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They Are Not Christians!

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Happy Thanksgiving!

Gentiles are welcome to visit. But why would a Gentile want to go there if he wasn't interested in conversion? We do have such sorts at my synagogue. First, we have a LOT of intermarried. We also get all the students from local universities that are studyiing Judaism. We have Gentile community members who sing in the choir, so have been there or over 15 years. Our organist is a Christian mensch. He's been at the synagogue so long that he's a fixture. He says if he converted to Judaism, we'd have to fire him for working on the Sabbath. LOL I know Gentiles who don't come regularly, but they are "nones" and sometimes just get the urge to worship.

I think the reception will depend a lot on the synagogue. Some are very welcoming, and some are downright unfriendly. The Orthodox have a much harder time understanding why a Gentile would want to come. But if you tell them you are not a Christian, but believe in God and living rightly (B'nei Noach) you have a very good chance they would welcome you.

Is your friend interested in exploring Judaism? Like, would he be interested in going to the synagogue for classes in basic Judaism and stuff? Or is he just looking for a place to hang out? Remember that Judaism is another name for Keeping the Covenant. As a Gentile he has no such obligation. But why would he want to come to a place where everyone is practicing a religion that he's not interested in, if that's the case? I'm trying to find the neutral ground between welcoming him, and telling him it's okee dokee if he's not a Jew

My suggestion is to call your local synagogue, and discuss it with the Rabbi. See what happens.. I think this is probably a good time to check out any number of possibilities, since he has no real home. I hope he visits a synagogue and inquires into what I consider to be an incredibly beautiful, meaningful faith. But he should also visit that mosque, a Unitarian Universalist Church, and others. And perhaps he should not be so quick to give up on Christianity. As the Jackson 5 sing: "One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch of girls." There are many Christian churches that are as far from toxic as you can get. Anglicans are very open on who they let attend, for example.

Personally, I think the journey or him to a new faith community sounds awesome. I've always enjoyed learning about other faiths. They all bring something to the table (even if I like mine the best LOL).

Thankyou for that guidance......
If we would be so fortunate as to be able to visit a Synagogue it would be for exploration and discovery. And if any might ask us why we wish to enter, then we would reply that exploration and discovery takes us to most other places, and could we please come in? And then we would leave the answer to Fate.

My friend already visits a Unitarian Church, and has been showing signs of wishing to step back just a little, and that has been (partly) the reason for our travels in search of those mugs of tea (and biscuits). But as my Opening Post explains, that has been showing us that some Churches do not recognise others. Some have been quite confrontational, asking us exactly why we have come, and quite often we have been able to remind these unhappy people that they have a board outside offering 'light refreshment and a chat' (whatever) to all visitors at a particular time on a certain day. Some have clearly forgotten about their messages outside because nobody ever responds, I'm guessing.

I do know that some Rabbis are very very understanding and liberated, in fact a very well known British Rabbi conducted my gentile father's funeral service in January1984, with a very prominent Jewish gentleman in attendance, although that gentleman asked not to be identified.

One place that I would really like to visit is the Quakers' Meeting House in the heart of the City..... they even let other religions and Faiths borrow or use their premises for meetings. Now that would be a real privilege, to go there. :)
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The majority of Jews were persuaded to hate Jesus enough to want him dead
And exactly how is it that you know they comprised a "majority"? Obviously, you can't possibly know that, so what you have done again is to violate one of the Ten Commandments, namely "Do not bear false witness".
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Thankyou for your post, Muffled. Yes, I expect that the nature of Christianity is moving ......... The most popular churches around London (as far as I know) are also charismatic, but I have to say that (for example) a Pentecostal Church service is amazing experience for anybody to behold.

Which Denomination or Creed does your Church support?
It would be very helpful if you would post your Creed for members to see, because they do vary quite a bit, and that is probably the cause of pointed fingers and inter-Church backbiting such as I watched yesterday.

I am presently attending a Southern Baptist church in the north. The church across the street is a Four Square church. I wore out my welcome at the Four Square church being the heretic that I am but at least my present church tolerates me up to a point.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
"Heaven is a country club for our group only!"
"We are members of an elite group favored by God!"

If God really likes arrogant people, these claims could be true.

I believe God does not like prideful people. There is a difference. What is often thought of as arrogance is simply confidence.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
And exactly how is it that you know they comprised a "majority"? Obviously, you can't possibly know that, so what you have done again is to violate one of the Ten Commandments, namely "Do not bear false witness".

