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Karma - Is it a Universal or Dharmic principle?

Karma - Is it a Universal or Dharmic principle?


  • Total voters
    23

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Karma can mean different things to different people. A common understanding is the law of cause and effect, of action and reaction. In that sense it is a universal law that not only concerns human behaviour and morality but the phenomonal world too.

Karma in Sanskrit means action, work or deed. Good intent and good deeds contribute to good karma and future happiness, while bad intent and bad deeds contribute to bad karma and future suffering.

The philosophy of karma is closely associated with the idea of rebirth in many schools of Indian religions. In these schools, karma in the present affects one's future in the current life, as well as the nature and quality of future lives.

However the same principle could be applied to Abrahamic Faiths. For example in Christianity, Christ's Teaching in regards judgment in the next world is in accordance with one's charity (Matthew 25:31-46). Christianity also teaches morals such as one reaps what one sows (Galatians 6:7) and he who lives by the sword dies by the sword (Matthew 26:52).

However many scholars consider the concept of Last Judgment in Christianity as different from karma in Dharmic Faiths. The latter is as an ongoing process that occurs every day in one's life, while the last judgment, is a one-time review at the end of life.

Karma - Wikipedia

So what is karma and to what extent can its principles be universally applied or kept within the traditions of Dharmic religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism?

Comments and Questions?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I like the idea of karma, but I'm skeptical that there is such a thing. At least, the popular understanding of it -- which I take to be the notion there are moral laws of cause and effect just as there are physical laws of cause and effect -- seems a bit simplistic to me.

To be sure, there are things that tend to have either positive or negative consequences. For instance, if you allow yourself to be jealous of the attention other people pay your partner or spouse, then there seems to be set of likely consequences to that sort of thing, and you are likely to experience one or more of those consequences. But I just don't see that everything in life which could be considered a moral choice has karmic consequences.

Perhaps there's a more sophisticated notion of karma that would make more sense to me, but I currently don't know of one.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Comments and Questions?
Here is a thread by me on Karma & Works being Literally the Same Word...

Plus the more been thinking on it, Yeshua's teachings were closer to Dharmic than Rabbinic Judaism.

Matthew 5:16 Even so, let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Good Karma like enlightenment causes people to become radiant, which is a Dharmic understanding as Yeshua was an Avatar.

Luke 16:8-9 “His lord commended the dishonest manager because he had done wisely, for the children of this world are, in their own generation, wiser than the children of the light. (9) I tell you, make for yourselves friends by means of unrighteous mammon, so that when you fail, they may receive you into the eternal tents.

Using the comparison of the Children of Light (Bodhisattva), and this realm being the Maya or a realm of desires (Mammon = "trusting in the desires"), is from a much more advanced angelic way of thinking, which is more like the Dharma.

In my opinion.
:innocent:
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I like the idea of karma, but I'm skeptical that there is such a thing. At least, the popular understanding of it -- which I take to be the notion there are moral laws of cause and effect just as there are physical laws of cause and effect -- seems a bit simplistic to me.

To be sure, there are things that tend to have either positive or negative consequences. For instance, if you allow yourself to be jealous of the attention other people pay your partner or spouse, then there seems to be set of likely consequences to that sort of thing, and you are likely to experience one or more of those consequences. But I just don't see that everything in life which could be considered a moral choice has karmic consequences.

Perhaps there's a more sophisticated notion of karma that would make more sense to me, but I currently don't know of one.

Processes of action and reaction are certainly much more complex, random and unpredictable in the social realm. An obvious problem is making sense of why good people suffer while a hypocritcal narcisist may prosper. In many places in the world immoral people achieve success through abiding by an entirely different set of principles than those who would endeavour to live a moral life.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Here is a thread by me on Karma & Works being Literally the Same Word...

Plus the more been thinking on it, Yeshua's teachings were closer to Dharmic than Rabbinic Judaism.

Matthew 5:16 Even so, let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Good Karma like enlightenment causes people to become radiant, which is a Dharmic understanding as Yeshua was an Avatar.

