Explain to me why god is real using facts

[GoodbyeDave]

Basically, I am an atheist right, so I would like for you to explain to me why your god is real and use facts not opinions, please.

The problem with many arguments in or out of religion is often not interpreting the facts, but deciding what the facts are.

So, let's take one of my gods, Asklepios. When I first put a statue of of him on my altar and asked him to accept it, he told me to repaint it. Once, when I awoke in the night in severe pain and prayed for relief, the pain just vanished. In other words, I believe in Asklepios because I've encountered him. I suspect that you would reply by asking how you can know the truth of this, since you haven't had such experiences. But when did you last experience a down quark? I suspect you believe in them, but you had to take the word of some-one else. So why not take my word about a god? Because you have decided in advance what facts you're prepared to believe in.

 

[osgart]

What kind of God would this be that creates life to eat other life just to survive?

If there is an intelligence behind the makings of life it is freakish, and wild.

If there is no time we would not age.

God is a concept of a being that does not fit our reality.

God therefore must be a scavenger, and a desperado creating this place.

I do believe intelligence always existed though! That time exists independent of matter and energy. That intelligence created life, so then there must be some sort of a spirit realm where intelligence resides.

If we are mindlessly created there is no spirit realm, but i sense that this is a total impossibility.

Nature knows no morals, and knows no God unfortunately. Unless you scale way down the meaning of God.

 

[Shadow Link]

Atheism is the only rational position possible absent a compelling demonstration of a god. Think of it as the equivalent of aleprechaunism and avampirism.Would you believe that they exist absent compelling evidence to the contrary?

Or perhaps you also think that those are also expression of people not reasoning deeply enough, or of being misinformed, or are an expression by many who have been hurt from some form of false religion about leprechauns and vampires.

The answer is obvious. If there is no reason to believe in gods, leprechauns, or vampires, one probably shouldn't believe in any of them, and if one does, it is that person that is not reasoning deeply enough.

So are you for Atheism or do you oppose it? It doesn't seem clear.

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

Basically, I am an atheist right, so I would like for you to explain to me why your god is real and use facts not opinions, please.

How does Atheism operate on fact? Use facts please.

 

[ratiocinator]

God comes first to our minds as an idea that needs further investigation.

God is not an idea - they are many, many, different, loosely connected, ideas. They only need further investigation if somebody can come up with some reason to take one (or more) of them seriously.

Is Atheism simply an expression of not reasoning deeply enough, misinformed, or just a theme expressed by many whose been hurt from some form of false religion about God?

It is often an expression of not seeing any good reason to take any of the many gods that humans do, and have, believed in, seriously. After all, humans do seem very prone to inventing unseen beings and influences.

 

[PureX]

God is not an idea - they are many, many, different, loosely connected, ideas. They only need further investigation if somebody can come up with some reason to take one (or more) of them seriously.

Billions of human beings have found that their ideas of God work them in the ways they need it to. And when something works, we tend not to investigate it further until it stops working. And even then we only investigate it to see if we can make it work for us, again. No one really knows or cares what the "truth" of God, is. The truth, to us, is that it works, or it doesn't. In this regard atheists are no different from theists, except that they've decided that the God-idea doesn't work for them, where as the theist has determined that it does. No one really gives a crap about the truth, which is a good thing, because when it comes to gods, we have no way of determining the truth beyond our own subjective experience of the idea.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is "one of the greatest proofs" of god, is it? Isn't it, well, a tad underwhelming? Doubly so as the messages don't really seem to fit together (unless you're very selective about it).

God only wants our hearts to know God and Love. It does not need an outward display, to appease those with worldy appitites. Those hearts that want Peace, Love, Unity and Justice will seek this aim over all things and when found their lives will change for ever, never to long again for things of this world.

Thus It was not underwhelming to those that accept what are proofs of the Spirit and use those proofs to change the world for the better.

It is also worth considering those that wanted power over the people also see it as more than a passing fad as they try to exterminate the influence.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A true Messenger of God is not found there. Only false messengers are found there.

More than likely you will find them on Death row for the crime of trying to implement Peace, Love and Justice.

Regards Tony

 

[ratiocinator]

Billions of human beings have found that their ideas of God work them in the ways they need it to.

Yes but that is no indication of the truth of the matter and it's not as if holding beliefs for no rational reason hasn't done a great deal of harm in the world.

No one really know or cares what the "truth" of God, is.

This is clearly a false statement. I personally know many people who do care about the truth of their gods. I accept that many religious people do not care so much about the objective truth of their claims, but many do.

The truth, to us, is that it works, or it doesn't.

Either a given god exists or it doesn't - that is the truth.

No one really gives a crap about the truth, which is a good thing, because when it comes to gods, we have no way of determining the truth beyond our own subjective experience of the idea.

Again, I know several people who do give a crap, so you are wrong. Secondly, if we have no objective (intersubjectively verifiable) evidence of something and no sound reasoning to support the idea, it has the status of a random guess as far as truth is concerned.

You seem to be arguing that belief in gods is somehow on a par with taste or aesthetics; just a personal preference. I really wish all people with religious faith viewed it like that, but they don't. Tell it to those suffering from persecution because they have the wrong/no religion or the wrong sexuality in societies dominated by religion.

 

[lukethethird]

No one really gives a crap about the truth, which is a good thing, because when it comes to gods, we have no way of determining the truth beyond our own subjective experience of the idea.

No one really gives a crap about gods, which is a good thing because when it comes to gods, who gives a crap?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Is Atheism simply an expression of not reasoning deeply enough, misinformed, or just a theme expressed by many whose been hurt from some form of false religion about God?

I’m sure there are many who have been hurt by it!

