They Are Not Christians!

[Woberts]

It seems to me that Christians love to do this. Possibly because they don't want to be associated with the more... deplorable sects, eh?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Jesus gave us the criteria and he also did not suffer fools (in the religious sense) gladly. He exposed the hypocrisy of the Pharisees quite publicly on many occasions. (Matthew 23) Should we do less?

And here we have one of the great contradictions of the religion: "love thy neighbor" and even your enemies is the command, and yet you are shown by example that their judgment is in your hands. You would say that you judge out of love, that you are only trying to help them see the truth - yet some might say the same of their judgments toward you. None of it is "right." I can only see it as foolishness and hypocrisy.

Sadly, those who choose the wrong road don't actually live to regret it....

If your reference to "live" is what I think it is (i.e. a reference to the afterlife) then I am quite sure that you don't know that anyone will "live" to regret anything. You may believe, but you don't know. And yet you speak so arrogantly as if you do. I call folly.

 

[oldbadger]

I believe my church is struggling but probably more from the fact that it is a duck out of water. The one across the street has a capacity of 500 seats and had to go to two services. That church is what I would call a Charismatic church and the statistics show that is the type of church that is growing in the USA.

Thankyou for your post, Muffled. Yes, I expect that the nature of Christianity is moving ......... The most popular churches around London (as far as I know) are also charismatic, but I have to say that (for example) a Pentecostal Church service is amazing experience for anybody to behold.

Which Denomination or Creed does your Church support?
It would be very helpful if you would post your Creed for members to see, because they do vary quite a bit, and that is probably the cause of pointed fingers and inter-Church backbiting such as I watched yesterday.

 

[oldbadger]

Here in western Canada, every small town has its favorite coffee shop. Retired farmers and others on breaks meet up usually at 10 in the morning, take up a few tables, have a couple of cups each, talk politics, farming, weather, sports (hockey) and other such stuff. (Never religion) The regulars often return around 3 in the afternoon to do the whole thing over again. Even the smallest of towns seem to have one of these. You can tell where it is by looking for a bunch of half-ton trucks outside. I think OB would do well in one, even order a piece of pie, or a muffin. You want me to look for a cheap house somewhere you could rent for a few years?

Ha ha!
Yes, I guess I would indeed enjoy some cafe-talk with food treats and plenty of tea.

But Mrs Badger won't let me clear off to Canada, for sure. Anyways I suffer from White Finger or Reynolds condition (come on @Revoltingest, please spell it properly, I forget) so had better stay in temperate Kent, England.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ha ha!
Yes, I guess I would indeed enjoy some cafe-talk with food treats and plenty of tea.

But Mrs Badger won't let me clear off to Canada, for sure. Anyways I suffer from White Finger or Reynolds condition (come on @Revoltingest, please spell it properly, I forget) so had better stay in temperate Kent, England.

Raynaud's disease - Symptoms and causes

 

[oldbadger]

I might think, or suspect, that about some sects, but I would never dream of blurting such a thing out at a supposedly ecumenical gathering. How stupid can one get?

We have a priest at our local church who has been given the job of ecumenical outreach by the bishop. (He's a good singer too - I got to know him when he sang Christ and I sang the narrator in the Passion on Good Friday) What is notable about this man is his intellectual curiosity and openness to seeing the positive side in other interpretations, or even other religions. He is also the master of the short and snappy sermon - a really communicator and a natural teacher. It sounds as if your Germanic lady was not really cut out for the role. I wonder what idiot at "HQ" sent her! Was this the C of E?

Hello again exchemist.

Ha ha! Well, yes, but only a particularly individual branch of C of E I might post up its Creed sometime on this thread, but quite clearly it is not the C of E's Creed, imo.

I've met priests like this once before. One doesn't forget. In 1972 (!) alone, I visited a Baptist Church in Guildford, Surrey, England and sat quietly through a service. As I left the minister grabbed my hand, and pumping it furiously he insisted on coming to my home to meet myself and wife. Well, he did come one late evening, and sat down to talk with us, but of course my late wife was a Bahai and when she told him this he jumped up, calling out 'Oh No! Oh No!' and ran to leave the place. Having got clear of our side entrance door he ran the wrong way down into our dark garden and thrashed about furiously in the shrubs (and weeds) and I had to grab a torch and go to save him and see him on his way.

There is no place for extreme ministers and priests imo, and those who trash other churches really do show their ineptness for religious harmony in our World.

