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John 14:28

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Why would he need Jesus' permission to do anything at all? In Trinitarian doctrine he too is 100% of God. As for Jesus sending him, he's God, and so he's not for anyone to send.

But I'm not clear on who answers the phone when you call on the Trinitarian God. Do you know the answer?


It seems you have a hard time grasping,
When a Christian prays they first pray in the name of Christ Jesus, asking God the Father thru the name of Christ Jesus and then God the Father answers the prayers of those who believe.

But prayers must first be in the name of Christ Jesus, then God the Father answer them accordingly.

It's God the Father who answers the phone, but upon hearing the person asking in the name of Christ Jesus, then God the Father answers them back, but not until God the Father hears Christ Jesus name first.

This why Christ Jesus said that no one comes unto the Father but by him ( Christ Jesus)

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" John 14:6

Therefore for any prayers to be answered they must first ask in the name of Christ Jesus with a sincere heart of believing and then God the Father answers accordingly.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
This is a translation; there aren't capital letters in Hebrew.

In my opinion.
:innocent:

If to what you say to be true then why is the Almighty God s name in capital letters
YHWH in Hebrew?

Note that in the Tanaka 6:3--"
appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob with [the name] Almighty God, but [with] My name YHWH, I did not become known to them. גוָֽאֵרָ֗א אֶל־אַבְרָהָ֛ם אֶל־יִצְחָ֥ק וְאֶל־יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב בְּאֵ֣ל שַׁדָּ֑י וּשְׁמִ֣י יְהֹוָ֔ה לֹ֥א נוֹדַ֖עְתִּי לָהֶֽם:

So why is it in the Tanaka God's name in capital letters YHWH ?

If to what you say is right, there are no capital in Hebrew?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Sure can produce scripture, but the question is, are you willing to accept it.

"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel"
Isaiah 7:14

" Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us" Matthew 1:23

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" Isaiah 9:6

There you have it, Jesus Christ the child is born.
Jesus Christ Wonderful, Counsellor,The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father,The Prince of Peace.
So where in those scriptures did you see Jesus Christ is God the father?

Seeing you call it non-sense

What you have is

1--God the Father
1--Son of God
1--Holy Spirit
Unto which equals the Trinity 3
But still only 1 God.

It seems you have a hard time with simple math.
Simple math? How is 3 = 1? You said 1+1+1=3, good, but then 3=1. That's not correct math. I could not do that at school and get it correct.

If the teacher gave me a mathematical equation, there is no way, no how, I can get 3 = 1.
So do you have real math to explain this, because that math you presented doesn't add up.
Are you talking about parts - 3 parts equal one whole, then the parts are are a percentage making the whole.
Does it appear I have a hard time with simple math? Then could you explain please, where I went wrong.
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It seems you have a hard time grasping,
When a Christian prays they first pray in the name of Christ Jesus, asking God the Father thru the name of Christ Jesus and then God the Father answers the prayers of those who believe.

But prayers must first be in the name of Christ Jesus, then God the Father answer them accordingly.

It's God the Father who answers the phone, but upon hearing the person asking in the name of Christ Jesus, then God the Father answers them back, but not until God the Father hears Christ Jesus name first.

This why Christ Jesus said that no one comes unto the Father but by him ( Christ Jesus)

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" John 14:6

Therefore for any prayers to be answered they must first ask in the name of Christ Jesus with a sincere heart of believing and then God the Father answers accordingly.
Then the churches and I are right ─ it makes no sense at all.
 
Nope not at all is it confusing, once a person understands what Jesus is saying, it does however take some deep thought to figure out how it does work.
Actually its very simple.
Just give it some thought.
I can appreciate what you're saying, but I think if you re-read what you are saying, then you can see that even within your argument to defend that Jesus doesn't these things to cause confusion, your answer is inherently confusing.

Interesting indeed.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This truth can only be known when God shows someone. In Matthew 11:25-27 we see that no one knows the Father except the Son and only the Son can reveal the Father to anyone. So, whoever doesn't know; it's because Jesus has not shown them yet.

Well I would say that Jesus the Christ has showed us the Father Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jesus is God had no beginning, Jesus is the Alpha and Omaga.

As for Revelation 3:12, God the Father is the God of Jesus as the Son of God.

Jesus as God is God the Father.