Luke 16:8-9 “His lord commended the dishonest manager because he had done wisely, for the children of this world are, in their own generation, wiser than the children of the light. (9) I tell you, make for yourselves friends by means of unrighteous mammon, so that when you fail, they may receive you into the eternal tents.

Using the comparison of the Children of Light (Bodhisattva), and this realm being the Maya or a realm of desires (Mammon = "trusting in the desires"), is from a much more advanced angelic way of thinking, which is more like the Dharma.

In my opinion.
:innocent:

I like your weaving together of Abrahamic and Dharmic concepts.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I like the idea of karma, but I'm skeptical that there is such a thing. At least, the popular understanding of it -- which I take to be the notion there are moral laws of cause and effect just as there are physical laws of cause and effect -- seems a bit simplistic to me.

I have been considering that if we see a negative aspect in any person, then it is still a potential in our own selves. I have found if we act on that negativity, then it in turn will visit us so we can also experience it and address it in our own selves. It may be soon or it may be years, but I see it does unfold.

As my own life has unfolded in this way and I have found this happens in many aspects of life, I am able to offer these thoughts with confidence.

Regards Tony
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I like the idea of karma, but I'm skeptical that there is such a thing. At least, the popular understanding of it -- which I take to be the notion there are moral laws of cause and effect just as there are physical laws of cause and effect -- seems a bit simplistic to me.

To be sure, there are things that tend to have either positive or negative consequences. For instance, if you allow yourself to be jealous of the attention other people pay your partner or spouse, then there seems to be set of likely consequences to that sort of thing, and you are likely to experience one or more of those consequences. But I just don't see that everything in life which could be considered a moral choice has karmic consequences.

Perhaps there's a more sophisticated notion of karma that would make more sense to me, but I currently don't know of one.
There aren't any physical law of cause and effect either.....its a convenient macro-scale approximation of the more subtle probabilistic mechanics of the Quantum Realm.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
There aren't any physical law of cause and effect either.....its a convenient macro-scale approximation of the more subtle probabilistic mechanics of the Quantum Realm.

That is true of course. Einsteins theory of relativity up-ended the mechanistic view Newton had of the world that so elegantly described the universe as running like clockwork. Notwithstanding, if an apple falls from a tree we can reasonably predict its motion as it accelerates before crashing to the ground. The trajectory of the man with antisocial personality disorder who lies, cheats and steals for his own personal gain can be predicted somewhat.

So we can make it simple or complicated, but the universe is no longer the mystery it once was.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
That is true of course. Einsteins theory of relativity upended the mechanistic view Newton had of the world that so elegantly described the universe as running like clockworld. Notwithstanding, if an apple falls from a tree we can reasonably predict its motion as it accelerates before crashing to the ground. The trajectory of the man with antisocial personality disorder who lies, cheats and steals for his own personal gain can be predicted somewhat.

So we can make it simple or complicated, but the universe is no longer the mystery it once was.
In the Bible, it is God who enforces justice (His version of it at least), and there is nothing in the world itself that does so. In the dharmic worldview, Karma is an automatic consequece of the actions performed by a being because of the changes (for good or bad) it wreakes on the properties of the being itself. Here, God is not decreeing that each being receives this consequence or that....its kind of built in.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
In the Bible, it is God who enforces justice (His version of it at least), and there is nothing in the world itself that does so. In the dharmic worldview, Karma is an automatic consequece of the actions performed by a being because of the changes (for good or bad) it wreakes on the properties of the being itself. Here, God is not decreeing that each being receives this consequence or that....its kind of built in.

There are always differing perspectives of course and you are right.

Consider the story of Noah and the world wide flood that Moses allegedly taught. This is best seen as an allegorical story, not literal history. Noah admonishes the people to be mindful of certain laws and principles. Most people fail to heed the wise words and in difficult times are eventually overwhelmed in life by deluge of their own making.

Krishna taught in the material world everything is temporary. Both good and bad things end. In the Bhagavad-gita (5.22) it is stated:
The pleasures which are due to contact with the material senses are sources of misery. O son of Kunti such pleasures have a beginning and an end, and so the wise man does not delight in them.

