• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

'Christ's family were refugees too'

I can just use UN standards.

You could. It would be incredibly vapid to apply them to 1st C mythological narratives, but that's your prerogative and you seem to want to enjoy it.

Except when applied to the modern system the Biblical view would be rejected due to lack of evidence and application of modern standards.

Seeing as the analogy is based on the assumption that people believe in the narrative, it assumes that the massacre of the innocents actually happened. You do understand the relationship between the Bible and Christianity don't you?

Regardless, it is a reference to a well known narrative, which is a common part of human communication that doesn't necessarily require the narrative to be true. If someone pointed out that the tale of Icarus cautioned against hubris, you seem like the sort who would miss the point and argue that this is nonsense as it is impossible to construct your own functioning wings out of feathers and wax, so the narrative is illogical.

Wrong as the claim is being used to make a comparison and force a moral outcome targeted at those that hold Jesus in a positive light namely Christians. Christians that also hold a negative view regarding modern refugees and immigration. The goal is to create a disconnect between values and different treatment thus merely point a moral finger at people

The fact you are oblivious to this or just ignore it is amusing.

It's very simple, her point: "If you believe in the Biblical narrative then Jesus was a refugee fleeing from persecution. Some people today are fleeing from persecution. As such you should try to empathise with these people, especially at this time of year." The coherence of this has nothing to do with the UNHCR or the post-Westphalian system, simply that some people are forced to leave their homes to avoid danger.

If your response to this is "OMG, lulz. Jesus wasn't a refugee because modern international law didn't exist in the 1st C and the word refugee only exists in the context of modern international law' I'll leave it up to others to decide whose view is 'amusing'.

If you want to find a problem with the analogy, it is that most modern immigrants are not refugees. I'll leave it to Christians to establish what the Christian position should be on this.

If your complaint is that Jesus wasn't a refugee because he wouldn't meet the modern UN legal criteria based around an international system, political entities, concepts of citizenship, territorial integrity, human rights and international law that didn't exist then, that's inane.

You means ones that can not figure out the difference between a province and a nation? Its like fleeing to Texas from Cali

More ones who can't figure out that the 1st C world was significantly different to the modern system of sovereign nation states operating under modern international law in the modern world with modern communications and transportation technologies.

Anyway, if you want to die on the hill that people in the ancient world could only be described as refugees when they met the modern legalistic criteria based on 21st C international law that relies on numerous concepts that didn't exist and ignored the realities of life in the ancient world, I'll leave you to it.

Perhaps we can start retroactively applying other laws to the past and criticise Alexander the Great for not obeying the Geneva Convention; Ghengis Khan for not obeying workplace health and safety laws when he burned down cities; or the Spartan military for not employing equal opportunity policies with regard to the disabled.

Like most people, you'd probably find this quite stupid though. Yet...
 
It's totally amazing how people will take scriptures out of the bible and try to imply them in some other way that has absolutely positively nothing to do with people of to day.

Imagine Christians applying their scriptures to the modern day! No self-respecting Christian would do that!
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Imagine Christians applying their scriptures to the modern day! No self-respecting Christian would do that!

The only way that scriptures can apply in to days world, if God has already applied them to the future and our time in history.

So in that case where is it written that says Joseph and Mary and the Christ child are refugees?
Little does people know, by Joseph and Mary and the Christ child going into Egypt was still in their land.
 
The only way that scriptures can apply in to days world, if God has already applied them to the future and our time in history.

So in that case where is it written that says Joseph and Mary and the Christ child are refugees?
Little does people know, by Joseph and Mary and the Christ child going into Egypt was still in their land.

In the Bible.

Now after they had left, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Get up, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” 14Then Joseph got up, took the child and his mother by night, and went to Egypt, 15and remained there until the death of Herod.

(And no, fulfilling a prophecy at the same time doesn't negate this)
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
In the Bible.

Now after they had left, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Get up, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” 14Then Joseph got up, took the child and his mother by night, and went to Egypt, 15and remained there until the death of Herod.

