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When Was The Universe Created?

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
The Bible in and of itself is not evidence. The claim of internal evidence is circular unless it can be confirmed by outside evidence. The Pentateuch has not absolutely no evidence for the source of the text or the history.

I have provided evidence and we can go over that again if you like.



Yes, we have been through this before and then as now you have failed to present external evidence concerning the fundamentalist claim of the origin and historicity of the Pentateuch.

I go by the factual external evidence for the history of the Pentateuch.




Secular history gives the origin of the Hebrew language as an evolved variant of Canaanite, , , and the text of Genesis creation and other parts from older Sumerian, Babylonian, Canaanite and cuneiform Ugarit texts.

From: Hebrew language - Wikipedia

"Hebrew (/ˈhiːbruː/; עִבְרִית‎, Ivrit [ivˈʁit] ( listen) or [ʕivˈɾit] ( listen)) is a Northwest Semitic language native to Israel, the modern version of which is spoken by over 9 million people worldwide.[8] Historically, it is regarded as the language of the Israelites and their ancestors, although the language was not referred to by the name Hebrew in the Tanakh.[note 1] The earliest examples of written Paleo-Hebrewdate from the 10th century BCE.[9] Hebrew belongs to the West Semitic branch of the Afroasiatic language family. Hebrew is the only living Canaanite language left, and the only truly successful example of a revived dead language."



Yes, the earliest Hebrew was a Canaanite-Hebrew script first found about ~800-900 BCE, but absolutely no script that could be identified as written by Hebrews before this.



Papyrus like used in Egypt that he would be familiar with and commonly available. Clay tablets which are commonly used by Sumerians, Canaanites, Ugarits, and Phoenicians, or possible stone Stella, which are common.

Too tired for this.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
An evening and morning is only half a 24 hour period. There's also an afternoon and night.
Now you're saying the text posits periods shorter than a day. That doesn't make sense as the story's written ─ but then, neither does talking of mornings and evenings before there's a sun (day 4). Such is the Bronze Age storyteller's art.
At Genesis 2:4 all six days are called 1 day.
Not in my translation, where 2.4 reads,

These [ie what follows] are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created.​

We then get the second version of the creation myth.
The seventh day had no morning or evening, and that day continues thousands of years later. (Psalms 95:11 / Hebrews 4:2-10)
Psalm 95:11 reads

Therefore I swore in my anger
that they should not enter my rest.​

and Hebrews 4:2-10 reads

for whoever enters God's rest also ceases from his labors as God did from his.
neither of which supports what you claim.


And as I said, the Sabbath wasn't observed forever; instead Christians changed it to Sunday for their own reasons, disregarding the commandment.
 
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Earthling

David Henson
The Bible in and of itself is not evidence. The claim of internal evidence is circular unless it can be confirmed by outside evidence. The Pentateuch has not absolutely no evidence for the source of the text or the history.

I have provided evidence and we can go over that again if you like.



Yes, we have been through this before and then as now you have failed to present external evidence concerning the fundamentalist claim of the origin and historicity of the Pentateuch.

I go by the factual external evidence for the history of the Pentateuch.




Secular history gives the origin of the Hebrew language as an evolved variant of Canaanite, , , and the text of Genesis creation and other parts from older Sumerian, Babylonian, Canaanite and cuneiform Ugarit texts.

From: Hebrew language - Wikipedia

"Hebrew (/ˈhiːbruː/; עִבְרִית‎, Ivrit [ivˈʁit] ( listen) or [ʕivˈɾit] ( listen)) is a Northwest Semitic language native to Israel, the modern version of which is spoken by over 9 million people worldwide.[8] Historically, it is regarded as the language of the Israelites and their ancestors, although the language was not referred to by the name Hebrew in the Tanakh.[note 1] The earliest examples of written Paleo-Hebrewdate from the 10th century BCE.[9] Hebrew belongs to the West Semitic branch of the Afroasiatic language family. Hebrew is the only living Canaanite language left, and the only truly successful example of a revived dead language."



Yes, the earliest Hebrew was a Canaanite-Hebrew script first found about ~800-900 BCE, but absolutely no script that could be identified as written by Hebrews before this.



Papyrus like used in Egypt that he would be familiar with and commonly available. Clay tablets which are commonly used by Sumerians, Canaanites, Ugarits, and Phoenicians, or possible stone Stella, which are common.

You never get what I'm saying, apparently. You never answer my questions. We had this conversation the first week I started posting here. You just keep repeating yourself. Did you get the Alice Cooper reference? The album was recorded in 1969. The original recordings were destroyed but copies were made and available especially after the 1980's. Does that mean the album doesn't exist? I gave you the entire album in the video.

The Bible was written primarily by hand, with ink on papyrus. Old copies were ceremonially buried. I know that there isn't any secular evidence of the Hebrew language prior to the 10th century B.C.E. but what would you expect? How many times was Jerusalem destroyed? How long do you expect the hand written copies to last once buried? What about other languages? How are those cuniforms dated? They aren't. So it's speculation.