I believe the idea that Jews hated Jesus lacks foundation. I don't even think the pharisees who wanted Him killed hated Him. They probably thought they were doing God a service. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I believe the idea that Jews hated Jesus lacks foundation. I don't even think the pharisees who wanted Him killed hated Him. They probably thought they were doing God a service. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
I doubt that the vast majority of Jews in eretz Israel knew anything about Jesus or knew enough about him to draw much of a conclusion. Those calling themselves "the Messiah" were basically a shekel-a-dozen back then, so I have doubts that many of them took him seriously. The Sanhedrin and the Temple priests, otoh, would likely take a much stronger interest because they knew that "agitators" could bring the wrath of the Romans down on all of them.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
And exactly how is it that you know they comprised a "majority"? Obviously, you can't possibly know that, so what you have done again is to violate one of the Ten Commandments, namely "Do not bear false witness".

Metis, what on earth did you teach when you imparted knowledge to your 'theology' students? This demonstrates once again that you did not teach scripture but only church inspired doctrine. How could I possibly know that the majority of Jews would not be saved? I read scripture and I understand Israel's role in the outworking of Jehovah's purpose. Do you?

Are you familiar with Jesus' illustrations at all? Read Matthew 22:1-14 and ask who were the ones originally "invited" to the marriage feast of the King's son? What did the King do to those who refused to attend? What did he think of their excuses?
Who is the King in this illustration and who is his son? What is the "marriage"? Who is the bride?

Read another illustration in Matthew 21:33-41 and ask who Jesus is talking about?What was the outcome for them?

Isaiah prophesied that only a "remnant" of fleshly Israel would be saved.....which was quoted by the apostle Paul in Romans 9:27-29...

"And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute his sentence upon the earth with rigor and dispatch.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,

“If the Lord of hosts had not left us children,
we would have fared like Sodom and been made like Gomor′rah.” (NRSVCE)


All through their history, Israel proved themselves unworthy of their choosing, but God kept them in existence until his purpose in connection with them, was fulfilled. By rejecting Jesus as the promised Messiah, they put the seal on their own fate. What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah and why was it used in Isaiah's example?

If only a "remnant" was to be saved....that means that the majority were not. This is what scripture says as opposed to the cherry picking done by the churches.

When Jesus said...."O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38 Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” (NRSVCE)

They have never, as a nation, 'blessed the one who came in the name of Yahweh'. Individuals (a remnant) who accepted Jesus as the Christ were included in a new nation, under a new covenant. Paul called them "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) which was not the fleshly nation but the spiritual nation who became disciples of God's son. It included that remnant of faithful Jews and then the Gentiles who made up the 'Kingdom of priests' that Israel should have filled. People of all nations, including Jews have the same choices today, as everyone else. (Acts 10:34-35)

Please metis, do your homework before you again betray your lack of scriptural knowledge. Read your Bible man! There is obviously so much that you have never seen or been taught. Its so important to know these things because it alters our whole perception of the big picture.....our own choices depend on this knowledge. Its a life or death matter as I see it. Can you understand that? You think that all I am trying to do here is be RIGHT? (*sigh*) I actually care about the truth and I know you do too, so put down the boxing gloves and listen......evaluate the information without the defensive attitude and you will see that we are really on the same side. :(
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Thankyou for that guidance......
If we would be so fortunate as to be able to visit a Synagogue it would be for exploration and discovery. And if any might ask us why we wish to enter, then we would reply that exploration and discovery takes us to most other places, and could we please come in? And then we would leave the answer to Fate.

My friend already visits a Unitarian Church, and has been showing signs of wishing to step back just a little, and that has been (partly) the reason for our travels in search of those mugs of tea (and biscuits). But as my Opening Post explains, that has been showing us that some Churches do not recognise others. Some have been quite confrontational, asking us exactly why we have come, and quite often we have been able to remind these unhappy people that they have a board outside offering 'light refreshment and a chat' (whatever) to all visitors at a particular time on a certain day. Some have clearly forgotten about their messages outside because nobody ever responds, I'm guessing.

I do know that some Rabbis are very very understanding and liberated, in fact a very well known British Rabbi conducted my gentile father's funeral service in January1984, with a very prominent Jewish gentleman in attendance, although that gentleman asked not to be identified.