(And no, fulfilling a prophecy at the same time doesn't negate this)

How does a person flee into their country become a refugee.
It's like this Joseph and Mary and the Christ child was in fulling prophecy, When they flee into Egypt
When it comes to fulling God's prophecy it does absolutely change things.

Seeing how Christ Jesus was taken into his own country.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
You know, @Vouthon , if you have to post thousands of words to explain why a TWEET was not completely wrong and bone-headed, you have perhaps proven why it wasn't the wisest analogy to make in the first place.
 
You know, @Vouthon , if you have to post thousands of words to explain why a TWEET was not completely wrong and bone-headed, you have perhaps proven why it wasn't the wisest analogy to make in the first place.

Could basically say the same thing about person making any tweet about any controversial political issue. People will act in bad faith and find fault with anything that doesn't chime with their ideological leanings and will refuse to accept it is anything other than a statement of great evil/stupidity/racism/intent to turn puppies into a fur coat/evidence they are the antichrist/etc.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
How does someone forced to flee their home and travel to a different area to avoid being killed by a tyrant become a refugee?

Because that's what a refugee is.

how does that make Christ Jesus a refugee?
Seeing Christ Jesus is the Lord. And seeing wherever Christ Jesus goes, he's still in his land.
If you have any doubts trying reading the Bible/scriptures.
 
Last edited:
how does that make Christ a refugee?

Because that is what the word means regardless of whether or not this is ideologically convenient for you: a person who has been forced to leave his or her home and seek refuge elsewhere, esp. in a foreign country, from war, religious persecution, political troubles, the effects of a natural disaster, etc.; a displaced person.

 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
You know, @Vouthon , if you have to post thousands of words to explain why a TWEET was not completely wrong and bone-headed, you have perhaps proven why it wasn't the wisest analogy to make in the first place.

That one was witty @YmirGF, thanks for giving me a laugh :D

To be fair, my thousand-word treatise of an OP was not one huge defence of Ms Occasio's tweet - rather, I started with the issue her tweet had raised, addressed her detractors and then waded into the actual theological dispute at its heart to explain where my own understanding of it lay.

I am not one for brevity, I guess. My reputation precedes me on that score!
 
Last edited:

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Because that is what the word means regardless of whether or not this is ideologically convenient for you: a person who has been forced to leave his or her home and seek refuge elsewhere, esp. in a foreign country, from war, religious persecution, political troubles, the effects of a natural disaster, etc.; a displaced person.

Not knowing it you just proved my point
Christ Jesus the Lord even as a child, didn't flee his land, have you any clue or idea how this is to work?
 
Last edited:
But yet Christ Jesus the Lord even as a child, didn't flee his land, have you any clue or idea how this is to work?

Now after they had left, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Get up, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” 14Then Joseph got up, took the child and his mother by night, and went to Egypt, 15and remained there until the death of Herod.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Now after they had left, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Get up, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” 14Then Joseph got up, took the child and his mother by night, and went to Egypt, 15and remained there until the death of Herod.

That says nothing about Christ Jesus the Lord as being a refugee in his own land
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Jesus wept
:facepalm:

Seeing as you are having difficultly with some basic conventions of the English language, never mind...

Seeing that your having difficulty knowing no matter where Christ Jesus the Lord would have gone to, he would still be in his own land.

Now your probably wondering how can I say that.
By studying the Bible/scriptures, that will tell anyone how I can say that no matter what land Christ Jesus the Lord would gone to, he still would be in his own land.

In the Bible/scriptures will tell anyone that.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Seeing that your having difficulty knowing no matter where Christ Jesus the Lord would have gone to, he would still be in his own land.

Now your probably wondering how can I say that.
By studying the Bible/scriptures, that will tell anyone how I can say that no matter what land Christ Jesus the Lord would gone to, he still would be in his own land.

In the Bible/scriptures will tell anyone that.

You actually think that people are such absolute
dimbulbs that they didnt see who you did that?

That is a face palm and a "sigh", for sure.
 
Top