Listening to the Alice Cooper album is the best evidence there is of it being recorded, but if you determine that no evidence of it exists before 1985 then there is no significance to that statement because it obviously did. Dismissing the Bible as evidence of the Bible is stupid. The alternative isn't circular is logical.

But then you throw higher criticism and the documentary theory in there and there is not one shred of evidence of your conjecture. And you won't even take into account what the Bible says. It's like discovering a cave painting that's dated but you don't believe it's possible because it mentions the supernatural and foretells events that came true, because it was copied from other caves for years though those caves aren't known.

The so called skeptical inability to see these types of things blows me away.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You never get what I'm saying, apparently. You never answer my questions. We had this conversation the first week I started posting here. You just keep repeating yourself. Did you get the Alice Cooper reference? The album was recorded in 1969. The original recordings were destroyed but copies were made and available especially after the 1980's. Does that mean the album doesn't exist? I gave you the entire album in the video.

I have always answered your questions, but you simply refused to acknowledge the external evidence that actually best documents the history of the text. We can go over it again if it is a problem.

The Bible was written primarily by hand, with ink on papyrus. Old copies were ceremonially buried. I know that there isn't any secular evidence of the Hebrew language prior to the 10th century B.C.E. but what would you expect? How many times was Jerusalem destroyed? How long do you expect the hand written copies to last once buried? What about other languages? How are those cuniforms dated? They aren't. So it's speculation.

What you describe is speculation. Other civilizations and cites were repeatedly destroy, and we still have their texts in various forms, even if they are only partial.

But then you throw higher criticism and the documentary theory in there and there is not one shred of evidence of your conjecture. And you won't even take into account what the Bible says. It's like discovering a cave painting that's dated but you don't believe it's possible because it mentions the supernatural and foretells events that came true, because it was copied from other caves for years though those caves aren't known.

Higher criticism is based on considerable external and internal evidence, which you choose to ignore.

The Pentateuch is not dated by exterior evidence older than the Dead Sea Scrolls, and it is incomplete.

]Arguing from ignorance or unknowns' is a fallacy'
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
The point of the OP is that the Bible gives no indication as to the age of the earth or universe. One can't make some determination, for example, of 6,000 years based upon the Bible, so whatever science may estimate at any given time isn't conflicting with the Bible.

Your point on without form and void I don't get. The term applies to there being no land mass. Once the waters are separated and the canopy that surrounded the earth until the flood of Noah's day is lifted then there is form.

There's no where in the Bible that claims the earth as being 6000 years old.

But there is evidence in the Bible that the earth as being millions to billions of years old.

The earth being covered with water, and then God said ( let the dry land appear)

So there was land, only covered over by water.
But however, there is no where in the 6 day creation of Genesis that makes any mentioned anything about the atmosphere/air as being created.

So that means the earth was already here and the atmosphere/air around the earth.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
There's no where in the Bible that claims the earth as being 6000 years old.

But there is evidence in the Bible that the earth as being millions to billions of years old.

The earth being covered with water, and then God said ( let the dry land appear)

So there was land, only covered over by water.
But however, there is no where in the 6 day creation of Genesis that makes any mentioned anything about the atmosphere/air as being created.

So that means the earth was already here and the atmosphere/air around the earth.

Personally, I think the young Earth claims are made by the ignorant. And, I believe that the Bible and actual history blend together very well. The story of the Nephilim in Genesis explains so much.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Personally, I think the young Earth claims are made by the ignorant. And, I believe that the Bible and actual history blend together very well. The story of the Nephilim in Genesis explains so much.

What does the story of Nephilim explain?

The Bible does not explain millions of years of evolution and and the reality of the natural history of humanity.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
What? Who are you talking to?

Earthling.

If you ignored a user their post will not show in quotes even if made by another user. Like my quote of your post above. If someone has you on ignore they can not see it.

At times the forum has an ignored user tag but other times it does not.
 
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74x12

Well-Known Member
The Bible doesn't say. At Genesis 1:1 the heavens and earth were complete, and after an apparent pause for an indeterminate period of time the 6 creative "days" or epochs, each also taking an indeterminate period of time were complete. The seventh day, one of rest, which began after the end of the sixth day, continues on to this day thousands of years later. (Genesis 2:1-3 / Hebrews 4:3-11)
The 6 days were not solar days but by the Light of God in Genesis 1:3. Each day shows the 6 ages of the world in Jesus Christ who is the Light. For in each age His Light will shine greater and greater unto the light of a perfect day. The world is made in 6 days in His Light and God rests on the 7th day. The 7th day is yet to come for us and is when God rests in the new Jerusalem which is the apple of His eye.

This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.​

The completion of the work. The rough coal is removed and the gem is polished to perfection.

And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
What we see now is not the finished work of God. What we see now is rough and unpolished. However the day is when God create Jerusalem a rejoicing and her people a joy. Suffice to say; creation is on going and is not finished yet. God will rest and we can join Him there in the rest. The holy Spirit is being given today and is the earnest of our inheritance; but who will hear?

To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.​
 
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