In fact, pastors telling their members that “God took” their loved ones in death....I’ve heard some say this. That would just push people away from God! Hebrews 2:14 tells us who is really behind it.

There are many other examples of teachings which have hurt people!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

1) What is your (or Bahaullah's) definition of "True Faith". Faith is a subjective belief in God as far as I know. Is there True and False if we talk about personal belief. Facts can be True or False maybe, but Faith is not about Facts, so I do not understand "True" in this context.

"True faith is conscious knowledge expressed in action. Bahá’u’lláh states that “The essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds…” On the same subject, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá writes: “it is first ‘to know’ and then ‘to do’.” If we know of a truth, then, it is incumbent on us to act in accordance with it, detached from the things of this world. “[T]hey that tread the path of faith,” Bahá’u’lláh has written, “must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way.”

Thus one can see True Faith in action, the world is a better place because of it. All else is from men pursuing self filled goals in life.

Faith and Reason | What Bahá’ís Believe

2) Does Bahaullah explicitly declare (beyond a doubt, where no interpretation is needed) that certain Faiths are False/True. Any verses?

A big subject, but this quote would cover what it is that is from God.

"...Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand."

Thus this is why we are asked only to look for good in all people, we are to look for God. All good that cones from us is from God.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 149-150

"O CHILDREN OF MEN!
Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created. Since We have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest. Such is My counsel to you, O concourse of light! Heed ye this counsel that ye may obtain the fruit of holiness from the tree of wondrous glory."Bahá'u'lláh The Hidden Words

Regards Tony

 

[ratiocinator]

God only wants our hearts to know God and Love. It does not need an outward display, to appease those with worldy appitites.

I'm not sure why making its message clear to everyone and unambiguous would be about appeasing worldly appetites, unless you think wanting some objective reason to believe in something is a "worldly appetite".

 

[PureX]

I personally know many people who do care about the truth of their gods. I accept that many religious people do not care so much about the objective truth of their claims, but many do.

There is no "objective truth" when it comes to God. There is only the possibility that our idea of God is true, and our choice to trust in that possibility, or not to.

Secondly, if we have no objective (intersubjectively verifiable) evidence of something and no sound reasoning to support the idea, it has the status of a random guess as far as truth is concerned.

Millions of people believe in the same God-concept and find that it works for them in their lives as it is purported and expected to. That is their "intersubjective verification", and the fact that it does work for them is certainly reason enough for them to continue their belief, especially when they have no proof to the contrary (and neither do you or anyone else).

You seem to be arguing that belief in gods is somehow on a par with taste or aesthetics; just a personal preference. I really wish all people with religious faith viewed it like that, but they don't. Tell it to those suffering from persecution because they have the wrong/no religion or the wrong sexuality in societies dominated by religion.

People persecute other people for all sorts of reasons, and with all kinds of excuses. It really has little or nothing to do with theology. The thing that matters about theology is that the God-ideals we choose to hold both reflect and embolden who we already are. And if that is not who we want to be, or want to become, then we need to change our God ideals.

Put simply, this means that angry, vengeful, violent people tend to believe in angry, vengeful, violent Gods, and then use those beliefs to justify being angry, vengeful and violent. Whereas kind, generous, forgiving people tend to believe in kind, generous, forgiving Gods, and use those beliefs to inspire kindness, generosity, and forgiveness within themselves and others. And all of this is true whether any gods actually exist beyond our trusted ideals, or not. THIS is the "reality of God" that the OP is looking for. And it is a FACT that cannot and should not be denied or overlooked.

 

[Subduction Zone]

How does Atheism operate on fact? Use facts please.

Atheism is a lack of belief in a god or gods. I lack that belief, that is a fact. That is all that is needed.

What theists constantly run away from is the burden of proof. They seem to know that they have no valid reasons for their beliefs Most atheists state the simple fact that they do not believe in god, but that they would change their minds if evidence for a god was given. This is a rational mindset. It is irrational to believe rather extreme claims without strong evidence.

 

[lukethethird]

How does Atheism operate on fact? Use facts please.

Atheism operates on love and good wishes, those are the facts.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

My definition of proof is that which convinces. Personally, I am not very interested in what others are willing to believe, but what they know and can demonstrate. I do not call that which convinces another but not me proof.

Those that tell us of God are the first to demonstrate what they teach.

Regards Tony

 

[Shadow Link]

Atheism is a lack of belief in a god or gods. I lack that belief, that is a fact. That is all that is needed.

Therefore you take no intellectual action yourself.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Therefore you take no intellectual action yourself.

Not much is needed to defend the obvious.

Yet strangely enough most theists do not understand this.

 

[ratiocinator]

There is no "objective truth" when it comes to God.

Nonsense. Either a given god exists outside of people's minds or not.

Millions of people believe in the same God-concept and find that it works for them in their lives as it is purported and expected to. That is their "intersubjective verification", and the fact that it does work for them is certainly reason enough for them to continue their belief, especially when they have no proof to the contrary (and neither do you or anyone else).

Different gods working for different people is the very antithesis of intersubjective verification. The point is that it shouldn't depend on the person doing the verification.

Put simply, this means that angry, vengeful, violent people tend to believe in angry,vengeful, violent God-ideals, and then use those beliefs to justify being angry, vengeful and violent behavior. Whereas kind, generous, forgiving people tend to believe in kind, generous, forgiving God-ideals, and use those beliefs to inspire kindness, generosity, and forgiveness within themselves and others.

While I'm sure this is true to an extent, I again know people who are generally kind, generous, forgiving but who (for example) feel that they need to disapprove of homosexuality because of their faith.

THIS is the "reality of God" that the OP is looking for. And it is a FACT that cannot and should not be denied.

That isn't the "reality of God" - it's part of the reality of the belief in many different gods.