How important is Satan in your faith or worldview?

[nPeace]

My humble understanding on this matter and my personal view is that Jesus Teachings revolve around love for all people and that He would much have preferred reconciliation between faiths rather than conflict or wars.

So all humanity are my brothers and sisters no matter which religion or no religion.

It is my understanding that He referred to the coming of Baha’u’llah when He spoke about one fold and one shepherd, that is, all people united in belief in one God.

In the days of Jesus it was love thy neighbour but in this day it is to love all mankind just an expansion of the love He taught in a universal manner.

So it is my understanding we must love all religionists and all people and be at peace with each other. This is what Jesus taught .
Baha’u’llah is only expanding further the teachings of Jesus to Encompass this day and age but they are one in spirit and have the same aims and goals namely that we love each other and all humanity and be free from prejudice.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.
From scripture we do see that Jesus Christ perfectly reflected his father's love, so that is a love worth imitating, and JWs try to show love to all their neighbors.
They do so by showing an interest in people wherever they go, both in a physical and emotional way, but more importantly in a spiritual way - sharing the message of truth - the good news of the kingdom of God.
Their faith is a way of life.

One of the things that stands out to me about Jesus, is his love first and foremost for his father. He loved his father so much that he stands for everything his father represents. This includes truth, righteousness, and justice. Hebrews 1:9 says of Christ ...You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”

So Jesus also loves what is right and true, and hates what is unrighteous and false, because they are not of/from his father.
John 14:6; 17:17; 18:37
That appeals to me, knowing that those whom I want as my friends hate those things, because I want to imitate that, and strive to.

So what do you think about Jesus' words?
Matthew 7:15-23
15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves.
21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

....and his apostles'
Acts 20:29, 30
29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.

1 Timothy 4:1
However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons,

2 Timothy 4:3, 4
3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.

1 John 2:18, 19
18 Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it might be shown that not all are of our sort.

Do you think we should imitate them in their hatred of such unrighteousness and deliberate falsehood (not hatred of people)?

 

[Dawnofhope]

@adrian009
Apparently you want to believe what you want to believe, and ignore the truth, or facts - even though you read them for yourself. You are free to believe those that misrepresent the truth.
Considering your aim, I am by no means surprised, nor moved.
Take care.

Hi @nPeace
Thanks for dropping by and discussing your faith. I’ve learned a lot more about it. As made clear at the outset, I am a Baha’i and have no interest in changing to another religion as you are a Jehovah Witness and clearly very committed. All the best

 

[oldbadger]

Was in and out of hospital with gallstones so I got to see a lot of pretty nurses. Lol.

Ouch!
I hope you're all clear now.

 

[Deeje]

My humble understanding on this matter and my personal view is that Jesus Teachings revolve around love for all people and that He would much have preferred reconciliation between faiths rather than conflict or wars.

So all humanity are my brothers and sisters no matter which religion or no religion.

I would have to disagree with this concept. Where did Jesus ever indicate that he was trying to reconcile the different branches of faith within Judaism? He did not come to fix what was wrong with the Jewish system, he came to lead the "lost sheep" out of a doomed religious system that was basically incorrigible.

God had already warned Israel to steer clear of any form of worship outside of that which God had prescribed. So I cannot see any kind of interfaith as having God's approval. This is because of where false worship originated. If God wanted interfaith movements we would see some moves in that direction with both the Jews and with Christ and his followers.....but the opposite is true.

In the days of Jesus it was love thy neighbor but in this day it is to love all mankind just an expansion of the love He taught in a universal manner.

There was never a universal inclusion apart from "love of neighbor". Doing good to a fellow human in need is not the same as joining in with them in their worship. God forbade his people from engaging in the false worship of the nations and punished them when they did so.

So it is my understanding we must love all religionists and all people and be at peace with each other. This is what Jesus taught .

Being at peace with our fellow man is a very important aspect of our worship. In his Sermon on the Mount Jesus said...
"Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth."...."Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God."...." “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God."