One place that I would really like to visit is the Quakers' Meeting House in the heart of the City..... they even let other religions and Faiths borrow or use their premises for meetings. Now that would be a real privilege, to go there. :)
Sorry to hear that the Unitarian church isn't all he hoped it would be. But that just means the fun of continuing the journey of exploration. Quakers are wonderful people, though you should know that the denomination has gone through major splits, and there are liberal Quakers and evangelical Quakers and they are quite different.

I'm so glad you've had a positive experience with a Rabbi! I hope you find a good synagogue to visit. Remember that there are toxic shuls out there as well as many spiritually healthy ones, so don't give up if the first Rabbi chases you away.

Besides, especially in the Orthodox tradition, Rabbis are SUPPOSED to chase people away. That sifts out the uncommitted from those who are truly drawn. So it's kind of their job. LOL quite different from evangelistic mindset, eh? :)

Sending up my prayers that you find where you are meant to be. If you have any questions regarding Judaism, just start a new thread on that, and I and the others will be happy to help you.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Sorry to hear that the Unitarian church isn't all he hoped it would be. But that just means the fun of continuing the journey of exploration. Quakers are wonderful people, though you should know that the denomination has gone through major splits, and there are liberal Quakers and evangelical Quakers and they are quite different. {/QUOTE]
Yes, Trinitarians sometimes do shout the 'THEY ARE NOT CHRISTIANS!' at Unitarian groups. Which is one reason why my friend and I did not mention his present 'Church' to anybody, but just kept chomping the biscuits and slurping that soup. :)

I'm so glad you've had a positive experience with a Rabbi! I hope you find a good synagogue to visit. Remember that there are toxic shuls out there as well as many spiritually healthy ones, so don't give up if the first Rabbi chases you away.
Rabbi Lionel Blue could quietly speak a short sentence in advice, and I have remembered every one, everafterwards.
I'm used to being chased, and harried etc........ but my friend could not ciope with that, which is why I'm taking him around so many venues in the hope that something clicks.

Besides, especially in the Orthodox tradition, Rabbis are SUPPOSED to chase people away. That sifts out the uncommitted from those who are truly drawn. So it's kind of their job. LOL quite different from evangelistic mindset, eh? :)
Ahh, yes. I understand that mindset as... 'You're with us, or you're against us!' ... or 'Are you in, or out!!?'
These approaches are a definite signal to me, a gift sent from Fate to tell me to get the h-ll out!!! :D

Sending up my prayers that you find where you are meant to be. If you have any questions regarding Judaism, just start a new thread on that, and I and the others will be happy to help you.
I'm a big fan of the OT Laws which were so necessary for a strong 'people' back in the day. Most are timeless. I have often argued for their value here on RF. But I'm a Deist, have been a Deist and see my Deity in everything. But I do love going to other folk's places....... and sharing with them in their tea, and the odd biscuit!! :D
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
When I taught theology I didn't teach my opinion.

I am prompted to ask....did you have one? Did you even agree with what you taught? Have you ever held one opinion about God that never changed?
Why are you so defensive?

Oh, that's a "classic", so I'll just leave it at that. :D

Classic what? You have addressed nothing. The fact is, the prophets foretold that only a remnant of Israel would be saved.....no comment eh?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I am prompted to ask....did you have one? Did you even agree with what you taught? Have you ever held one opinion about God that never change
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. When you're hired to teach whatever, you teach whatever and not necessarily what you personally believe in. Same when I taught political science as I wasn't hired to teach my political opinions.

To the last item, no.

Classic what? You have addressed nothing. The fact is, the prophets foretold that only a remnant of Israel would be saved.....no comment eh?
I'm not going to feed your willingness to judge others.

Why are you so defensive?
I'm not, but for some reason you keep reading things into what I post that I don't believe nor feel.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I doubt that the vast majority of Jews in eretz Israel knew anything about Jesus or knew enough about him to draw much of a conclusion. Those calling themselves "the Messiah" were basically a shekel-a-dozen back then, so I have doubts that many of them took him seriously. The Sanhedrin and the Temple priests, otoh, would likely take a much stronger interest because they knew that "agitators" could bring the wrath of the Romans down on all of them.

I believe they thought they knew something. He was from Nazareth not from Bethlehem but they just assumed that and never asked Him.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Sorry to hear that the Unitarian church isn't all he hoped it would be. But that just means the fun of continuing the journey of exploration. Quakers are wonderful people, though you should know that the denomination has gone through major splits, and there are liberal Quakers and evangelical Quakers and they are quite different.

