these elements at one time and even when water is in the process of freezing or vaporizing it is only briefly water with ice or water with vapor so is the same true with God (and Jesus)? Wouldn't that be putting limitations on God?
I don't believe we should use the laws of science and it's limitations to try to define God when God himself is the one who set the laws and limitations on science. I'm wondering if this is something that I will just have to accept as a mystery too complex to ever fully understand in this life‍

Water can be liquid, ice and vapor at the same time, depending on its location.

I dont think its putting limits on God, its just an analogy.

But, in anycase, i dont think God is gonna club us over the head on judgement day if we misunderstand his being and essence.

Imagine on judgement day God saying "so, did you believe jesus was God?" You reply "no, but i still loved or respected him and obeyed his teachings."

God replies "too bad! You did not believe absolutely correctly, damned to hell forever!"

Yea, i think God is more understanding then that.

Judgement day will be based on how we loved.

 

[InChrist]

Still don't agree with the "doctrine" but God being the only one who can save us, I totally understand and agree with.

See "Individual" that word and "individual persons" is what I have a problem with because an individual person is a whole other being when God specifically constantly says he is the ONE and ONLY true God.....And "nature" only applies to the physical and material world not the spiritual.

When I say "nature" in reference to God I'm not referring to physical/material qualities. Essence may be a better word. The Son is the same God- essence as the Father.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Water can be liquid, ice or vapor, but its all one.

Or you have a father and a son, but one family.

A house has many walls but when it is torn down do you call a piece of a wall a house?

 

[Deeje]

i dont think God is gonna club us over the head on judgement day if we misunderstand his being and essence.

There is so much more to this than you seem to realize. One of satan's trade marks is to get God' servants to disobey their God. e.g. When the Israelites were on the brink of entering the promised land, the devil pulled one last maneuver......he let loose the beautiful Moabite women to tempt the men of Israel. It worked, and many of them fell to immorality and idolatry. None of those men made it into the promised land. God's laws were broken and the guilty ones paid for their sin. The devil won but he didn't force them to do anything against their will.

How is the trinity a temptation of the devil? It obscures the true identity of the Living God. It actually puts the son in place of the Father for many who only see Jesus, but never the Father because they believe that they are one and the same being.

God's first Commandment to his people was not to have any other gods in his place. (Exodus 20:3)
The devil wins by again making people break God's law. The son never put himself in God's place.

When Jesus comes on judgment day, he rejects those who claim him as their Lord because he says that they are "workers of lawlessness"....how could that be when they regard themselves as Christians in good standing? They were breaking God's laws. (Matthew 7:21-23) The trinity is only one of them. They said that they had done many things, even powerful works in Jesus' name, but his rejection of them is not negotiable.

Imagine on judgement day God saying "so, did you believe Jesus was God?" You reply "no, but i still loved or respected him and obeyed his teachings."

God replies "too bad! You did not believe absolutely correctly, damned to hell forever!"

Apart from the fact that there is no such thing as "damnation to hell", Jesus showed us the correct way to worship the Father.....not himself. (Luke 4:5-8)

He said "No one comes to the Father except through me".....if he was God why did people need to come to the Father? Why not just come to Jesus?

If Jesus is the mediator (go-between) for humans and his Father; and all of our prayers are to be said in Jesus' name, so as to be conveyed to God in the right way, why do we not need a mediator between us and Jesus? Never once are we instructed to pray TO Jesus....but THROUGH him.

Yea, i think God is more understanding then that.

Let me give you another example......when Israel had been liberated from Egyptian slavery and Moses ascended the mountain to gain some further instruction from God, they thought he was taking too long, so they asked Aaron to make a god for them (obviously like the ones they had seen in Egypt) so they collected all their gold and it was fashioned into a golden calf. Now, the thing is, they called this idol "Yahweh" and had a festival dedicated to him with lots of singing and dancing. But God brought their activities to Moses' attention and told him to go down and put a stop to it. Not until Moses actually saw what they were doing did he lose his temper and throw down the stone tablets on which God had written the Ten Commandments.

Now did Israel think that a festival to the God who had just liberated them was wrong? They were used to seeing idols worshipped in Egypt, and they called the representation of their God by his name.....and yet none of them made it into the promised land except Aaron. Moses gave them an ultimatum.....all who were on God's side were to come to him. Those who did not think they did anything wrong, perished.

What is the lesson?

Judgement day will be based on how we loved.

I believe judgment day will be based on what God has asked of his human children since day one...."obedience". Strict obedience to his laws and how promptly we followed them out of love for him and respect for his sovereign right to hold us to account if we break his laws.

I believe that we can be fooled by the devil into thinking close enough is good enough.....I don't believe it is.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Still don't agree with the "doctrine" but God being the only one who can save us, I totally understand and agree with.

See "Individual" that word and "individual persons" is what I have a problem with because an individual person is a whole other being when God specifically constantly says he is the ONE and ONLY true God.....And "nature" only applies to the physical and material world not the spiritual.

When you read the Book of Judges, it says that ' God raised up "saviors" for the Israelites '...like Gideon, Jephthah, Samson. These ones were 'sent by God', that didn't make them God!

(Who did these ones worship? As Israelites, they worshipped Yahweh.)

Jesus said He was 'sent by God' (John 17:3); Jesus was God's Son (John 10:36), but so was Adam - Luke 3:38.

Regarding the trinity, you might find this interesting:

Highly respected scholar and Catholic priest John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are Gk (Greek) philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(Italics and bold type are mine.) (New York, 1965), p. 899.