We see two distinct groups identified in the first two verses there...ones who will "inherit the earth" and another group who will "see God". No human can see God and no human ever has, (John 1:18) so we see this as identifying those ones chosen by God to leave their fleshly bodies behind and experience a heavenly resurrection. They will rule with Christ in his kingdom. (Revelation 20:6)

"Peacemakers" are not to be confused with "peacekeepers"......they are two very different roles but all of God's children must seek to actively "make peace".....not by compromising their beliefs, but by having the courage to stick to their faith when all around them are losing or compromising theirs.

We should not see a need to do harm to another soul....no matter how they may differ to us religiously, racially or politically . If people use religion as an excuse to hate or do violence, then they have lost sight of what Jesus taught. If we 'must love our enemies'...who is there to hate?

Baha’u’llah is only expanding further the teachings of Jesus to Encompass this day and age but they are one in spirit and have the same aims and goals namely that we love each other and all humanity and be free from prejudice.

It's a nice thought, but nothing that man has done has ever even come close to achieving an end to hatred and prejudice. These still dominate the thinking of too many people. The Bible does not indicate that man will ever accomplish true peace and security for all.....God's Kingdom will "come" in a way that most people are not expecting...and then God's "will can be done on earth as it is in heaven"....this is what Jesus taught us to pray for.

The prophet Daniel pointed forward to our time when explaining a march of world powers represented by parts of a dream image experienced by Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar when Israel was being held captive in exile . It began with Babylon and continued through Medo-Persia, then to Greece, then to Rome and from the ashes of Rome, rose Britania, who later joined forces with America to become a formidable world power, through wars that have been fought since the "last days" began. These are the kings referred to in Daniel 2:44. God's Kingdom was going to crush human rulership out of existence and replace it "in the days of those kings". This is why we see the Kingdom's coming as imminent.....being prepared like it could come tomorrow. (Matthew 24:42-44)

I wonder what would be the greatest punishment we could be given? How about what would be the greatest reward?

Jesus tells us in his description of what will take place when he comes as the judge of all. Those found "doing the will of the Father" will be judged as "sheep" and inherit the Kingdom (the greatest reward).....but those who are deemed to be "goats" (stubborn and can't be told) will get what they deserve....not just a slap on the wrist but a complete forfeiture of life.

“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world.......“Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels."

The "everlasting fire" (the lake of fire) is a place from which nothing and no one returns. It remains as an everlasting receptacle to "destroy" any would-be rebel in the future. Since we will all still have free will in the world to come, there is nothing preventing a repeat of what happened in Eden, but now we have a written historical record of what happens when humans or angels defy their God. This will create precedents for all time to come so that rebels will never again derail God's purpose.

You mentioned choice though.

So who really inflicts punishment or reward upon us God or our good or bad choices?

There are consequences for our choices....most of which do not come from God, but result from disobeying him. But when the time comes for re-establishing Theocratic rule to the human race, those who have made the choice to reject God or his Kingdom in favor of something they personally find more appealing will soon see that God will not alter his ways to accommodate what humans want to believe....it is we who need to alter our ways and thinking to conform to his. Not many are willing to do that.

So isn’t it we who, through our choices really pass judgement upon ourselves and isn’t the ‘Day of Judgement’ referring to a time when we will all once again be forced to choose to accept or deny God through the appearance of another Holy One?

Yes, but it seems that Bahia's believe that he has been and gone without doing a single thing he promised.....? How is that possible?

There are many reasons we turn away from the truth but I would venture to say it is due to lack of purity of heart than anything else for Jesus said the ‘pure in heart shall see God. So purity of heart is the requirement and we have complete control over that.

The "pure in heart" will "see God" so it is God who will determine who has the necessary qualifications to enter heaven.....but I hope to be among those who "will inherit the earth"...this is my home and I love it....I never want to leave it, and hopefully soon a "great crowd" will never have to. And they will be reunited with those they have lost via the resurrection....it was never God's intention to separate them from their loved ones.

