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Free Will

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
This definition has a problem and that is the claim that humans 'act freely' without outside influences. The evidence indicates that the possible ability to ' act freely' is very limited at best.

Influence =/= determination.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Influence =/= determination.

?????

The roll of determinism in nature and human nature is based on the objective verifiable evidence, as well as evidence against libertarian Free Will. The current knowledge of humanity does not conclusively determine that human nature of choices is mechanistically deterministic, but it demonstrates that determinism dominates.
 
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Earthling

David Henson
Is free will basically the idea of an open mind, or free spirit?

More about spirit than mind. It's what it says it is. Free will. The ability to do what you will. Of course, skeptics often take it to the extreme to make it look false, it doesn't mean that if you will it you can fly, free will within the limits of human abilities.
 

Earthling

David Henson
?????

The roll of determinism in nature and human nature is based on the objective verifiable evidence, as well as evidence against libertarian Free Will. The current knowledge of humanity does not conclusively determine that human nature of choices is mechanistically deterministic, but it demonstrates that determinism dominates.

?????
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member

The roll of determinism in nature and human nature is based on the objective verifiable evidence, as well as evidence against libertarian Free Will. The current knowledge of humanity does not conclusively determine that human nature of choices is mechanistically deterministic, but it demonstrates that determinism dominates.
 

Earthling

David Henson
The roll of determinism in nature and human nature is based on the objective verifiable evidence, as well as evidence against libertarian Free Will. The current knowledge of humanity does not conclusively determine that human nature of choices is mechanistically deterministic, but it demonstrates that determinism dominates.

Could you give an example of this?
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
The concept of free will in my opinion is larger than your OP and the replies I have seen so far. Free will supposes that the universe is not pre-determined.

There is a basic premise, which is that free will cannot coexist with an omniscient being. If something out there (let’s call it “God”) knows what you’re going to do or think next, or even what your great-grand-child will think or do next one century from now, then everything that we think we are doing is simply predetermined fate. If it can be read ahead of time, then you were not actually making any spontaneous decisions that were not predictable.
Conversely, if you have an idea pop into your head, and some “God” says, “Wow! I didn’t know he was going to think that!”, then that entity is NOT an all knowing entity, and while it may be a god-like being, it is definitively NOT The God.

Additionally, while obliterating the possibility of a universal God, free will would also eliminate the possibility of a purely physical universe. If the motion of every atom and electron and quark is already set up throughout the universe, and all particles are subject to laws of physics, then where they go and how they interact (including with the sodium and potassium channels in the neurons of your brain) are all knowable (even though we currently couldn’t begin to fathom how). What you choose to eat for lunch today could have been influence by how a photon bounced off a hydrogen atom in the vicinity of venus yesterday.
True free will suggests (demands) the presence of some sort of undefinable “spirit” outside of your body/brain which is able to influence your brain, and yet is not influenced by physical matter and energy within this universe.

giphy.gif

;)

why would that be an issue? all knowing and all being?


schrodinger has already shown that both states of a dead/live cat are possible. only when the idea is tested does it appear. so then all states are possible but not all states are being manifested until choice is made
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
why would that be an issue? all knowing and all being?


schrodinger has already shown that both states of a dead/live cat are possible. only when the idea is tested does it appear. so then all states are possible but not all states are being manifested until choice is made
Only the manifested state is reality.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
Free will: the ability to choose between available options.

..............including the consequences of that choice. If 'will' were not 'free,' no coercion or influence would be required.

For instance, if a robber kidnaps the family of a bank president and tells him that if he doesn't let the robbers into the bank vault, his family's lives are forfeit, that doesn't eliminate the banker's free will; he can still choose not to allow the robbers into the vault. He probably wouldn't make that choice, but he COULD. That's why the threat is being made in the first place.

I get the feeling that to many people, 'free will' means that one can choose to do anything at all, without influence from outside his own head, and without consequences. That's not 'free will.' That's chaos.

But when one has a selection of choices in front of him, and one examines the influences and the consequences of each one, and then chooses one of them, that is indeed free will.

Or at least as free as anybody can get.

IMO, of course.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Could you give an example of this?

This site deals with the extremes, which I do not agree with.

The Great Debate: Determinism and Free Will

Most scientific sources agree with the dominance of natural determinism but disagree on the nature of free will. Of course I accept the fact that you do not accept science and prefer religious doctrine, and dogma and literal Bible, I do not believe scientific references would be any meaning to you in the dialogue, nor any dialogue when comes to your religious beliefs and science.
See: Varieties of Free Will and Determinism
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
True in a way regardless of what we personally believe, but incomplete, and needs more explanation,
all created things are potential energy and all energy is potential created things.reality is that the temporal things transform into something else. so reality is no less kinetic than it is potential.
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
In what way
The current knowledge of humanity does not conclusively determine that human nature of choices is mechanistically deterministic, but it demonstrates that determinism dominates.
Considering that determinism has not been shown to be the unequivocal operative behind events, asserting that "determinism dominates" implies their are instances where it is not at work or where it is only partially at work. What instances do you have in mind?

.
 
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1213

Well-Known Member
Is free will basically the idea of an open mind, or free spirit?

Will means what person wants. And free will means person can freely want whatever he wants. It doesn’t mean everything always go as wanted, it means person can want even things that are not possible.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Will means what person wants.
So will couldn't mean what a person doesn't want?

Consider:

I want a Dixon #2 pencil for Christmas = willing what a person wants
I don't want a Dixon #2 pencil for Christmas = willing what a person doesn't want​

So, as you imply, will is synonymous with want. Question now is, why does a person want or not want a Dixon #2 pencil for Christmas. What is behind/motivating the particular wanting?

.
 
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