Now, this guy was a trinitarian...he had to be, being a Catholic priest...yet read what he wrote regarding John 1:1 in his 'Dictionary of the Bible'...."Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’”—(Brackets are his. Bold type is mine. Published with nihil obstat and imprimatur.) (1965, NY), p. 317.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Tysm everyone for your input...I really appreciate all these perspectives.
For those who don't believe Jesus is God, then what is he? Because his mother Mary was made pregnant by the holy spirit (God) not by man. Also, Jesus was (and will be) able to do things no body else could do.
And once again, in the bible John 1, "The Word (of God) became flesh"..... the word was with God but was God too
I think this is either really simple or so complicated our limited human brains will never be able to fully conceive it.
Maybe if I thought about it like this......
My words are my own but if I took my words and created something with my words like a book or a song (which are very simplified examples btw) and sent it off into the world, it would still be mine but in a sense, separated from me and put into a vessel or made into a different form so that my words can reach others.....idk if this makes sense

 

[Jollybear]

There is so much more to this than you seem to realize. One of satan's trade marks is to get God' servants to disobey their God. e.g. When the Israelites were on the brink of entering the promised land, the devil pulled one last maneuver......he let loose the beautiful Moabite women to tempt the men of Israel. It worked, and many of them fell to immorality and idolatry. 8None of those men made it into the promised land. God's laws were broken and the guilty ones paid for their sin. The devil won but he didn't force them to do anything against their will.

How is the trinity a temptation of the devil? It obscures the true identity of the Living God. It actually puts the son in place of the Father for many who only see Jesus, but never the Father because they believe that they are one and the same being.

God's first Commandment to his people was not to have any other gods in his place. (Exodus 20:3)

If you look at the hebrew in that exodus verse, it refers to having no other ELOHIM before yawahs elohim.

So, in otherwords, jesus is a part of Gods team, so, we good.

The devil wins by again making people break God's law. The son never put himself in God's place.

When Jesus comes on judgment day, he rejects those who claim him as their Lord because he says that they are "workers of lawlessness"....how could that be when they regard themselves as Christians in good standing? They were breaking God's laws. (Matthew 7:21-23) The trinity is only one of them. They said that they had done many things, even powerful works in Jesus' name, but his rejection of them is not negotiable.

Didnt jesus say to the disciples "you call me lord and rightly so"?

Didnt they bow to him as well and he did not rebuke them?

Apart from the fact that there is no such thing as "damnation to hell", Jesus showed us the correct way to worship the Father.....not himself. (Luke 4:5-8)

He said "No one comes to the Father except through me".....if he was God why did people need to come to the Father? Why not just come to Jesus?

If Jesus is the mediator (go-between) for humans and his Father; and all of our prayers are to be said in Jesus' name, so as to be conveyed to God in the right way, why do we not need a mediator between us and Jesus? Never once are we instructed to pray TO Jesus....but THROUGH him.

Stephen at his death looked up and prayed to Jesus, did he not?

Let me give you another example......when Israel had been liberated from Egyptian slavery and Moses ascended the mountain to gain some further instruction from God, they thought he was taking too long, so they asked Aaron to make a god for them (obviously like the ones they had seen in Egypt) so they collected all their gold and it was fashioned into a golden calf. Now, the thing is, they called this idol "Yahweh" and had a festival dedicated to him with lots of singing and dancing. But God brought their activities to Moses' attention and told him to go down and put a stop to it. Not until Moses actually saw what they were doing did he lose his temper and throw down the stone tablets on which God had written the Ten Commandments.

Oh, no, i dont agree they called that idol yahwah. Yes, they called it gods, but, not yahwah. At that moment they wer knowingly rejecting yahwah.

Now did Israel think that a festival to the God who had just liberated them was wrong? They were used to seeing idols worshipped in Egypt, and they called the representation of their God by his name.....and yet none of them made it into the promised land except Aaron. Moses gave them an ultimatum.....all who were on God's side were to come to him. Those who did not think they did anything wrong, perished.

What is the lesson?



I believe judgment day will be based on what God has asked of his human children since day one...."obedience". Strict obedience to his laws and how promptly we followed them out of love for him and respect for his sovereign right to hold us to account if we break his laws.

I believe that we can be fooled by the devil into thinking close enough is good enough.....I don't believe it is.

I think wed literally all parish if God judged us with just strictly his standards with no mercy. We all fall short of the glory of God, yes?

Also the worship on an idol bull is hardly a mistake for the maker of the universe.

 

[Desert Snake]

I've been Christian all my life and have been on an endless journey to find truth when it comes to God our creater. Which lead me to reject the doctrine of the trinity because the idea of God being 3 "persons" in one is just ridiculous and its roots stem from paganism but now I'm questioning the relationship of God the creater and Jesus the messiah. I've always kinda believed that Jesus was both the son of God and God himself and in the bible, Jesus mentions more than once that he and the father are one but that the father is greater than he is so if he isn't God but the son of God then who was he in the beginning because he only became the son of God after Mary was impregnated but in the bible John 1:1-2 it says....
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning......
So is Jesus the manifestation of God's word in the flesh which still makes him God or is he the son of God (a separate being) or is he both at the same time.....Kinda like a clone of God in the form of flesh.....
Ugh! I've never been this confused in my life and its actually troubling my soul

The Sun of God.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

The Sun of God.

Haha Not the SON of God but the SUN of God...... good one and kinda makes sense too cause the Bible John 1:4-9 talks about the light

 

[Desert Snake]

Haha Not the SON of God but the SUN of God...... good one and kinda makes sense too cause the Bible John 1:4-9 talks about the light

I can't take credit for that, however, yes, does seem appropriate.