I wish you well and enjoyed reading your post a lot.

Thank you for your respect...always a pleasure.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I don’t think anyone two thousand years ago had a concept of interfaith or different Faith groups working together as has now become essential with increasingly multicultural communities and international cooperation. The main achievement of Christ’s mission was to reframe and reform central elements of Judaism that enabled the spread of the New Testament to the gentiles and then through out the world. Some doctrinal errors became apparent by the fourth century as the Nicene Creed was established. Doctrines such as the Trinity and Divinity of Christ were introduced that were not intended by Christ. The prophet Muhammad in the 7th century corrected these doctrinal elements and reframed Judea-Christianity that enabled further promulgation of monotheism worldwide. The Islamic Golden age came followed by the European Renaissance allowing unparalleled intellectual and scientific progress. With these developments humanity was ready for more universal teachings that could be applied to the modern world. God through the sanctified personage of Bahá’u’lláh taught the Oneness of God’s Messengers and the earth is one country and mankind it’s citizens. His Revelation encompasses principles such as the equality of men and women, international cooperation, a model of a new way of administering human affairs based on democratic principles and abolition of prejudice.

Both Christianity and Islam, two of the main world religions are too divided and out of touch with the modern world to have any hope of fully meeting the needs of humanity for the 21st century and beyond.

 

[CG Didymus]

I was speaking to an RF member of another faith recently about Satan. In some faiths there is a belief in a literal who is this malevolent being in the spiritual realm that is responsible for a great deal of the evil that happens in the world. Its not part of my worldview as Satan is seen as part of the lower self.

The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm…. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.
Abdu’l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294–295.

“The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world.”
Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 123.

The discussion took an almost inevitable and familiar direction that my very disbelief in Satan was a reflection of how powerful he really was. Afterall he had convinced me he didn't exist. Further my entire faith was in all likelihood founded on Satan's deception. Well it must be, if I didn't believe what he believed, what other explanation could there be! Further my irritation and unhappiness with such a conversation reflected a personal inadequancy on my part as well as my faith. Fortunately the conversation didn't last too long. It did leave me wondering about the benefits or risks of having a worldview that included a literal Satan. Perhaps Satan could be more helpful if seen as part of an allegorical narrative that teaches us spiritual truths or representative of aspects of our own nature we often struggle with.

Any comments and questions appreciated as always.

The usual problem, Baha'is believe something is symbolic, allegorical, figurative, or any other word you want to use to show that something Christians believe to be literal in the Bible isn't literal but figurative. Satan is too easy for you to argue as being merely the "lower" nature, or that evil is like the darkness and vanishes away in the light. But... the NT is big on talking about demons as if they are real and that Jesus cast many demons out of people.

So how do Baha'is make those verses of Jesus casting out demons into something that was meant to be "symbolic". Because, again, the NT writers make it sound like actual, historical events that took place. And, if demons are real, then there is a good chance their leader, Satan, is real also. Or, the NT is wrong. The gospel writers were wrong. And, Christians, and anybody else that believes that Satan and demons are real, are also wrong.

Here's some of the verses about Jesus casting out demons. There's more on the link, but these should be enough.
Mark 1:34
And He healed many who were ill with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and He was not permitting the demons to speak, because they knew who He was.

Luke 4:41
Demons also were coming out of many, shouting, "You are the Son of God!" But rebuking them, He would not allow them to speak, because they knew Him to be the Christ.

Mark 1:39
And He went into their synagogues throughout all Galilee, preaching and casting out the demons.

Luke 13:32
And He said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.'

Luke 4:35
But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be quiet and come out of him!" And when the demon had thrown him down in the midst of the people, he came out of him without doing him any harm.

Matthew 8:32
And He said to them, "Go!" And they came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters.

Mark 5:8
For He had been saying to him, "Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!"