The story of the discourse betwen Arjuna and Krishna is allegorical.

Christ similarly taught,

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Matthew 7:24-27

Whether Moses, Krishna or Christ allegorical stories are told to convey spiritual truths as to the inner reality of man. Over the three thousand year history from Krishna to Christ in very different cultures, the language, mode of expression and emphasis is different. After another two thousand years it is difficult to know to what extent their followers have diverged from the original teachings. However the principle of cause and effect or karma appears central to all three religions IMHO.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Near as I can think of karma in a way that makes it plausible for me is to think of it -- not in terms of morality -- but in terms of how a person might deal with their psychological self or ego -- that is, the self that they might describe if asked "Who are you?"

So I myself would not look for karma to operate on the level of morality, but on the level of the skillfulness one brings to dealing with his or her psychological self.
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
Suppose you had a harmful thought or did a harmful action without any witnesses and without having offered it to God.
Would there always be a backlash to your negative action or thought or is this idea of the inevitability of experiencing the karmic effect just a religious fantasy?

Suppose you had a benevolent thought or did a benevolent action and no-one noticed or rewarded that, and you hadn't offered it to God. Would there always be a reward in the form of something good or pleasant happening to you in the future or is this just wishful religious fantasy?

You can never prove that this is the case because you have no access to all the deeds or thoughts of a person in his/her present life let alone previous existences and you also don't know where the reactions could have originated.
So you can never prove that it is universally true.

Only those Personalities who can intuitively see a person's entire past and future can be totally sure that karma is a fact and not a religious invention.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Karma can mean different things to different people. A common understanding is the law of cause and effect, of action and reaction. In that sense it is a universal law that not only concerns human behaviour and morality but the phenomonal world too.

Karma in Sanskrit means action, work or deed. Good intent and good deeds contribute to good karma and future happiness, while bad intent and bad deeds contribute to bad karma and future suffering.

The philosophy of karma is closely associated with the idea of rebirth in many schools of Indian religions. In these schools, karma in the present affects one's future in the current life, as well as the nature and quality of future lives.

However the same principle could be applied to Abrahamic Faiths. For example in Christianity, Christ's Teaching in regards judgment in the next world is in accordance with one's charity (Matthew 25:31-46). Christianity also teaches morals such as one reaps what one sows (Galatians 6:7) and he who lives by the sword dies by the sword (Matthew 26:52).

However many scholars consider the concept of Last Judgment in Christianity as different from karma in Dharmic Faiths. The latter is as an ongoing process that occurs every day in one's life, while the last judgment, is a one-time review at the end of life.

Karma - Wikipedia

So what is karma and to what extent can its principles be universally applied or kept within the traditions of Dharmic religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism?

Comments and Questions?

I see karma as universal because everything changes. That's the laws of life. Within those laws I imagine it like a ball rolling down hill without end. Whatever that ball picks up becomes part of the action of that rolling. When the earth turns, we are the action in relationship with its turning. So, our productive actions as being one with that turn helps the earth continue to move. When we limit or restrict ourselves from productive actions towards that turn, we experience friction. It's like trying to push that same ball uphill on a downhill slope. Karma or cause and affect is universal.

As for it being Dharmic, no. Its nature isnt Dharmic. Just as edit life isnt Dharmic. Nor is the experience of art (god, having children, so have you).

What is Dharmic about it, if one likes, is how each of us interprets the earth turning and how our actions can move with it or against it. I think the Dharmic thing is how to be one in full understanding of that turning. When we no longer see ourselves apart from that turn as in abstract view (I am turning with the earth; we are one) or literal (I take care of the earth we are one). We live a life as the earth. Everything that experiences karma.

I chose universal because the laws of nature arnt owned by a religion. If you asked whether the practice of worshiping Vishnu brings one as one in karma or turning, I'd say that is a Dharmic concept.

One way to understand turning is through Dharma practice but karma is by no means a Dharmic thing. Just . Life.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I like the idea of karma, but I'm skeptical that there is such a thing. At least, the popular understanding of it -- which I take to be the notion there are moral laws of cause and effect just as there are physical laws of cause and effect -- seems a bit simplistic to me.