 

[Vinayaka]

Ha ha!
Yes, I guess I would indeed enjoy some cafe-talk with food treats and plenty of tea.

But Mrs Badger won't let me clear off to Canada, for sure. Anyways I suffer from White Finger or Reynolds condition (come on @Revoltingest, please spell it properly, I forget) so had better stay in temperate Kent, England.

I coached volleyball against a woman who had that condition. She wore mitts on the bench. inside school gymnasiums. At first glance it was odd, but one got used to it eventually. I presume cupping the tea in both hands helps.

It's good to have a place to go hang out with friends, sit around and gab. (Non serious gab, or chit-chat) We did it in the town pool hall when I was younger. Occasionally we'd play a game, but mostly it was just a hangout.

 

[exchemist]

Hello again exchemist.

Ha ha! Well, yes, but only a particularly individual branch of C of E I might post up its Creed sometime on this thread, but quite clearly it is not the C of E's Creed, imo.

I've met priests like this once before. One doesn't forget. In 1972 (!) alone, I visited a Baptist Church in Guildford, Surrey, England and sat quietly through a service. As I left the minister grabbed my hand, and pumping it furiously he insisted on coming to my home to meet myself and wife. Well, he did come one late evening, and sat down to talk with us, but of course my late wife was a Bahai and when she told him this he jumped up, calling out 'Oh No! Oh No!' and ran to leave the place. Having got clear of our side entrance door he ran the wrong way down into our dark garden and thrashed about furiously in the shrubs (and weeds) and I had to grab a torch and go to save him and see him on his way.

There is no place for extreme ministers and priests imo, and those who trash other churches really do show their ineptness for religious harmony in our World.

My impression is that some of the evangelical types are the most "exclusivist" and intolerant of all. Which is odd, when you think that evangelising means bringing the Gospel to others. Nowt so queer as folk, eh?

 

[oldbadger]

I coached volleyball against a woman who had that condition. She wore mitts on the bench. inside school gymnasiums. At first glance it was odd, but one got used to it eventually. I presume cupping the tea in both hands helps.

It's good to have a place to go hang out with friends, sit around and gab. (Non serious gab, or chit-chat) We did it in the town pool hall when I was younger. Occasionally we'd play a game, but mostly it was just a hangout.

Yep........ I wear ski-mittens for 6 months each year.
If I'm doing dirty work in the garden etc I take a bucket of warm water with me to keep my hands warm whilst I do stuff.

I used to visit a cafe-society all the time, but that was 40 years ago..... my work took me too far too often to be able to do that, and now that I'm retired I might like to return to something similar....... but it won't be with any extremists who jump across the table at me!

 

[Vinayaka]

Yep........ I wear ski-mittens for 6 months each year.
If I'm doing dirty work in the garden etc I take a bucket of warm water with me to keep my hands warm whilst I do stuff.

I used to visit a cafe-society all the time, but that was 40 years ago..... my work took me too far too often to be able to do that, and now that I'm retired I might like to return to something similar....... but it won't be with any extremists who jump across the table at me!

I don't have a place to go, nor really feel the need for it. Boss and grandkids keep me busy enough. Once we hit a retirement home, I bet I'll find a social group. I do have a Tamil friend who meets people of all walks each morning for coffee at a mall. It's really ingrained in the Sikhs too ... morning walk to the mall, no coffee just visits. In some warmer places it's an alley and a friendly game of cards. How's your bridge?

 

[oldbadger]

My impression is that some of the evangelical types are the most "exclusivist" and intolerant of all. Which is odd, when you think that evangelising means bringing the Gospel to others. Nowt so queer as folk, eh?

Absolutely!
And it's a sad day when anybody has to warn about Churches offering light refreshment and a chat. And the pressure to remain for lectures after that offensive behaviour really did need some strongly positive assertion in order to achieve the freedom of the street.

 

[oldbadger]

I don't have a place to go, nor really feel the need for it. Boss and grandkids keep me busy enough. Once we hit a retirement home, I bet I'll find a social group. I do have a Tamil friend who meets people of all walks each morning for coffee at a mall. It's really ingrained in the Sikhs too ... morning walk to the mall, no coffee just visits. In some warmer places it's an alley and a friendly game of cards.

