Does the Bible mention Islam?

[Dawnofhope]

I can also provide an exegesis of Revelation based on the Teachings of
Christ Jesus in Revelation. Seeing that the book of Revelation was given by Christ Jesus.

Go ahead. Who is the woman in Revelation 12:1-2?

As for us Christians, we have some disagreements, But what our faith is built on we come in agreement on.

There is no agreement in Christianity. There's schism and division though.

Seeing you made mention-->( If you want to provide sensible and respectful commentary on the book of Revelation that refutes Islam being mentioned that’s fine)
Just so that you know, Christ Jesus does mention Islam in the book of Revelation.
But instead of me going into it, so that you can not say I was insulting.
You wouldn't be able to handle what Christ Jesus has to say about Islam in Revelation.
This is as far as I am going and to say.

Find a way of expressing yourself and views that respects the rules of the RF forum.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Go ahead. Who is the woman in Revelation 12:1-2?



There is no agreement in Christianity. There's schism and division though.



Find a way of expressing yourself and views that respects the rules of the RF forum.

You should find a way to respect the rules of RF and not accuse someone of insulting, unto which they did not insult.
Like I said, there is no where in all those
10 posts that we talk, that I insulted anyone.
All I did is answer your questions.

As for who's the woman in
Revelation 12:1-2,
The 12 stars represents the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 disciples of Jesus Christ.

Had you read verse 5
Revelation 12:5--"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne"

This woman represents Israel and the child represents Christ Jesus as being born in Israel.


(There is no agreement in Christianity. There's schism and division though.)

Why do you keep insulting my religion.
You should respect RF rules.

We as Christians all agree that Christ Jesus is the Son of God and Christ Jesus is God himself.
But the question is, how is Christ Jesus both the Son of God and God himself. How does this work.
How can Christ Jesus can be God, but yet be the Son of God?

 

[Dawnofhope]

As for who's the woman in
Revelation 12:1-2,
The 12 stars represents the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 disciples of Jesus Christ.

The book of revelation is a prophetic book of course not a history book. The 12 tribes of Israel and the twelve disciples of Christ are historic. How do you envisage this being relevant to the future? How about the woman being clothed in the moon and star? What do they represent?

Had you read verse 5
Revelation 12:5--"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne"

This woman represents Israel in which Christ Jesus was born.

Perhaps we can agree that these verses are Messianic and about the future. So do you see the Return of Christ coming from Israel?

I'll desist from providing a Baha'i interpretation for now unless you ask for it. I'm happy to provide it any time.

(There is no agreement in Christianity. There's schism and division though.)

Why do you keep insulting my religion.
You should respect RF rules.

Its simply historic fact. Don't take it personally. You can not claim that Christianity is united but few would agree. How much bloodshed has there been in the name of you religion? Ironically its been Christians that have killed more Christians than anyone else has.

Do we need to discuss the history of Christianity?

Schism - Wikipedia

We as Christians all agree that Christ Jesus is the Son of God and Christ Jesus is God himself.
But the question is, how is Christ Jesus both the Son of God and God himself. How does this work.
How can Christ Jesus can be God, but yet be the Son of God?

To reconcile these beliefs the Christian church developed the Nicene Creed and the doctrine of the Trinty. So while I agree that most Christians believe in the the doctrine of the Trinity some don't.

Nontrinitarianism - Wikipedia

In fact the belief in the Divinity of Christ was a major theological division early on in Christianities history with Arianism. When the Emporer Constantine became a Christian He tried to resolve the matter with the first council of Nicea in 325 AD. Arianism remained a problematic division in the Christin Church for a few centuries after this council.

Are you OK about this discussion?

 

[Faithofchristian]

The book of revelation is a prophetic book of course not a history book. The 12 tribes of Israel and the twelve disciples of Christ are historic. How do you envisage this being relevant to the future? How about the woman being clothed in the moon and star? What do they represent?



Perhaps we can agree that these verses are Messianic and about the future. So do you see the Return of Christ coming from Israel?

I'll desist from providing a Baha'i interpretation for now unless you ask for it. I'm happy to provide it any time.



Its simply historic fact. Don't take it personally. You can not claim that Christianity is united but few would agree. How much bloodshed has there been in the name of you religion? Ironically its been Christians that have killed more Christians than anyone else has.

Do we need to discuss the history of Christianity?

Schism - Wikipedia



To reconcile these beliefs the Christian church developed the Nicene Creed and the doctrine of the Trinty. So while I agree that most Christians believe in the the doctrine of the Trinity some don't.

