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'Christ's family were refugees too'

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
You actually think that people are such absolute
dimbulbs that they didnt see who you did that?

That is a face palm and a "sigh", for sure.

How can Christ Jesus the Lord be a refugee in his own land, have you figured that out.

Let's for say that you own a thousand acres of land, now no matter where you go in that land you can never be a refugee seeing you own the whole land.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
How can Christ Jesus the Lord be a refugee in his own land...
Because the Romans had jurisdiction, plus one of the gospels has it that the Holy Family sought refuge in Egypt. Also, a "refugee" is defined as "one whom seeks refuge", typically of a political and/or religious type, regardless as to where they may end up going.

Hispanics live on Earth, and since boundaries are artificial creations, one can view that they have rights even outside their country of origin, and the U.N. and also American law recognizes that.
 
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Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Because the Romans had jurisdiction, plus one of the gospels has it that the Holy Family sought refuge in Egypt. Also, a "refugee" is defined as "one whom seeks refuge", typically of a political and/or religious type, regardless as to where they may end up going.

Hispanics live on Earth, and since boundaries are artificial creations, one can view that they have rights even outside their country of origin, and the U.N. and also American law recognizes that.

There's no where in any of the four gospel's that has anything about refuge.
Since you said in the four gospel's then you wouldn't mind by producing in what gospels it's written ( Refuge)

But still any where Christ Jesus the Lord would go is still his land.
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
How can Christ Jesus the Lord be a refugee in his own land, have you figured that out.

Let's for say that you own a thousand acres of land, now no matter where you go in that land you can never be a refugee seeing you own the whole land.

How can you possibly not understand that what you
are saying is obvious to anyone, and that it was
obvious the first time through???????

IN ANY CASE, it is your opinion that he "owned" the
land.

But then, "jesus" is said to have said he wasnt god,
but maybe you dont agree with him. :D
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
There's no where in any of the four gospel's that has anything about refuge.
Since you said in the four gospel's then you wouldn't mind by producing in what gospels it's written ( Refuge)

But still any where Christ Jesus the Lord would go is still his land.
Matt.2[13] Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there till I tell you; for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him."[14] And he rose and took the child and his mother by night, and departed to Egypt,[15] and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

I think the rest of us at least know what a "refugee" is even if that word is not used above.

BTW, Jesus was borne a Jew, and Egypt was and is certainly not a Jewish country.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
How can you possibly not understand that what you
are saying is obvious to anyone, and that it was
obvious the first time through???????

IN ANY CASE, it is your opinion that he "owned" the
land.

But then, "jesus" is said to have said he wasnt god,
but maybe you dont agree with him. :D

So that you know, it's not my opinion, it's what's written in the Bible/scriptures.
But then you wouldn't no nothing about it.

Like I said, if you owned a thousand acres of land and no matter where you went on that land, there is no way you can be a refugee on your own land.

There's no where Jesus as ever saying that he isn't God.
Can you produce in what book and chapter and verses in the Bible where Jesus said such a thing.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Matt.2[13] Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there till I tell you; for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him."[14] And he rose and took the child and his mother by night, and departed to Egypt,[15] and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

I think the rest of us at least know what a "refugee" is even if that word is not used above.

BTW, Jesus was borne a Jew, and Egypt was and is certainly not a Jewish country.

There's nothing there about ( Refuge)

It doesn't matter what others will say, What really matters is what God will say, who's land is who's. Seeing that Christ Jesus created all things and even the earth, that means all land of the earth belongs to Christ Jesus the Lords.

So how is it that you add unto what isn't there.
Still all land whether it's Egypt or Jewish or any where else, is still the land of Christ Jesus the Lords

Exodus 19:5--"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine"

Colossians 1:16-17--"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him"

17-- "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist"

Therefore no matter where Christ Jesus the Lord goes in the land of the earth, all the land of the earth belongs to Christ Jesus the Lord.

Seeing to be a refugee, means going into a land that is not yours
Seeing that Christ Jesus created all things, including the earth.
Therefore Christ Jesus the Lord can not be a refugee in his own land the earth.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
There's nothing there about ( Refuge)

So how is it that you add unto what isn't there.
Apparently you have no comprehension of even the most basic English as other words can sometimes mean much the same as another word. The author could easily have put "refuge" or "refugees" in when referring to the Holy Family fleeing to Egypt without changing its context.

Anyhow, believe in what you want to believe as you surely do that quite well.

BTW, are you related to Donald Trump as I see a similar pattern with this between you two?
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Apparently you have no comprehension of even the most basic English as other words can sometimes mean much the same as another word. The author could easily have put "refuge" or "refugees" in when referring to the Holy Family fleeing to Egypt without changing its context.

Anyhow, believe in what you want to believe as you surely do that quite well.

BTW, are you related to Donald Trump as I see a similar pattern with this between you two?

Are we getting a little sarcastic, of not having things come your way.
 

TheresOnlyNow

The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think
How can you possibly not understand that what you
are saying is obvious to anyone, and that it was
obvious the first time through???????

IN ANY CASE, it is your opinion that he "owned" the
land.