Retirement homes can be great places for social sit downs and chats. We have Warden assisted flats and bedsits, Sheltered housing complexes, Retirements complexes, Nursing homes etc..... the Warden assisted flat complexes can be very beneficial for most residents. But since Mrs Badger is younger than me I guess I won't be experiencing those places until I'm dragged off in dementia to some place......... but in clear thinking moments I will run....... I will be a runner!

How's your bridge?

Rubbish, I'm afraid, and my chess is weak, about lowest chess club class, I would say. Sadly.

 

[nPeace]

Ah yes, the Kingdom Hall here is large, but now it can only hold half of the JWs in this area and so there are two meetings each Sunday.

No matter what a JW thinks, they would never start shouting out about other religions....... at worst they would continue to discuss in a quiet and controlled manner.

As far as I know, the JWs are the only Christian Faith around here with a strong following of youngsters.

Yes, this is the kind of atmosphere that appeals to young people, because some of them are so used to their parents shouting at them, they feel welcomed and appreciated, and cared for, in the presence of people with warm smiling faces.
That makes them happy.

I remember on two occasions, I was having a discussion with young ones, and one wrote a note expressing that I am happy and they were happy, Another wrote saying simply that I am their friend.
These experiences bring me joy to see how Jehovah - the happy God - makes us joyful as we listen to and obey him, and draw close to him, and in turn we am able to reflect that joy to others - especially the young, and they can feel appreciated.

Being in Jehovah's organization, among his happy people, is truly a blessing. i Timothy 1:11
(Psalm 33:12) Happy is the nation whose God is Jehovah, The people he has chosen as his own possession.

 

[Vinayaka]

Rubbish, I'm afraid, and my chess is weak, about lowest chess club class, I would say. Sadly.

Still better than mine, as I've never learned bridge. 500 was the card game my parents played ... simplified bridge they say. I'd play today if I had mates.

But back to the topic ... I run form from religious zealots too. At my sister's funeral, the pastor (no idea what denomination) got a little over the top. My atheist brother and I bonded some in our distaste for it, refusing to bow our heads in prayer. One advantage to that is you get to see who else is secretly with you. To me, tea is tea, charity is charity, attaching religion to it is just childish.

 

[Deeje]

And here we have one of the great contradictions of the religion: "love thy neighbor" and even your enemies is the command, and yet you are shown by example that their judgment is in your hands.

And here is where the main misunderstanding of this "judgment" issue is demonstrated.
Jesus did not hate or judge individuals but made it clear that the religious organization that was teaching those individuals was at fault. He warned these individuals about where that institution would take them if they continued to follow their lead. They then had opportunity to evaluate his information and act accordingly. Those who stuck with that institution ended up sharing guilt in the murder of Christ. (Matthew 27:25)

After Jesus' resurrection, the apostles, (buoyed by his encouragement,) went back to the people and appealed to them about the gravity of what they had done. Ironically, the death of Christ had opened the way to forgive repentant Jews (even their leaders) and thousands offered themselves for Christian baptism. (Acts 3:13-19; Acts 2:36-42) These formed congregations and continued the work that Jesus began. But sadly, as Jesus warned, their unity was not to last.

The Christian message has never been one of hatred toward any individuals, but it was very clear about what behaviours merit God's displeasure. The Bible is full of accounts where punishment was meted out in accord with God's justice. The Law was unambiguous about what activity merited its stated penalties. The one thing that stands out in those situations was that when repentance was demonstrated, punishment was either halted or withheld and mercy was extended. But if no repentance was seen, mercy was withheld....punishment was severe.

It seems to me that people mistake 'mercy' for 'sentiment'. God has never allowed sentiment to interfere with his execution of judgment. His justice is perfect. No one committed sin in ignorance of his law. Puppy dog eyes or crocodile tears just wouldn't cut it. God will accept nothing but heartfelt remorse, backed up by a determination not to repeat the sin. He accepts nothing less and cannot be fooled.

Pointing to Jesus as the gentle healer who hung out with sinners is a myth. Jesus was sent to the "lost sheep" in Israel, not to enjoy their company and to sanction their sins, but to show them the mercy that the hypocritical religious leaders had denied them. His message was intended to call them out of their hopeless situation and bring them into a 'fold' of similar repentant individuals who had left their sinful ways to become his disciples. They were to become "one flock, under one Shepherd". He showed these ones how forgiving and loving his Father was by exposing the religious system that caused them to become outcasts in the first place; he showed them how unloving and unmerciful these religious hypocrites were.

