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Karma - Is it a Universal or Dharmic principle?

Karma - Is it a Universal or Dharmic principle?


  • Total voters
    23

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
Because it was mentioned why the good suffer needlessly. And my view is that they are receiving good karma for being patient and long suffering.

Why are innocent people oppressed? Have they done something wrong that karma is repaying them for? Not in my view. There is divine wisdom in it. The innocent people who suffer I believe are more than compensated for.

My understanding of karma is payment for good or bad done since being born in this world.
The idea that people are "rewarded" for their suffering with "good karma" is wrong.
What happens when people suffer for reasons they have not immediately caused themselves is that their burden or load of karma is becoming lighter (if they don't acquire new karma by their new actions) as the karma is being expressed or undergone by the mind.

In fact, the karmic load does not only become lighter by suffering or extra suffering through performing service to others or undergoing uninvited suffering, but also by enjoying the pleasant rewards of previous actions.
Because so-called "good karma" only consists of golden chains, i.e. they keep you bound just as well as the iron chains of so-called "nasty karma".

So if you spend a life time of good actions and you have not offered all of those actions to God (or not accepted them as your own), your karmic load has increased tremendously and you need to undergo a long time of reaping the so-called "rewards" of the karma. This may seem as a nice thing but spiritually speaking it is as bad as a life time of suffering painful events.
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
The idea that people are "rewarded" for their suffering with "good karma" is wrong.
What happens when people suffer for reasons they have not immediately caused themselves is that their burden or load of karma is becoming lighter (if they don't acquire new karma by their new actions) as the karma is being expressed or undergone by the mind.

In fact, the karmic load does not only become lighter by suffering or extra suffering through performing service to others or undergoing uninvited suffering, but also by enjoying the pleasant rewards of previous actions.
Because so-called "good karma" only consists of golden chains, i.e. they keep you bound just as well as the iron chains of so-called "nasty karma".

So if you spend a life time of good actions and you have not offered all of those actions to God (or not accepted them as your own), your karmic load has increased tremendously and you need to undergo a long time of reaping the so-called "rewards" of the karma. This may seem as a nice thing but spiritually speaking it is as bad as a life time of suffering painful events.

Thanks for your reply. Just my opinion but I am not an expert so it’s just my vision of how karma operates according to our actions or inactions. Only my personal view so please question it. I’m here to learn.

My understanding is that karma is associated with our conscious actions and deliberate inactions we reap the fruit of them in terms of development of our soul, spirit or inner being.

Whether one belongs to a royal family or is homeless our conscious choices as to how we act, react or inact determines our karma in my view.

So a king may be surrounded by wealth, power and every luxury and fame but the condition of his soul is his true reality and if he is just then his soul becomes enlightened but if he is a tyrant his spirit becomes ill.

The same with the homeless person. If he acts nobly he will advance spiritually but if he becomes a thief instead of trying to earn an honest living then he pollutes his own soul and like the king’s soul becomes ill or enlightened.

Each one of us determines our own fate no one else. We make choices and decisions and there is karma or consequence attached to each action or non action.

So for instance there are sins of omission and commission. It’s not only things we do wrong or right but things that we dont do that have significant consequences on our souls.

Allowing wars, poverty, oppression and crime to continue i feel strongly is our fault collectively. I believe we as human beings have a responsiblity to eliminate poverty and such. While these things exists humanity i believe is to blame because if we really care there are options and resources available to wholly eliminate poverty but have thus far choosen not to do do because war and arms sales are profitable.

Then where are the people uniting against war and violence war and military spending? Where is the movement for world peace? So we just enjoy our lives while others suffer?

We can all come together and people can end wars and poverty if we really want to. Why then out of compassion for the suffering don’t we unite?

The wrong and injustice in the world is allowed to continue simply because good people don’t speak up and unite. We have allowed our world to do this to itself. We can unite and turn around this ship, why don’t we? The question is not whether can do it but whether we really care about humanity.

So karma decrees that peace and unity and happiness evades us as long as we don’t care and I believe we don’t
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I don't understand why you feel the need to defend the idea of castes. There is enough of a lack of social mobility outside of Hinduism to promote even less of it. People do generally fall into one out of four categories as to their mentality but this should never be fixed for communities into which children are born, it should be a free choice as much as possible. So castes are a curse in society just like slavery is. In the Middle Ages even outside of Hinduism your profession was largely fixed by the family you were born is, but that is very much less so in modern societies and that is a good thing. People should follow their talents and inclinations in a natural way and not be forced by society in a certain direction or banned from whole sections of society on grounds of the family they were born in.