Nontrinitarianism - Wikipedia

In fact the belief in the Divinity of Christ was a major theological division early on in Christianities history with Arianism. When the Emporer Constantine became a Christian He tried to resolve the matter with the first council of Nicea in 325 AD. Arianism remained a problematic division in the Christin Church for a few centuries after this council.

Are you OK about this discussion?

As for -->( The book of revelation is a prophetic book of course not a history book. The 12 tribes of Israel and the twelve disciples of Christ are historic. How do you envisage this being relevant to the future? How about the woman being clothed in the moon and star? What do they represent?

Had you read Revelation 12:1-5, you would find this woman all being the same woman, represents Israel. The 12 stars represents the 12 tribes of Israel.

How does this fit into the future, when Christ Jesus returns, the 12 tribes of Israel are gathered back to Christ Jesus.
This is found in Revelation 7:1-8,

And then in Verse 9, a great multitude of people, which no man could number, that have accepted Christ Jesus will stand before the Throne and before the Lamb,
The Lamb represents Christ Jesus as the Lamb of God.
But yet Christ Jesus is God, how does this work.
How can Christ Jesus be the Lamb of God but yet be God himself.
How does this work?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I agree the exact words ‘Loving One’ are not in the Quran. However the nature of Divine Love has many attributes that are included in the Quran such as forgiveness, affection and compassion.

And ask forgiveness of your Lord and then repent to Him. Indeed, my Lord is Merciful and Affectionate." Qur’an 11:90

And He is the Forgiving, the Affectionate, Qur’an 85:14

In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.
The Compassionate.
Qur’an 55:1

Jesus Christ loved more than all the rest, dying a horrible death by torture, even for His enemies, forgiving them from the cross. Having read about 2/3 of the Noble Qu'ran, I can say there is no love of Allah to compare. Indeed, Allah hates every kind of unbeliever and infidel, and may not even accept devout Muslims to eternal life.

 

[BilliardsBall]

If Christ saved the world then why is it in such a mess and Christianity so divided?

Human sin. Jesus died to take the penalty of sin, death, from believers. Believers have eternal life in a better world.

 

[BilliardsBall]

That is true. G-d did not have a son like you and I would have a son. Jesus is the spiritual ‘Son of God’ as the gospel affirms. The Holy Quran affirms G-d did not have a physical son.

In the sense that Jesus revealed the Gospel and perfectly reflected His Father’s attributes then the Divinity of Christ is affirmed. The Manifestations of God are like perfect mirrors reflecting the light of G-d’s Teachings. However the mirror is not the sun so in that sense not God incarnate as the Quran affirms.

I understand, but:

1) Jesus isn't God's mirror, but God
2) Jesus wasn't a spirit only, but was born of a woman, His flesh was crucified. Indeed, the Bible says part of the antichrist spirit is to deny Jesus was Christ IN THE FLESH
3) Another denial warned of in the scriptures--denying Jesus's divinity--after all, His crucifixion was requested of Pilate based on Jesus's statements that He is the I AM and His Kingdom is not of the world

 

[BilliardsBall]

So you know Greek? Or not?

The Quran says in 5:47 that the People of the Gospel should Judge with the Gospel. Why would God ask us to do something if it isn't possible? The Quran in 5:68 says that we should uphold the Tora and the Gospel, else we have no bases, why would God tell us to uphold something which isn't there?!

God managed to protect the Tora for thousands of years. God managed to protect the Psalms for thousands of years. God managed to protect the Gospel for hundreds of years, and confirmed it at the time of Muhammad. God confirmed both the Tora and the Gospel, by name, that they are there, a Guidance and a Light, that we should Judge with it, that we should Uphold them.

Don't waste your time with translations if you want to make claims.
Go and get a copy of the Greek Gospel in the Greek Church, that's the most original that we have. And go get a copy of the Hebrew Tora and Psalms in the Hebrew Synagogue, those are the most original we have. Just like someone else would have to go to the Arabic Mosque to get a copy of the most original Quran in Arabic that we have.

I still own my Soncino Tanakh, awarded to me on the occasion of my Bar Mitzvah. I have a year of ancient Greek at university.

I'm aware that the Qu'ran says two logically opposed statements:

1) Jews and Christians should follow the Torah and Gospels
2) Jews and Christians mislead others and corrupted the Torah and Gospels

Thus, the questions are begged:

1) Why does the Qu'ran make self-contradictory statements like the above?
2) Why if Allah is all-powerful, all-knowing, can he keep the Qu'ran perfect in Heaven, but couldn't keep the Torah and Gospels perfect?

 

[1213]

...Now if you use people to judge a Messenger from God, then you likewise judge Jesus the Christ, as christianity has had many a sorry event made of man in the name of Christ.
...