You would say that you judge out of love, that you are only trying to help them see the truth - yet some might say the same of their judgments toward you. None of it is "right." I can only see it as foolishness and hypocrisy.

People will see what they want to see.
The messages of religious organisations within Christendom are numerous and varied, and available for individuals to evaluate for themselves. To preach hate towards individuals is not what Christianity is all about. The Christian message is not ambiguous even though Christendom's various interpretations go all the way from "I am saved so I can do whatever I like"....to "step out of line and you will go straight to hell to be tortured forever".

Christ did not ever preach that way. He appealed to reason, not fear. He forced no one to accept his message but got to the heart of matters by comparisons and by using illustrations to get his message across. Sincere individuals got it and changed their course. (Romans 10:14) Many still do because the message is still being preached. (Matthew 24:14)

If your reference to "live" is what I think it is (i.e. a reference to the afterlife) then I am quite sure that you don't know that anyone will "live" to regret anything. You may believe, but you don't know. And yet you speak so arrogantly as if you do. I call folly.

No...that is not what I meant at all. No human is the judge of any other, equally sinful human.
My reference has to do with the belief that God's displeasure is somehow experienced after death. The Bible does not ever say that.

We have a choice to make about the God whose interests we serve. The Bible makes it clear that there are two "gods" vying for our worship. One is true and one is false. One promotes an unpopular truth, while the other promotes attractive falsehood. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

The unpopular truth appeals only to certain individuals, and Jesus said that "few" would choose the difficult path of truth, whilst the majority would choose the easy path, which leads to death....not to eternal torture in flames, but just to the termination of life. If the gift given to them is abused or unappreciated, it is simply withdrawn. (Matthew 7:13-14) That's as bad as it gets.

Our message helps people to decide.....just as it did in the first century. Everyone is free to ignore it......it wouldn't be the first time. (Matthew 24:37-39)

 

[joe1776]

"Heaven is a country club for our group only!"
"We are members of an elite group favored by God!"

If God really likes arrogant people, these claims could be true.

 

[Deeje]

Absolutely!
And it's a sad day when anybody has to warn about Churches offering light refreshment and a chat. And the pressure to remain for lectures after that offensive behaviour really did need some strongly positive assertion in order to achieve the freedom of the street.

I have heard of "rice Christians" OB but I guess "tea and chat Christians" do exist in most localities. We have an Anglican group here, euphemistically called "Hope Fellowship", where the 'hopeless and homeless' gather for free tea, coffee and cake.....but only after they have sat through 'the talk'. They sit there sweating it out, totally focussed on the free eats, not listening to a word that is said.
Some have suggested that the more appropriate name should be "Hopeless Fellowship" because these ones just keep turning up for the free eats. They have no intention of changing their ways.

I don't recall Jesus ever doing that. It is true that he fed the multitudes, but only after they had stayed for three days and put up with the physical hunger to receive the spiritual food. That is how Jesus knew they were genuine. It is also why we don't do the free eats in exchange for their company. If they don't want the spiritual food, they get nothing but the offer of a rich spiritual benefit....no cake.

If you have to bribe people to listen to you, then you are attracting the wrong people IMO.

 

[74x12]

I can't speak for the church you went to or the woman who spoke up that way. But the Bible forbids talking to the dead for a very good reason.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

That is one of many, many reasons why I left the JWs.

What are some others?

 

[oldbadger]

Still better than mine, as I've never learned bridge. 500 was the card game my parents played ... simplified bridge they say. I'd play today if I had mates.

I challenge my chess spp each day, once, and get slaughtered embarrassingly, once.
I play microsoft Hearts.

But back to the topic ... I run form from religious zealots too. At my sister's funeral, the pastor (no idea what denomination) got a little over the top. My atheist brother and I bonded some in our distaste for it, refusing to bow our heads in prayer. One advantage to that is you get to see who else is secretly with you. To me, tea is tea, charity is charity, attaching religion to it is just childish.

Oh, some priests can be totally careless about folk's feelings at such delicate time as funerals, imo.
A long time ago a retired Bahai couple lost their son to lightening-speed-MS he leaving a Christian wife and baby behind, a very sad occasion. The Bahai parents asked the Christian wife if a Bahai prayer could be read at the service which a Christian priest would take. The young wife agreed to ask, but the priest refused, because he thought that such a prayer would be 'inappropriate'.

Such priests don't deserve a congregation today, and around here I don't think they get one, only the most friendly and Universal priests deserve to get followings, imo.