I'm so glad you've had a positive experience with a Rabbi! I hope you find a good synagogue to visit. Remember that there are toxic shuls out there as well as many spiritually healthy ones, so don't give up if the first Rabbi chases you away.

Besides, especially in the Orthodox tradition, Rabbis are SUPPOSED to chase people away. That sifts out the uncommitted from those who are truly drawn. So it's kind of their job. LOL quite different from evangelistic mindset, eh? :)

Sending up my prayers that you find where you are meant to be. If you have any questions regarding Judaism, just start a new thread on that, and I and the others will be happy to help you.

I like this one for the final invitation: Rev: 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I am prompted to ask....did you have one? Did you even agree with what you taught? Have you ever held one opinion about God that never changed?
Why are you so defensive?



Classic what? You have addressed nothing. The fact is, the prophets foretold that only a remnant of Israel would be saved.....no comment eh?

I believe the problem is that they have to accept the sacrifice for sin that Jesus made on the cross. Otherwise they get tossed into outer space. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I believe the problem is that they have to accept the sacrifice for sin that Jesus made on the cross. Otherwise they get tossed into outer space. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
To me, that makes no sense, especially since the Bible says that the Jews were "chosen" and promised that the Covenant would be "forever" and "perpetual". Torah and the Sermon On the Mount both conclude that compassion for God and all people is what's paramount, and that posits more emphasis on whether one believes in God and actually does what God and Jesus taught, and it's not just Christians that do that.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
To me, that makes no sense, especially since the Bible says that the Jews were "chosen" and promised that the Covenant would be "forever" and "perpetual". Torah and the Sermon On the Mount both conclude that compassion for God and all people is what's paramount, and that posits more emphasis on whether one believes in God and actually does what God and Jesus taught, and it's not just Christians that do that.
I am reminded of the Centurion and the Gentile woman, born in Syrian Phoenicia. both received from God.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Oh for God's sake.

I'll tell you someone who isn't a Christian. Hillary Clinton. Oh sure, she may attend church but when you call a mass of people deplorable (literally means to disapprove of but it also carries connotation of to feel sad for, as in to pity), and irredeemable (someone forgot or never learned the concept of grace, you said quite literally that someone is beyond grace). That is, strictly speaking, not a church teaching. Jesus died on the cross for our sins. To smugly judge people worthy of pity and disapproval, and to say that even were they to repent they could never be saved is something religiously very wrong.

Just know you were the one who trollbaited politics, so let's give you sound beating, shall we? The UN has a map of 10 regions of the world. Revelation 17:12 and Daniel 7:24 both reference end times and how to recognize evil government. 10 kingdoms. End times prophecy also references a whore of Babylon, someone who is an epitome of the secular world. Many of the liberal hags in power qualify, but stand outs are Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi. Lastly, we see mention of a Mark of the Beast. If you haven't figured out, a cattle brand, a way of tracking ppl. RFID microchips or whatever comes after them.

All of this is globalist. So, you've chosen to be followers of AntiChrist, and it shows.

The Whore of Babylon is Israel, if you read scripture.. If not, you can make up anything.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
The Whore of Babylon is Israel, if you read scripture.. If not, you can make up anything.
Actually, no. The whore of babylon has been defined as corrupt government systems, the RC church, and other human and satanic entities. She is prominent in Revelation, therefore is prophecy.

For a Christian she is defined by the eschatology one embraces and interpretation of prophecy.

I personally have never heard of Israel defined as such, but there are a myriad of beliefs out there.

If one is in harmony with God based upon fundamental Christian precepts, prophetic interpretation is not that important.

We know that time will end, and God will prevail, thatś enough.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Actually, no. The whore of babylon has been defined as corrupt government systems, the RC church, and other human and satanic entities. She is prominent in Revelation, therefore is prophecy.

For a Christian she is defined by the eschatology one embraces and interpretation of prophecy.

I personally have never heard of Israel defined as such, but there are a myriad of beliefs out there.

If one is in harmony with God based upon fundamental Christian precepts, prophetic interpretation is not that important.

We know that time will end, and God will prevail, thatś enough.

There is NO question that the whore of Babylon is Israel.. The Bible makes that crystal clear. What are you trying to pull?
 
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