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Thousand oaks shooting

Curious George

Veteran Member
Yes. Dreadful. They seem to go on and on.....


Did the murderer get the gun illegally?


If guns were as easily available in the UK as in 'strict' California, we would be experiencing similar incident frequencies over here.
You think so, I am less certain. Surely the use of guns in suicide, which account for the majority of gun deaths, would bring the gun deaths similar. But what makes you think the incidence mass killings with guns would be similar?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
You think so, I am less certain. Surely the use of guns in suicide, which account for the majority of gun deaths, would bring the gun deaths similar. But what makes you think the incidence mass killings with guns would be similar?

......... because the UK is full of human beings, just like the US is.

And whilst any kind of suicide is very sad and bad, why do you rush to suicide rates in some strange comparison when in conversation about gun murders? You might just as well compare gun murders with airline crash deaths.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Yes, because people have access to mass murder weapons.

People can not actually murder in masses outside of serial killing which requires finesse and secrecy.

US likes to blame mental illness, as if US is the only nation with severe mental illness.

Do we need to start another debate as to how other countries are much better with mass murder statistics compared to US?

One might argue, why California or Chicago does so poorly even with its strict laws, but the answer is simple. If it cant control its borders as to how weapons enter the legislated areas, then those laws are futile. However, countries that can control its borders and control that actual weapons within have much better success at doing so.
Funny when you consider that we've had weapons throughout our entire history and its this generation that chose to be psychopathic.

I'm not against nerfing down firearms, Yet it has more to do with the persons disposition and mentality which goes far beyond the desired tool of his or her choice.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I have no idea...really....
I wreck my brain but I can't figure out why

800px-Children_and_teen_gun_death_rate.svg.png
Where is Russia and China?
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
......... because the UK is full of human beings, just like the US is.

And whilst any kind of suicide is very sad and bad, why do you rush to suicide rates in some strange comparison when in conversation about gun murders? You might just as well compare gun murders with airline crash deaths.
Because usually people talk about gun deaths. Those include suicide. I am not rushing to that.

Regarding humanity, I am not so sure I share your conviction that humanity inherently carries with it the will to mass murder.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
When I see that i think wow, only a couple more per 100k than places that have virtually outlawed guns, and that includes any gun deaths and only gun deaths.
But when the population is 325m (?) a small (ie 3 times+) makes a big diference as you are multiplying by 3000+
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I think it's skewed. Not saying the quantity of available firearms is a factor, but I would also love to see the demographics of those countries alongside those statistics that bring about such "peace". Are they totalitarian regimes, socialist, or theocratic?

Yeah you can eliminate guns and get better statistics that look good and pretty, and call it an answer to the problem, but at what cost to people's personal freedom's and rights I wonder?

It seems hypocritical to me when countries try to take guns from the citizenry, yet as a government themselves willingly stockpile arms to the sky on the world stage.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't think it's any one reason. A bit of idolizing vigilantes meting out justice as they see it is baked into our culture. From our romantic idea of cowboys to superheros. And you can see it in everything from the fantasy of 'the good guy with the gun' to 'I will stop a tyrannical government with my handgun.' A bit of this particular administration promoting an environment where empathy is through the floor. A bit of paranoia fueling 'I have to do something to protect myself from [X, which usually happens to be a minority]' Where everyone is just scared of everyone else and calling that 'freedom.'
..And our lack of any actual effective federal, national changes towards gun regulation. Making local regulation easy to bypass. Every time we have a shooting..
...Well, I'll let the Thousand Oaks shooter say it:
"I hope people call me insane... (laughing emojis).. wouldn't that just be a big ball of irony? Yeah.. I'm insane, but the only thing you people do after these shootings is 'hopes and prayers'.. or 'keep you in my thoughts'... every time... and wonder why these keep happening..."
Ian David Long: What we know about the gunman in the Thousand Oaks bar shooting - CNN
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
Funny when you consider that we've had weapons throughout our entire history and its this generation that chose to be psychopathic.

I'm not against nerfing down firearms, Yet it has more to do with the persons disposition and mentality which goes far beyond the desired tool of his or her choice.

Again, you think Americans are more psycho than other nations?

What if???? You are correct that people are more "psycho" than previously? This should hold true for other nations beyond US, right? So, possibly the true solution is to still prevent people from obtaining guns. The data among nations that have banned guns has shown drastic improvement.

It's just another gun debate because of another massacre. I've gone through all my rhetoric from all the previous massacres. This will be no different.

You and other conservatives will continue to blame mental illness which is plausible but other nations have shown that is irrelevant given how they've dealt with it.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Sure. Nevertheless it is only a couple more per 100k. I am not so sure I see your point.
Let's say it is 2 per 100k (The comaprison with most countries is more than that) more deaths by gun.

The population of the USA is (IIRC) about 325,000,000. - therefore by my maths that is 6,500 more people killed by guns than if your rate was down with the likes of the UK.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I don't think it's any one reason. A bit of idolizing vigilantes meting out justice as they see it is baked into our culture. From our romantic idea of cowboys to superheros. And you can see it in everything from the fantasy of 'the good guy with the gun' to 'I will stop a tyrannical government with my handgun.' A bit of this particular administration promoting an environment where empathy is through the floor. A bit of paranoia fueling 'I have to do something to protect myself from [X, which usually happens to be a minority]' Where everyone is just scared of everyone else and calling that 'freedom.'
..And our lack of any actual effective federal, national changes towards gun regulation. Making local regulation easy to bypass. Every time we have a shooting..
...Well, I'll let the Thousand Oaks shooter say it:

Ian David Long: What we know about the gunman in the Thousand Oaks bar shooting - CNN
I think this does acknowledge many of the issues, i think ease of access to guns certainly contributes as well. But I think there might still be more.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Let's say it is 2 per 100k (The comaprison with most countries is more than that) more deaths by gun.

The population of the USA is (IIRC) about 325,000,000. - therefore by my maths that is 6,500 more people killed by guns than if your rate was down with the likes of the UK.
I agree that there would be less gun homocides if gun laws were similar to other countries. I do not necessarily agree that there would be substantially less homicides.

Generally, a person who wants to kill can find a way to kill. Certainly, there would be less murders based on the removal of more guns as guns increase the likelihood of death and decrease the effort needed to effect death.

But how much is this? How did the uk homicide rate compare by year before and after uk gun restriction? Did gun restriction really make that much of a difference?
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree that there would be less gun homocides if gun laws were similar to other countries. I do not necessarily agree that there would be substantially less homicides.

Generally, a person who wants to kill can find a way to kill. Certainly, there would be less murders based on the removal of more guns as guns increase the likelihood of death and decrease the effort needed to effect death.

But how much is this? How did the uk homicide rate compare by year before and after uk gun restriction? Did gun restriction really make that much of a difference?
Edit: Scratch that, I think I may have misunderstood.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Homicide rate statistics wouldn't get you the number you're looking for, I think. If (and this is just an example) someone killed 24 people with a gun before and another person killed two people with a knife after, the homicide rate would be two, but the difference in lives lost would be 22.
I think you are mistaken. Each murder is one count of homicide.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Edit: Scratch that, I think I may have misunderstood.
Yeah, it still isn't the point at which I am driving. It is simply a pro-gun/anti-gun tangent that perhaps needs addressimg before we all are discussing the meat of the topic, what is it that is spawning all these mass murderers.
 
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