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Why do Christians side with Jews more than Muslims?

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
You are an example of how you can misquote different people.
Misquote? Did I not use the words you, yourself, or people you were referring to did? All I know is, you nay-say anyone with an opinion counter to your own (or refuse to even respond to - saying "I already refuted you" - a hallmark statement of someone who knows they can't actually back up their words and is looking to simply dodge the situation - which I highly suspect is true), and the moment someone backed you up by calling Christians "tantrum throwing babies" you thanked them like they had just solved world hunger.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I admit I could be quite wrong, but I can't help but think a large part of the problem as outlined in the OP is because Jesus, as described in Christianity, and Jesus as described by Islam, are often so radically different that they may as well be talking about two completely different individuals. Tales that had fallen into disrepute were openly flogged in Islam as being the genuine article. (Ex. Jesus addressing a crowd as a day's old infant).

The other weird bit is even with Muslim fawning over Jesus and holding him 2nd to Muhammad himself confuses a lot of Christians. The point is that Muslims are not fawning over the Christian Jesus, they are fawning over the Muslim version of Jesus. Amusingly, the Muslim Jesus arose out of the Arab landscape almost 600 years after the fact and many miles from the Holy Land and had no direct connection, whatsoever... SO, there are major credibility issues based on existing accepted dogma.

Otoh, Christians and Jews had had a relationship all the while over this 600 years period and were, more or less, at ease with each other under the Roman occupation forces. The other thing is that virtually all Christians were former Jews who still had connections to the Jewish community.

Then, this guy appears, hundreds of years later and hundreds of miles from Jerusalem/Holy land and starts broadcasting his strange (at the time) new message that found few takers for the first decade of his "prophethood".

I think, part of the problem here, is that from both the Christian and the Jewish viewpoints a lot of what Muhammad was saying was simply grated against their accepted dogma and so, at first, no one took him seriously. They probably thought he had blown a bolt out under the desert sun and it was only after he began to attract followers that that feeling began to change to alarm.

In answer to the question in the OP asking why Christians are more supportive of Jews than Muslims I would ask why one would expect them to? They had no history with the Muslims until the Muslims came a callin'... with the first Islamic expansions which seized formerly Christian held lands. Those were not especially friendly acts that would have nurtured trust.
What's interesting is that Church Fathers contemporaneous to the initial Islamic expansions into Byzantine territory thought of Islam as some weird version of Arianism or other kinds of Christian heresy. My guess is they thought that eventually the Arabs would convert to Orthodoxy just as the Goths had before.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
This thread is about theology
I think that is the problem you're having here. The conflict you're referring to isn't really rooted in theology, it's mostly about political culture.

Judaism is predominantly defensive. The ancient Israelites were surrounded by much more powerful neighbors. Like the Assyrians and Chaldeans and Egyptians.
Christianity and Islam were both primarily shaped by warlords and their followers, Constantine and Muhammad et al. They were designed as instruments of domination. Weapons for empire building.

And they worked superbly. Although EuroChristian culture invented better seafaring technology and weaponized gunpowder first, which enabled them to go on the global looting and pillaging spree known as EuroColonialism.

So they are now the dominant culture on the planet.

They generally feel about Islam the way Trump feels about Clinton. And they feel about Judaism about the way Clinton feels about Sanders.
Tom
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Not all Scripture's requires interpretation.
As the book of Revelation, God has already given the interpretation of the book of Revelation himself, everything in Revelation God has given what each and everything is, is to be found within Revelation.
Er, right.

That response, you see, illustrates quite well why I'm not really interested in your opinions on Islam - or much else, in fact.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I by no means meant to imply that all hasidic Jews do this, but it does happen. I know you, Tumah; you're a good man. :)
I am a good man.

Also, you probably don't mean hasidic, but haredi. I reckon you couldn't tell the difference between a hassidic and non-hasidic haredi, but you can maybe tell the difference between a haredi and non-haredi.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I am a good man.

Also, you probably don't mean hasidic, but haredi. I reckon you couldn't tell the difference between a hassidic and non-hasidic haredi, but you can maybe tell the difference between a haredi and non-haredi.
Yeah, I'll be the first to admit that I know basically nothing about the various groups within Judaism. I know of Reform, Conservative and Orthodox, and I know the Orthodox have a lot of different groups within that, and one of them is called Hasidic, but that's about as far as my knowledge base goes. And then there's the Karaites, but we don't talk about the Karaites.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Ok let’s start over.

Jews believe in one indivisible deity the maker of heaven and earth. Muslims believe in one indivisible deity. Most religious Jews would say they have more in common with Muslims than Christians so with that being said, why do Christians support people that don’t believe in their faith theologically?
With that in mind, why should Christians support either one? In traditional Christian teaching, both Islam and Judaism are false religions and one must believe in Christ, be Baptized, etc. to be saved. So both Jews and Muslims would be in the same boat as any other non-believer. So you might as well ask why Christians don't support Hindus or people who practice witchcraft. It's all the same in view of the Gospel - false religions. It doesn't mean that you can't respect people as human beings, but you can also disagree with their religion and think yours is the right one. There are civil and polite ways to do this. You can support people as himan beings but not endorse or support their religion. Honestly, I wish the churches would speak plainly on this issue and stop being so spineless and PC.