The Flesh amounts to nothing, it is the Spirit that gives life.

Christ the son, is also the Father in Baha'u'llah.

The Son becomes the Father.

Regards Tony
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
I can appreciate what you're saying, but I think if you re-read what you are saying, then you can see that even within your argument to defend that Jesus doesn't these things to cause confusion, your answer is inherently confusing.

Interesting indeed.

Heres how it works, Jesus was of flesh and blood while here on earth, So the Father(His Father) is greater than Jesus was of flesh and blood.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Heres how it works, Jesus was of flesh and blood while here on earth, So the Father(His Father) is greater than Jesus was of flesh and blood.
I'm glad to see you acknowledge that Jesus was of flesh and blood while here on earth. That is true. Although that's not the sole reason the Father is greater.

The father is not a created being. Jesus is - hence why the titles father and son. The angels are sons of God because they were created by God. Adam was a son of God because of being created by him.
Jesus is therefore subject to his father, because he recognizes that he owes his existence to God. So be it heaven or earth, Jesus is always subject to the father - never equal.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28
24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour, Jesus called out with a loud voice, saying: “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Revelation 3:12 “‘The one who conquers - I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Why does Jesus need to be anointed as king by God? Psalms 2
Because, subsequently he was not king. Therefore, how is he God, and not king?

Interestingly, at Isaiah 9:6 sar: chieftain, chief, ruler, official, captain, prince, always refer to rank. God holds no rank, and needs no appointment, but Jesus does.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
chief captain, general, governor, keeper, lord, taskmaster, principal,

From sarar; a head person (of any rank or class) -- captain (that had rule), chief (captain), general, governor, keeper, lord, ((-task-))master, prince(-ipal), ruler, steward.

Jesus has always taken orders from his father, and obeyed his father. He serves/worships the father. Jesus is not independent, as Adam chose to be, but is dependent on his father.
Daniel 7:9-14
9 “I kept watching until thrones were set in place and the Ancient of Days sat down. His clothing was white like snow, and the hair of his head was like clean wool. His throne was flames of fire; its wheels were a burning fire. 10 A stream of fire was flowing and going out from before him. A thousand thousands kept ministering to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The Court took its seat, and books were opened. 13 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.

Psalm 110:1, 2
1 Jehovah declared to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” 2Jehovah will extend the scepter of your power out of Zion, saying: “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”

1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet.

Ephesians 1:22 He also subjected all things under his feet and made him head over all things with regard to the congregation,

Luke 22:28-30
28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

Jesus does nothing of his own initiative - only what is in accordance with the father's will.
John 5:19-30
19 Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner. 20 For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, so that you may marvel.
30
I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

If Jesus were God the father, none of the scriptures make any sense.
Hence Jesus said, So you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition. You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’” (Matthew 15:6-9)

Satan uses such false ministers to turn people like @Bob the Unbeliever, and others away from God. To them, Satan says, "Congratulations."
Although persons like Bob and other skeptics bear responsibility for their actions, since in many cases, people are not interested in truth (2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.), but just want their ears tickled (2 Timothy 4:3 . . .but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled.), Jesus still hold Satan's ministers responsible - But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith, it would be better for him if a millstone that is turned by a donkey were put around his neck and he were pitched into the sea. . .Mark 9:42

Evidently, it is important that we stick to scriptures, and avoid injecting tainted teachings into our understanding of them.
If we examine the teaching of the Trinity, we can see it is not Biblical, and we can trace it's roots to Satan's minsters.
2 Corinthians 11:14, 15
14 Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works. . .
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
My belief is that Jesus brought a message that many people liked a whole lot better than the Old Testament. But, in order to compete with God, and to win people over to Jesus' new and better/softer message of brotherly love, it had to be said that Jesus was also divine - otherwise why would anyone stray from the original tenets and beliefs? Why would anyone adopt the new, better message?

But God had already dictated that man could have no other Gods beside Himself, and even Jesus praised that same God. So those who wanted Jesus' message to spread had to concoct an elaborate (and necessarily confusing) story about how Jesus can be divine at the same time as God.