But then, "jesus" is said to have said he wasnt god,
but maybe you dont agree with him. :D


John 14:7-10 [7] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." [8] Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." [9] Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? [10] Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

John 10:37-38 [37] Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38] But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.'"

John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.
 

TheresOnlyNow

The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think
Perhaps the Christian doesn't realize when reading this latest. This meme isn't new as it seeks to make a corollary between refugees and the holy family. And thereby impugn contemporary efforts to secure a nations border from encroachment by illegal entities. And those who do not have lawful refugee status.

Shared with permission:
The Daily Wire
Joseph, Mary, and Jesus Were Not Refugees


By FRANK CAMP
December 25, 2016


Every December, as millions celebrate the birth of Christ, a bevy of people who know absolutely nothing about the New Testament try their dead-level best to trap Christians in a hypocrisy trap. Memes and quotes spread across social media like a virus, claiming the story of Mary, Joseph, and Jesus is analogous to the Syrian refugee crisis:

Jesus was a refugee
Matthew 2: 1-23 pic.twitter.com/zZZp3n1dPK

— Sara Proegler (@saraeproegler) December 6, 2016
Although there are multiple variations of the meme, most are similar to the one above, which reads: "Don't forget to hate refugees as you set up a nativity scene celebrating a middle eastern couple desperately looking for shelter."

A healthy debate about the Syrian refugee crisis is perfectly acceptable and necessary, however, it is in no way analogous to the story of the birth of Christ. Let us count the ways.

Mary and Joseph Weren't Fleeing a Brutal Civil War

While thousands of Syrians are fleeing the horrifying civil war in which Syrian President Bashar al-Assad is killing thousands of his own people, Mary and Joseph were returning home for a government-mandated census.

Luke 2: 1-7 states:

"In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.) And everyone went to their own town to register.

So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them."

The two situations couldn't be more different.

There Was No Room at the "Inn"

Tradition has long-held that the reason Mary and Joseph were sheltered in a manger was because there was "no room at the inn." This is a mistranslation of sorts, and as seen above in the New International Version (NIV) of the New Testament, the Greek word "kataluma" is more accurately translated as "guest room."

Regardless of exact meaning, the reason Mary and Joseph couldn't find a room--be it a guest room, or a room at an inn--was likely because the town of Bethlehem was filled to the brim with travelers returning home for the census. They weren't turned away because they were refugees fleeing a war-torn nation.

Mary and Joseph Weren't Potential Terrorist Threats

Mary and Joseph were Jews returning to Bethlehem for a census; they weren't potential radicals. There was no reason to believe they would enact violence upon the people of Bethlehem.

Syrian refugees are majority Muslim. Western civilization is currently waging a war with the socio-political ideology of radical Islam. As it stands, the United States has an extraordinarily difficult time vetting Syrian refugees because there is little (if any) data intelligence agencies can extract from Syria due to its ongoing civil war.

As FBI Director James Comey said: "We can only query against that which we have collected...with respect to Iraqi refugees, we had far more in our databases because of our country's work there for a decade. This is a different situation."

Fox News reports that Syrian refugees face additional vetting, including the gathering of biometric data, like fingerprints. They also face an interview:

There is also a "non-adversarial” in-person overseas interview of the applicant conducted by a DHS agent that’s been specially trained during an eight-week course in how to probe an applicant’s credibility.

However, even the most thorough vetting isn't perfect:

One example is the case of two Iraqi refugees who were accepted into the U.S. and lived for a time in Bowling Green, Ky. – before they were outed as former Al Qaeda in Iraq terrorists who had shot at U.S. troops and planted IEDs.

Director of National Intelligence James Clapper said in September, 2015: "I don’t, obviously, put it past the likes of ISIL to infiltrate operatives among these refugees, so that’s a huge concern of ours." One month later, two men entered Greece as refugees. The men later travelled to Paris where they participated in one of the most heinous terror attacks in European history.

Mary and Joseph were not terrorists.

They Fled to Egypt

Proponents of the "Mary, Joseph, and Jesus were refugees" argument frequently point out that the trio fled to Egypt when Herod called for Christ's execution.

Matthew 2: 13-15 states:

"When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. 'Get up,' he said, 'take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.'

So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: 'Out of Egypt I called my son.'"

Though slightly more analogous than before, Mary, Joseph, and Jesus fleeing to Egypt is still not comparable to the Syrian refugee crisis. As was mentioned above, there was no fear that the blessed family were potential terrorists who would pose a danger to the people of Egypt. Moreover, it's not known if authorities in Egypt even knew that the family entered the nation.

Progressives, many of whom have only a tenuous understanding of the Bible--if any at all--revel in making Christians appear hypocritical or disingenuous because it validates their belief that those who follow scripture are intolerant, bigoted fools. They publish memes on social media featuring punchy talking points about Jesus and refugees in the hope that people will take them at face value. Unfortunately, many do take such memes at face value, thus feeding the ever-increasing social hatred of Christians.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Apparently you have no comprehension of even the most basic English as other words can sometimes mean much the same as another word. The author could easily have put "refuge" or "refugees" in when referring to the Holy Family fleeing to Egypt without changing its context.