As for Zionism, I don't think Christians have any business supporting Zionism. It has nothing to do with them. It may also actually be sinful as the teaching is that God scattered them the land of Israel as a punishment and only God can give that land back to them. Regardless, Christians should support their brothers and sisters in Christ foremost and that includes Palestinian Christians.
 
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Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I'm sorry, I thought you were "sincerely asking" Christians why we preferred to side with Jews rather than Muslims. I guess that wasn't the point of the thread after all, and asking Christians what our opinions on the matter are was a pointless exercise?

It began as a sincere question but if immediately people commenting about what Muslims do instead of answer the OP itself then my response has to liken the responses that I receive. These are garbage answers because people aren't addressing what I'm writing in my original position. I'm clearly talking about the theological differences that exist between Christianity and Judaism and the Judaic opinion on Christian theology. I made this clear in the beginning! I never mentioned anything about the historical position between Islam and Christianity this is not what its about I clearly stated the fundamental differences and opinions of Jews concering Christianity. I even stated that it is permissible for Jews to pray in a mosque and not a church I made that clear.

Considering the Christian position concerning the deity Allah, Christians ought to wonder why a Jew is praying in an environment in the home of a supposed moon-god deity as some Christians had professed Allah is. In the "Epistle to Yemen" the Jewish philosopher Maimonides wrote about this.

Yes, in large part because Muslims have slowly been extirpating us from our Middle Eastern heartlands for the last 1400 years.

Which Muslims? Which government? What does this have to do with what I originally said that specifically was addressing the theology between all three?

You mean wars fought with the original purpose to regain Byzantine territory which Western nobles instead used to further their political ambitions, where the Crusaders also slaughtered many Christians and sacked Christian cities? Or the Fourth Crusade that saw the sacking of Constantinople and the permanent crippling of the Byzantine Empire? What about them?

I'm specifically talking about the 10,000 Franks that capture Jerusalem killing Muslims and Jews (innocent ones at that).

I don't see what Muslim infighting has to do with the systemic, centuries-long oppression of Christians.

But the object of the thread is to not discuss history because we can discuss the Crusades in depth elsewhere, but to answer your question, I'm referring to several of the Muslim dynasties that had different agendas. You're speaking as if in the entire history of Islam Christians were persecuted. Sure, there were Caliphs that did very bad things. Sure, there were Muslims that have terrorized other people but there are also good aspects of history that you are conveniently forgetting just as you conveniently aren't addressing the theological issue at hand. Judaic philosophical thought, holds you faith as Avodah Zara. Christianity is tri-monotheism and heretical according to the Jewish opinion and holds Islam more monotheistic than Christianity why can't you address that issue?

Why is that so hard because I'm right? Would you like proof?

"For Maimonides, Christianity and Islam are related to Judaism. Maimonides's practical view of Christianity was usually assumed to be negative and he regarded Christianity as a form of proscribed polytheism, even for gentiles. In his code of Jewish law, Mishneh Torah, Maimonides basically restated his judgment about the idolatrous status of Christianity without repeating the reasons he gave in his earlier works. As a theologian, he took regularly strong exemption to Christian Trinitarianism. Maimonides ranked Islam superior than Christianity on theological grounds. For him, Christianity is the prime example of the error of such anthropomorphism in its original doctrine of the Incarnation and in its associated doctrine of the Trinity."

Source:Jewish-Christian Dialogue: A Jewish Justification
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Misquote? Did I not use the words you, yourself, or people you were referring to did? All I know is, you nay-say anyone with an opinion counter to your own (or refuse to even respond to - saying "I already refuted you" - a hallmark statement of someone who knows they can't actually back up their words and is looking to simply dodge the situation - which I highly suspect is true), and the moment someone backed you up by calling Christians "tantrum throwing babies" you thanked them like they had just solved world hunger.

You misquoted me because I was talking to someone else some of the words in your original opinion I did not use.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I think that is the problem you're having here. The conflict you're referring to isn't really rooted in theology, it's mostly about political culture.

How so? Judaism holds Christianity polytheistic in nature and Maimonides (a famous Jewish thinker) concedes that Islam theologically is superior to Christianity. If Islam is absolutely wrong in the Christian eyes what does that say about the Jew who holds Islam as "more right" theologically?

Christianity and Islam were both primarily shaped by warlords and their followers, Constantine and Muhammad et al. They were designed as instruments of domination. Weapons for empire building.

How can this be factual? For one Muhammad was never a soldier in anyone's army prior to his prophetic mission. He was a business man and did business with people in his time. Muhammad was called Al-Amin "the Trustworthy" due to his acts as a businessman I don't see any warlord development. People often mistake his post prophetic mission and the battles he was involved in and the decisions he has made as a commander as if he was a complete warlord. In addition you mentioned Constantine which came later after the creation of Christianity and most likely Christianity is very much associated with Paul who was neither a soldier in an army or a military leader so how could Christianity and Islam be built around that?

The Qur'an or God, cannot help that empires came into existence through the advent of some prophet or leader this is the effect of people who believe in a unified message. I would liken this to Genghis Khan uniting all the Mongolian tribes under one banner. Coming together is the natural effect of people coming together for one common cause. Human beings have caused wars for centuries and people have manipulated scripture for centuries there is nothing new. But by no means does that make Judaism, Christianity and Islam's foundation to be a violent one.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
There is a country full of fanatics in Pakistan and more besides. How many fanatics does it take before it becomes an issue of concern?

This thread isn't about fanatics though, this is about the theological differences that are infinitely obvious to which you are ignoring.
 
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