To be sure, there are things that tend to have either positive or negative consequences. For instance, if you allow yourself to be jealous of the attention other people pay your partner or spouse, then there seems to be set of likely consequences to that sort of thing, and you are likely to experience one or more of those consequences. But I just don't see that everything in life which could be considered a moral choice has karmic consequences.

Perhaps there's a more sophisticated notion of karma that would make more sense to me, but I currently don't know of one.

I agree that it's not about morality. It just is, and morality is a later addition, from duality thinking. Karma is neither good or bad, it's just karma. Effects come back, and it's similar to Newton's third law of motion, or gravity, but applied in a spiritual sense. In gravity, some people may see flying as 'good' an falling from a tree as 'bad', but when you look at it from more aloof or detached POV, it's all from gravity. But you're right, the popular notion has good and bad attached.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
I'd say there are too many types of karma that people envision to say. Some of them fit purely one religion, others are universal (though contested by those who disagree). One definition of karma I heard is that you smoke (actively or get passive) and get lung cancer then your karma (actions and your birth conditions/genes) added up to that. I don't personally think in terms of karma, but if you want a reasonably modern take that ones pretty universal...
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Karma can mean different things to different people. A common understanding is the law of cause and effect, of action and reaction. In that sense it is a universal law that not only concerns human behaviour and morality but the phenomonal world too.

Karma in Sanskrit means action, work or deed. Good intent and good deeds contribute to good karma and future happiness, while bad intent and bad deeds contribute to bad karma and future suffering.

The philosophy of karma is closely associated with the idea of rebirth in many schools of Indian religions. In these schools, karma in the present affects one's future in the current life, as well as the nature and quality of future lives.

However the same principle could be applied to Abrahamic Faiths. For example in Christianity, Christ's Teaching in regards judgment in the next world is in accordance with one's charity (Matthew 25:31-46). Christianity also teaches morals such as one reaps what one sows (Galatians 6:7) and he who lives by the sword dies by the sword (Matthew 26:52).

However many scholars consider the concept of Last Judgment in Christianity as different from karma in Dharmic Faiths. The latter is as an ongoing process that occurs every day in one's life, while the last judgment, is a one-time review at the end of life.

Karma - Wikipedia

So what is karma and to what extent can its principles be universally applied or kept within the traditions of Dharmic religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism?

Comments and Questions?
It's cause and effect , action and reaction.

It's certainly not some screwy cosmic scorecard that tallies whenever you've been naughty or nice that requires you to pay it off or bask in its reward. Lol.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
If karma exists I'd say it's universal. We know gravity exists, and is universal. Some things apply universally. One thing I believe karma is not... "paybacks are a [you know what goes here]" or "karma will get him/her". I think that's way too simplistic and a western appropriation or adopting of the concept.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
So what is karma and to what extent can its principles be universally applied or kept within the traditions of Dharmic religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism?

Karma is often misunderstood and misrepresented.

Far from being some mystical force that pursues justice, it is actually a description of the healthy ways.

As noted, the word "karma" in and of itself roughly means "action". That in itself hints of the common misunderstanding.

Of course, no sane person would deny that actions have both practical and religious significance. If for no other reason, because if they do not then there is probably not much of a reason to consider our own actions.

Apparently there has been a lot of somewhat hurried analysis of Dharmic teachings and jumping to unfortunately mistaken conclusions.

It should surprise no one that they tend to teach people to nurture good habits, among other reasons because those encourage good consequences. It is perhaps a bit more explict a teaching in Buddhism, but of course it can be found in most religions as well, not exclusively the Dharmic ones. Frankly, it is such a simple, common sense principle that it is probably taught often outside what is commonly considered religious environments.

What is somewhat less obvious, worth of considerable amounts of elaboration and contemplation, and potentially a more controversial subject matter is what exactly counts as good actions or good habits. Even what counts as good consequences is perhaps considerably more controversial than one would expect.