Anyhow, believe in what you want to believe as you surely do that quite well.

BTW, are you related to Donald Trump as I see a similar pattern with this between you two?

Whatever the semanticality, it was seriously missing the
point, but hey, it was not much of a point any of the time.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
John 14:7-10 [7] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." [8] Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." [9] Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? [10] Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

John 10:37-38 [37] Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38] But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.'"

John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.

And as many sources will say he did not claim to be god.
If I wanted to play dueling quotes and websites.

But then, the guy never wrote anything down, and,
nobody else recorded (claimed to have "recorded") anything
till years and years later.

You of course are welcome to believe as you will, but
statements of facts not in evidence will not win the day
except with your group.

Your last quote presumably makes you about to be
as much god as jesus. Which, imho, aint much.

-so that they may be one as we are one.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
You could. It would be incredibly vapid to apply them to 1st C mythological narratives, but that's your prerogative and you seem to want to enjoy it.

Wrong. The comparison is being made by others. I only force people to use the standard they would rather omit as it causes the point to collapse.



Seeing as the analogy is based on the assumption that people believe in the narrative, it assumes that the massacre of the innocents actually happened. You do understand the relationship between the Bible and Christianity don't you?

Yes. Now do you see the political angle behind the later point? The "gotcha" attempt at anti-immigration Christians?

Regardless, it is a reference to a well known narrative, which is a common part of human communication that doesn't necessarily require the narrative to be true. If someone pointed out that the tale of Icarus cautioned against hubris, you seem like the sort who would miss the point and argue that this is nonsense as it is impossible to construct your own functioning wings out of feathers and wax, so the narrative is illogical.

Wrong. You missed the political background of the point. I acknowledge the religious axiom days ago.

Do you really want to get into theology here? How can Jesus, who is also God, be a refugee due to a human source? How can a prophesied Messiah be a under a real threat while still maintain the prophecy and Messiah claim?

Believer #1 "Behold our prophesied savior! He will led us to the Kingdom of God by doing X, Y, Z!"
Believer #2 "Umm Bob...... The King killed him before the Messiah got to point A. They found out about his bday party"
Believer #1 "Well then.... Who is the next Messiah on the list?"

Someone stumbles into being a Messiah by accident right? Like falling into a tree.



It's very simple, her point: "If you believe in the Biblical narrative then Jesus was a refugee fleeing from persecution. Some people today are fleeing from persecution. As such you should try to empathise with these people, especially at this time of year." The coherence of this has nothing to do with the UNHCR or the post-Westphalian system, simply that some people are forced to leave their homes to avoid danger.

Now add the comparison being made.

If your response to this is "OMG, lulz. Jesus wasn't a refugee because modern international law didn't exist in the 1st C and the word refugee only exists in the context of modern international law' I'll leave it up to others to decide whose view is 'amusing'.

Wrong. I only force people to use the standard they rather omit.

If you want to find a problem with the analogy, it is that most modern immigrants are not refugees. I'll leave it to Christians to establish what the Christian position should be on this.

Wrong. I am attacking the political background which has been omitted.

If your complaint is that Jesus wasn't a refugee because he wouldn't meet the modern UN legal criteria based around an international system, political entities, concepts of citizenship, territorial integrity, human rights and international law that didn't exist then, that's inane.

See the above.

More ones who can't figure out that the 1st C world was significantly different to the modern system of sovereign nation states operating under modern international law in the modern world with modern communications and transportation technologies.

Yet the comparison must using the modern standard or it fails.

Anyway, if you want to die on the hill that people in the ancient world could only be described as refugees when they met the modern legalistic criteria based on 21st C international law that relies on numerous concepts that didn't exist and ignored the realities of life in the ancient world, I'll leave you to it.

Wrong. I am just pointing out the political bias and the omission of standard being used.

Perhaps we can start retroactively applying other laws to the past and criticise Alexander the Great for not obeying the Geneva Convention; Ghengis Khan for not obeying workplace health and safety laws when he burned down cities; or the Spartan military for not employing equal opportunity policies with regard to the disabled.

We do that all the time anyways.

Like most people, you'd probably find this quite stupid though. Yet...

Yet you still miss the point that there is an omitted standard which must include modern standards for refugees or the point fails. Try again. Perhaps ask yourself why this comparison is being made so you get a clue
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
Wrong. The comparison is being made by others. I only force people to use the standard they would rather omit as it causes the point to collapse.





Yes. Now do you see the political angle behind the later point? The "gotcha" attempt at anti-immigration Christians?



Wrong. You missed the political background of the point. I acknowledge the religious axiom days ago.





Now add the comparison being made.



Wrong. I only force people to use the standard they rather omit.



Wrong. I am attacking the political background which has been omitted.



See the above.



Yet the comparison must using the modern standard or it fails.



Wrong. I am just pointing out the political bias and the omission of standard being used.



We do that all the time anyways.



Yet you still miss the point that there is an omitted standard which must include modern standards for refugees or the point fails. Try again. Perhaps ask yourself why this comparison is being made so you get a clue

As hidden agendas go, that one was kinda
not so well camoflaged, was it.
 
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