My 'defense' is in regard to the reality of caste today, which is really far far different from how it's portrayed by the western press. I've been to India, and never noticed caste at all. Movement between castes these days is incredibly widespread, just as job shift, rural to urban shift, and all the other shifting. Caste based discrimination is illegal.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Karma can mean different things to different people. A common understanding is the law of cause and effect, of action and reaction. In that sense it is a universal law that not only concerns human behaviour and morality but the phenomonal world too....

So what is karma and to what extent can its principles be universally applied or kept within the traditions of Dharmic religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism?

Comments and Questions?


I have not read the whole thread. In my opinion, the principle of karma is universal. Our desires, choices and mental and physical actions determine the outcome. The fact that you wrote the OP has led to certain results. Whether the results are beneficial or not you can only tell. To start with, why you made the OP must have had a reason. Katha Upanshad has this to say regarding the choices that we make:

”There are two paths—one is the ‘beneficial’ and the other is the ‘pleasant’. These two lead humans to very different ends. The pleasant is enjoyable in the beginning, but it ends in pain. The ignorant are snared to the pleasant and perish. But the wise are not deceived by its attractions, choose the beneficial, and finally attain happiness.”
This, in general, is the teaching of all religions. So, I aver that the principle of karma is universal but its understanding and its applications vary across religions. The understanding is most developed in Hinduism and Buddhism, the two religions that teach continuity of the living soul/mind stream, until liberation (moksha or nirvana).
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Thank you. Your understanding of karma is not the Hindu understanding of karma. It's simply not a reward/punishment system. So you've (or the leaders of your faith before you) changed the definition of karma to fit into your paradigm. Perth is not a city in Canada. If I constantly claimed it was, that would be analogous to what you're doing.

Although we understand things differently, I have great admiration for so many teachings of Hinduism like ahimsa and tolerance. It is a tribute to Hinduism that all religions can practise their Faith in India and even erect a Lotus Temple.

The world has so much it can learn from Hinduism especially those nations which are intolerant towards different religions.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Most people? Non-dharmics, perhaps. Anyone who doesn't understand karma. I'm a Hindu, and I most definitely do not see it as punishment. The punishment/reward model is almost exclusively an Abrahamic concept. In Hinduism, we are all of the same essence, so if you hurt someone, you hurt yourself. In Newton's third law, is the equal and opposite force a punishment?

This is just further proof of how little Baha'i understand karma, and by extension, other dharmic concepts.
So, the purpose of reincarnation is to come back to this world to refine the soul everytime?
When people return again and again, everytime their soul gets better, or it might be that, sometimes the soul gets better, and sometimes gets worst?
If the idea of reincarnation is true, I don't know why I and almost all other people do not remember it. Very few people claim they remember it. Why is that?
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
So, the purpose of reincarnation is to come back to this world to refine the soul everytime?
When people return again and again, everytime their soul gets better, or it might be that, sometimes the soul gets better, and sometimes gets worst?
The Hindu belief is that generally it gets better, unless there is major unrighteousness (like in a brutal dictator) in which case it might take many lifetimes of suffering to get back to where you were. So it could be up and down, but generally improving. Some lessons are hard to learn. But generally the intent is to at least improve a little bit. We are all progressing towards moksha, and it is inevitable for all.

So yes, you have it basically right. Thanks for that.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
The Hindu belief is that generally it gets better, unless there is major unrighteousness (like in a brutal dictator) in which case it might take many lifetimes of suffering to get back to where you were. So it could be up and down, but generally improving. Some lessons are hard to learn. But generally the intent is to at least improve a little bit. We are all progressing towards moksha, and it is inevitable for all.

So yes, you have it basically right. Thanks for that.
So then, does Karma determine in what form the person return to this world depending on how he did in the past life? So, for example, if a person did crimes, in the next life he would return in a poor family to suffer more? And if a person acted humanly in previous life, he returns in a comfortable family, so, there would be less suffering this time?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
So then, does Karma determine in what form the person return to this world depending on how he did in the past life? So, for example, if a person did crimes, in the next life he would return in a poor family to suffer more? And if a person acted humanly in previous life, he returns in a comfortable family, so, there would be less suffering this time?
My understanding is that it isn't quite that simple, but generally, yes. For example, as I explained earlier in the thread, you have sanchita karma. (The sum total of all karmas form all lives that are awaiting to remanifest) So in your example, it wouldn't be 'in the next life' but 'in some future life'. Karma doesn't happen just in the next life, but it will manifest in some future life.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
My understanding is that it isn't quite that simple, but generally, yes. For example, as I explained earlier in the thread, you have sanchita karma. (The sum total of all karmas form all lives that are awaiting to remanifest) So in your example, it wouldn't be 'in the next life' but 'in some future life'. Karma doesn't happen just in the next life, but it will manifest in some future life.
So, you believe that God created such a system which has been working naturally and automatically, without Him interfering with it, as it works by itself?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
So, you believe that God created such a system which has been working naturally and automatically, without Him interfering with it, as it works by itself?