Therefore, it seems to me that appealling to Karma (or more accurately, to considerations about actions and consequences) unfortunately says very little and means very little in and of itself. The real substance is in the understanding and expression of what would be good karma (literally, "good (enough) action"). Which is about as fair a subject matter as they come, but still, invoking that descriptor is hardly very clarifying in and of itself.

I believe that some degree of mistaking the actual teachings for the words used has been happening. The divergence between some Dharmic perspectives and that of their observers (sometimes Westerners, but certainly not always) probably created considerable aditional confusion and misrepresentation.

For instance, Kardecist Spiritism in Brazil has largely appropriated the word Karma, which is spelled "carma" in Portuguese. But the spiritist conception of it is very much at odds with Buddhist teachings, although many Kardecists and even some Buddhists are quite unaware of that. Kardecist "carma" is a very supernatural and very personal force that actively pushes people towards the life lessons that they supposedly need or deserve along their various reincarnations. Every single element of that description is very much at odds with my understanding of Karma.

Karma is ultimately just a word, just a concept. Useful enough, but by no means a magic bullet of any sort, and it has definitely (and very often) be used in ways that do not quite suit its actual meaning and end up causing a lot of misunderstanding and confusion.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
There are three components to karma, and often two of these are overlooked.

The first is sanchita karma. It is the totality of karma resident within the individual soul, a look at that soul over a hundred lifetimes or more. It got there over millennia, the actions of many lifetimes, and has built up over that time. That entire package can either be growing or shrinking.

The second component is parabdha, and it's the portion of sanchita meant to be overcome in this particular lifetime. It's what the soul can handle this time, depending on its maturity, or level of being. For some, it can be a ton, for others, it's minimal.

The third component is called kriyamana, and it is the karma we set in motion, today's actions, and those will return maybe in this lifetime, maybe not. It can be added to the storehouse of sanchita, to be worked out in some future lifetime.

The closer the soul gets to moksha, the more it can work out, and the smaller the blob of sanchita becomes, and it can be accelerated, helped along by penance, extreme good works, even the assistance of a Guru.

Many people only think of parabdha karma, and this is evident in the words 'my karma, where 'my' refers to the ego/identity of this one particular lifetime. But the mystic Hindu looks at the bigger picture, keeping the entire cycle of the soul in mind, not only this single lifetime.

And this is why the western faith philosophy, belief in a single lifetime, just doesn't work with the concept of karma. Karma and reincarnation are just intricately intertwined. Yes, there might be some other concept that people call karma, and say it's the same thing, but it really isn't.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Karma can mean different things to different people. A common understanding is the law of cause and effect, of action and reaction. In that sense it is a universal law that not only concerns human behaviour and morality but the phenomonal world too.

Karma in Sanskrit means action, work or deed. Good intent and good deeds contribute to good karma and future happiness, while bad intent and bad deeds contribute to bad karma and future suffering.

The philosophy of karma is closely associated with the idea of rebirth in many schools of Indian religions. In these schools, karma in the present affects one's future in the current life, as well as the nature and quality of future lives.

However the same principle could be applied to Abrahamic Faiths. For example in Christianity, Christ's Teaching in regards judgment in the next world is in accordance with one's charity (Matthew 25:31-46). Christianity also teaches morals such as one reaps what one sows (Galatians 6:7) and he who lives by the sword dies by the sword (Matthew 26:52).

However many scholars consider the concept of Last Judgment in Christianity as different from karma in Dharmic Faiths. The latter is as an ongoing process that occurs every day in one's life, while the last judgment, is a one-time review at the end of life.

Karma - Wikipedia

So what is karma and to what extent can its principles be universally applied or kept within the traditions of Dharmic religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism?

Comments and Questions?
I would say, I do not really believe in Karma.
If I inderstand it correctly, Karma basically says, there will be a consequence for our actions in this world. If we do unfair to others, we will see a punishment in this world in the form of worldly things. I do not believe this is always true. There is consequence always, but mostly in the form of spiritual punishment or rewards.
There were cruel kings or rulers who killed a million, but at the end, at most, they were killed only once. So, how can it be said, the punishment they received was equal to the sufferings they caused for others.
 
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