If people do bad things, because Jesus says they should do bad things, then it is also from the teachings. This leads to the question, do Muslims obey Mohammed, or are they making up things.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If people do bad things, because Jesus says they should do bad things, then it is also from the teachings. This leads to the question, do Muslims obey Mohammed, or are they making up things.

That is for you to justly decide. God has given us free will to make those judgements. There are questions we can ask ourselves if we desire to be a good judge.

Do I have pre conceived ideas about the case?
Do I want to find the truth about what happened?
Do I have predudices that would blind my search for the truth?

Thus my search to date found no bad things taught by Muhammad and yes many muslims have made stuff up just as the christains also have done. When and where Muhammad gave his Message from God, required stronger laws based in Justice. This is the meaning of Revelation when the Two Witnesses (Muhammad and Ali) are clothed in sackcloth, which is old cloths. It means the Faith of Muhammad would be more like the Jewish Faith, based in strong and just Laws, just as the age required. This as predicted was to last 1260 years and did.

The day foretold of Christ is the day we live in, Revelation has unfolded.

Regards Tony

 

[W3bcrowf3r]

I still own my Soncino Tanakh, awarded to me on the occasion of my Bar Mitzvah. I have a year of ancient Greek at university.

I'm aware that the Qu'ran says two logically opposed statements:

1) Jews and Christians should follow the Torah and Gospels
2) Jews and Christians mislead others and corrupted the Torah and Gospels

Thus, the questions are begged:

1) Why does the Qu'ran make self-contradictory statements like the above?
2) Why if Allah is all-powerful, all-knowing, can he keep the Qu'ran perfect in Heaven, but couldn't keep the Torah and Gospels perfect?

Are you reading the Arabic Quran or what? It doesn't say that.., it says that the people of the Book should uphold the Tora and the Gospel. And that the people of the Gospel should judge with the Gospel. The Quran teaches to believe in the Books and the Prophets.

It's not my problem that the majority of the 'Muslims' do not do that..

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I still own my Soncino Tanakh, awarded to me on the occasion of my Bar Mitzvah. I have a year of ancient Greek at university.

I'm aware that the Qu'ran says two logically opposed statements:

1) Jews and Christians should follow the Torah and Gospels
2) Jews and Christians mislead others and corrupted the Torah and Gospels

Thus, the questions are begged:

1) Why does the Qu'ran make self-contradictory statements like the above?
2) Why if Allah is all-powerful, all-knowing, can he keep the Qu'ran perfect in Heaven, but couldn't keep the Torah and Gospels perfect?

All the statements of Quran regarding corruption of Gospel or Torah, are with regards to corruption in interpretations, Not the Texts of the Holy Books.
There is a general misunderstanding about this among the Muslims.

 

[Faithofchristian]

To answer the Thread ( Does the bible mention Islam)
Yes it does in the book of Revelation. But however Islam will not like what Christ Jesus has revealed about Islam.

 

[W3bcrowf3r]

All the statements of Quran regarding corruption of Gospel or Torah, are with regards to corruption in interpretations, Not the Texts of the Holy Books.
There is a general misunderstanding about this among the Muslims.

Exactly, the Quran actually tells the people of the Book to uphold the Tora and the Gospel. It even clearly says ' people of the Gospel, judge with the Gospel '. Clearer then that can't be. It's just that the mainstream muslims do not read the Quran and are even afraid to interpret it. 'Scholars' even tell them that they can't understand the Quran, and that they should follow the understanding of the 'scholars'.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Jesus Christ loved more than all the rest, dying a horrible death by torture, even for His enemies, forgiving them from the cross. Having read about 2/3 of the Noble Qu'ran, I can say there is no love of Allah to compare. Indeed, Allah hates every kind of unbeliever and infidel, and may not even accept devout Muslims to eternal life.

You are simply taking verses of the Quran out of context. The Quraysh tribe who were pagans relentlessly tried to destroy Muhammad and His followers. If you apply your standard to Muhammad, then we should apply the same standard to the Yahweh who orders the killing of the Canaanites in the book of Joshua.

Human sin. Jesus died to take the penalty of sin, death, from believers. Believers have eternal life in a better world.

Not true. Not everyone who declares allegiance to Jesus goes to heaven (Matthew 25:31-46).

1) Jesus isn't God's mirror, but God

Jesus is the image of G-d.

Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Jesus is spiritual incarnation of G-d not physical

Is Jesus God incarnate?

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

1 KIng 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

2) Jesus wasn't a spirit only, but was born of a woman, His flesh was crucified. Indeed, the Bible says part of the antichrist spirit is to deny Jesus was Christ IN THE FLESH

This was probably an argument against gnosticism where some believe Jesus to be a spirit and not have a physical body.