Basically, yes, although 'creation' isn't really an accurate term. The physical laws and the spiritual laws are also part of God. The Hindu view is that God isn't separate from His creation, but rather it's an extension. But the idea that it works well by itself, just like gravity, is accurate. We consider the law of karma as infallible, just like gravity. You can't escape the effects of gravity.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
The suffering creature is a welcome chance to serve the Lord in His created aspect.

Hindus in general don't believe God wants us to suffer for any reason, especially not for him.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Sometimes bad things come our way through no fault of our own. We may live in a dictatorship who decides to persecute and murder anyone who is a threat to him. Other times we may be an innocent victim of crime. I can't see it helpful to blame ourselves for things we are not responsible for on account of past lives.

It may not be through no fault of our own. There are those who believe (I am one of them) that a sufficiently spiritually-advanced soul can choose its next birth or births. It may choose to "suffer" for its own purposes... ameliorating past bad karma, gaining good karma, helping someone else's karma. Some of us believe we know each other throughout many lifetimes. We just don't know. I personally believe that many animals and even children who are abused, abandoned, neglected, choose this birth for the good of their rescuers or benefactors. It's a pretty selfless act that should gain oodles (I should use that word more often :D) of good karma. But who knows? :shrug:
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
It may not be through no fault of our own. There are those who believe (I am one of them) that a sufficiently spiritually-advanced soul can choose its next birth or births. It may choose to "suffer" for its own purposes... ameliorating past bad karma, gaining good karma, helping someone else's karma. Some of us believe we know each other throughout many lifetimes. We just don't know. I personally believe that many animals and even children who are abused, abandoned, neglected, choose this birth for the good of their rescuers or benefactors. It's a pretty selfless act that should gain oodles (I should use that word more often :D) of good karma. But who knows? :shrug:
Some folks take on prayaschitta penance to atone in this lifetime. Not understood outside of our paradigm. But those ho have done it will attest to it working.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I believe it is more that you don't understand karma.
I understand the various Karma concepts just fine and I do not accept karma as a being valid or actual. I will go so far as saying that action has consequences, beyond that, I'm not inclined to hyperventilate about whether something was good or bad karma. In the larger picture of reality, karma is irrelevant.
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
So, you believe that God created such a system which has been working naturally and automatically, without Him interfering with it, as it works by itself?
He created the universe as a system with fixed laws in which everything is interconnected. If His will would try to change just a part of that system in a frivolous isolated way, the whole thing would collapse.
Karma is the psycho-spiritual law that governs living entities leading to the liberation of their unit consciousness from bondage back to its original unity.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
It may not be through no fault of our own. There are those who believe (I am one of them) that a sufficiently spiritually-advanced soul can choose its next birth or births. It may choose to "suffer" for its own purposes... ameliorating past bad karma, gaining good karma, helping someone else's karma. Some of us believe we know each other throughout many lifetimes. We just don't know. I personally believe that many animals and even children who are abused, abandoned, neglected, choose this birth for the good of their rescuers or benefactors. It's a pretty selfless act that should gain oodles (I should use that word more often :D) of good karma. But who knows? :shrug:

Thank you @Jainarayan ,
That makes sense. I'm better appreciating how inextricably interwoven concepts of karma and reincarnation can be for many Hindus. It is an interesting idea that a soul gets to choose his next birth rather than a more enlightened being making that decision. I'm presuming there must be limited options for some souls based on accumulated karma. could a sociopath in this life wouldn't cheat the whole process and try to selfishly advance in the next life to escape the consequences of bad karma?
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm presuming there must be limited options for some souls based on accumulated karma. A sociopath in this life wouldn't get to cheat the whole process and try to selfishly advance in the next life to escape the consequences of bad karma.

Very likely. The sociopath example is interesting, because what we consider sociopath is tied to the bodily form. The soul might choose that form for its own purposes. But this is conjecture on my part, picked up from gleanings here and there. I don't know if there are any "official" writings on it.
 
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