This is so easy to imagine given human nature, the great lengths it takes to get anyone to believe anything (as is prudent, mind you), and the constraints that the fabricators of the story had to work within. I really don't understand how anyone can believe it to be anything more.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Do you apply the same response to the Bible texts, that refute the teaching being promoted in this thread?
Revelation 1:6
and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father - yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.
Of course Jesus the Son of man has a Father which is God. That doesn't change the fact that Jesus is called the Everlasting Father.

Jesus is One with the Father as He said. God needed a body to take away our sins. As John the Baptist said of Jesus; He is the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world.

It's no surprise therefore; that the Immortal God made Himself a mortal body to live in and ultimately to die in. Most essentially so that He could rise from the dead and thus defeat death for all time.
It means what it says. It's not hard to understand, is it.
Jesus has a God and Father.
That's correct. Jesus has a God and Father in the flesh. Remember that Jesus' was developed from a fetus in the womb. He was bodily created as Psalm 139:14 speaks of. That doesn't change my position one Iota.
Do you agree? Who is his God? Why is that one his God and Father? Is it not because that one is greater than the son? Is it not because the son is subject to the father - he obeys the father?
Correct again. That doesn't change my position one Iota. Of course He obeyed the Father as you and I are also commanded to keep our bodies in subjection. To "crucify the flesh and the affections there of" So Jesus did it first. He submitted His will (of the flesh) to the will of God. (Luke 22:42)
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
That doesn't change my position one Iota. Jesus is still God the Father. However, as Jesus began by conquering His own flesh; He now must conquer all things. That is put all things under His human feet; so that the Father will reign in a restored and reconciled Kingdom forever. Jesus is not finished but is working.

You claim that Michael is Jesus. So therefore Michael existed before he was born of Mary. Therefore, Michael's (human) body was formed in the womb of Mary by your doctrine.

So it's the same thing I believe; except replace Michael with God. Jesus pre-existed as God and had a body formed in the womb of Mary. So then; no wonder as the Son of man: Jesus has a God(A Creator) and a Father.

So with Jesus you have two natures. That which preexisted His human birth and that which was created in the womb of Mary.

Isaiah 9:6 calls Him both a child that is born, a Son that is given and it also calls Him mighty God and Everlasting Father. This shows His two natures. Created and uncreated. Mortal and immortal.

So He is real and everything He said is true. He's the first and the last and He lives forevermore. Everything was made for Him and He created all things for His own pleasure. Every thing is subject to His will. He fills all things and is higher than all the heavens.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
I'm glad to see you acknowledge that Jesus was of flesh and blood while here on earth. That is true. Although that's not the sole reason the Father is greater.

The father is not a created being. Jesus is - hence why the titles father and son. The angels are sons of God because they were created by God. Adam was a son of God because of being created by him.
Jesus is therefore subject to his father, because he recognizes that he owes his existence to God. So be it heaven or earth, Jesus is always subject to the father - never equal.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28
24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour, Jesus called out with a loud voice, saying: “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Revelation 3:12 “‘The one who conquers - I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.


Jesus is God the Father, Then how is God the Father greater than Jesus, seeing that Jesus is God the Father.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The father is not a created being. Jesus is - hence why the titles father and son

What Christains are yet to consider is that 'Father' in the Bible is not always reference to God. It is part of the Prophecy of the end of ages where the 'Son' returns as the 'Father'. This is logical, a son always becomes a father.

Both the Son and the Father were born of the Holy Spirit, though they were born from the womb of their mothers.

Both the Son and the Father are all we will know of God.

The key to this is that the flesh amounts to nothing, it is Spirit that is life.

Regards Tony
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
What Christains are yet to consider is that 'Father' in the Bible is not always reference to God. It is part of the Prophecy of the end of ages where the 'Son' returns as the 'Father'. This is logical, a son always becomes a father.

Both the Son and the Father were born of the Holy Spirit, though they were born from the womb of their mothers.

Both the Son and the Father are all we will know of God.

The key to this is that the flesh amounts to nothing, it is Spirit that is life.

Regards Tony
I must disagree; 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Ephesians 4:6 both make it clear there is only one Father: God.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I must disagree; 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Ephesians 4:6 both make it clear there is only one Father: God.

It does not change what was offered.

Just as Christ the Son is God, So is Baha'u'llah the Father, God.

It is the same Holy Spirit given by God that we are discussing.

Clinging to the flesh, or a literal expectation is where Christianity missed what they await for.

Regards Tony
 
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