Gnosticism - Wikipedia

 

[W3bcrowf3r]

You are simply taking verses of the Quran out of context. The Quraysh tribe who were pagans relentlessly tried to destroy Muhammad and His followers. If you apply your standard to Muhammad, then we should apply the same standard to the Yahweh who orders the killing of the Canaanites in the book of Joshua.



Not true. Not everyone who declares allegiance to Jesus goes to heaven (Matthew 25:31-46).



Jesus is the image of G-d.

Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Jesus is spiritual incarnation of G-d not physical

Is Jesus God incarnate?

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

1 KIng 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.



This was probably an argument against gnosticism where some believe Jesus to be a spirit and not have a physical body.

Gnosticism - Wikipedia

The Trinity was created by the Catholics/Orthodox at the council of Nicea. And even up until this day they are injecting the Trinity in the translations. But if you know Greek, and if you read the Gopsel which can be found in the Greek Church, you will find out that only YHVH the Father is God, and that Jesus the Son, Christ, isn't God.

 

[Dawnofhope]

As for -->( The book of revelation is a prophetic book of course not a history book. The 12 tribes of Israel and the twelve disciples of Christ are historic. How do you envisage this being relevant to the future? How about the woman being clothed in the moon and star? What do they represent?

Had you read Revelation 12:1-5, you would find this woman all being the same woman, represents Israel. The 12 stars represents the 12 tribes of Israel.

How does this fit into the future, when Christ Jesus returns, the 12 tribes of Israel are gathered back to Christ Jesus.
This is found in Revelation 7:1-8,

A better explanation is the use of the tribes of Israel tosymbolise the tribes of the earth. Tribalism within Israel belongs to a bygone era. It makes no sense to think about Israel as being 12 tribes anymore.

The woman is clothed with the stars and moon is likely a refernce to the Ottoman Empire.

This was adopted in 1844, the year the Bab declared.

Flags of the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia

And then in Verse 9, a great multitude of people, which no man could number, that have accepted Christ Jesus will stand before the Throne and before the Lamb,
The Lamb represents Christ Jesus as the Lamb of God.
But yet Christ Jesus is God, how does this work.
How can Christ Jesus be the Lamb of God but yet be God himself.
How does this work?

The Lamb of G-d is a Messianic reference.

Lamb of God - Wikipedia

It occurs frequently in the book of Revelation in regards the returned Christ.

The Returned Christ will have a new name.

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Revelation 3:12

You need to understand how Christ is both G-d and not G-d.

Is Jesus God incarnate?

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

1 KIng 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Scripture seems to imply that Jesus can not possibly be God incarnate.

Perhaps it would be better to think of Jesus as being a perfect image or reflection of Gods' divine attributes?

Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The Trinity was created by the Catholics/Orthodox at the council of Nicea. And even up until this day they are injecting the Trinity in the translations. But if you know Greek, and if you read the Gopsel which can be found in the Greek Church, you will find out that only YHVH the Father is God, and that Jesus the Son, Christ, isn't God.

Thanks for that. Unfortunately most Christians treat the Nicene Creed as having the same authority as the Bible itself. You and I know it doesn't and its a man made doctrine that Muhammad corrected. I therefore base my arguments on the Biblical verses themselves to demonstrate the contradiction. Regardless most Christians will fail to see it no matter what is said and quoting many verses from the bible highlighting the contradictions of the trinity.

 

[W3bcrowf3r]

Thanks for that. Unfortunately most Christians treat the Nicene Creed as having the same authority as the Bible itself. You and I know it doesn't and its a man made doctrine that Muhammad corrected. I therefore base my arguments on the Biblical verses themselves to demonstrate the contradiction. Regardless most Christians will fail to see it no matter what is said and quoting many verses from the bible highlighting the contradictions of the trinity.

I am learning Greek, and when i check the Greek New Testament, the one uphold by the Greek Church, i see how these trinitarians are injecting the trinity in their translations.

But it makes me wonder why they invented the Trinity? Why would they do such a thing?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I am learning Greek, and when i check the Greek New Testament, the one uphold by the Greek Church, i see how these trinitarians are injecting the trinity in their translations.

But it makes me wonder why they invented the Trinity? Why would they do such a thing?

Arianism was threatening the create a schism in the Christian church. It was an attempt to eradicate Arius's influence and to unify the church by providing answers to the questions that had been troubling many of the early Christians.

Arianism - Wikipedia

When the emperor Constantine converted to Christianity He made his business to preside over the first council of Nidea in 325 AD.

First Council of Nicaea - Wikipedia