Luke 8:29
For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For it had seized him many times; and he was bound with chains and shackles and kept under guard, and yet he would break his bonds and be driven by the demon into the desert.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The usual problem, Baha'is believe something is symbolic, allegorical, figurative, or any other word you want to use to show that something Christians believe to be literal in the Bible isn't literal but figurative. Satan is too easy for you to argue as being merely the "lower" nature, or that evil is like the darkness and vanishes away in the light. But... the NT is big on talking about demons as if they are real and that Jesus cast many demons out of people.

So how do Baha'is make those verses of Jesus casting out demons into something that was meant to be "symbolic". Because, again, the NT writers make it sound like actual, historical events that took place. And, if demons are real, then there is a good chance their leader, Satan, is real also. Or, the NT is wrong. The gospel writers were wrong. And, Christians, and anybody else that believes that Satan and demons are real, are also wrong.

Here's some of the verses about Jesus casting out demons. There's more on the link, but these should be enough.
Mark 1:34
And He healed many who were ill with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and He was not permitting the demons to speak, because they knew who He was.

Luke 4:41
Demons also were coming out of many, shouting, "You are the Son of God!" But rebuking them, He would not allow them to speak, because they knew Him to be the Christ.

Mark 1:39
And He went into their synagogues throughout all Galilee, preaching and casting out the demons.

Luke 13:32
And He said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.'

Luke 4:35
But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be quiet and come out of him!" And when the demon had thrown him down in the midst of the people, he came out of him without doing him any harm.

Matthew 8:32
And He said to them, "Go!" And they came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters.

Mark 5:8
For He had been saying to him, "Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!"

Luke 8:29
For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For it had seized him many times; and he was bound with chains and shackles and kept under guard, and yet he would break his bonds and be driven by the demon into the desert.

Only the synoptic gospels provide a narrative of healing those with demons, John does not. I’m not aware of any demon possession/healing narratives in the Hebrew Bible. Acts mentions an episode but has the same author as Luke.

So did demon possessions only start to get recorded in the New Testament and not the Tanakh? Then why the synoptic gospel writers of Mark, Luke and Matthew who most scholars agree were not eyewitnesses to the life and Teachings of Jesus and who clearly shared much material in their accounts.


Over three-quarters of Mark's content is found in Matthew, and much of Mark is similarly found in Luke. Additionally, Matthew and Luke have material in common that is not found in Mark.

So all these references to demonic possessions and healing in the Synoptics and not a single exorcism in John or the Tanakh! What gives?

I could talk further about known medical causes for epilepsy and schizophrenia along with a complete absence of anyone having been proven to have demonic possession in modern times.

I know you don’t seriously take any of this literally and so you shouldn’t.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I would have to disagree with this concept. Where did Jesus ever indicate that he was trying to reconcile the different branches of faith within Judaism? He did not come to fix what was wrong with the Jewish system, he came to lead the "lost sheep" out of a doomed religious system that was basically incorrigible.

God had already warned Israel to steer clear of any form of worship outside of that which God had prescribed. So I cannot see any kind of interfaith as having God's approval. This is because of where false worship originated. If God wanted interfaith movements we would see some moves in that direction with both the Jews and with Christ and his followers.....but the opposite is true.



There was never a universal inclusion apart from "love of neighbor". Doing good to a fellow human in need is not the same as joining in with them in their worship. God forbade his people from engaging in the false worship of the nations and punished them when they did so.



Being at peace with our fellow man is a very important aspect of our worship. In his Sermon on the Mount Jesus said...
"Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth."...."Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God."...." “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God."

We see two distinct groups identified in the first two verses there...ones who will "inherit the earth" and another group who will "see God". No human can see God and no human ever has, (John 1:18) so we see this as identifying those ones chosen by God to leave their fleshly bodies behind and experience a heavenly resurrection. They will rule with Christ in his kingdom. (Revelation 20:6)

"Peacemakers" are not to be confused with "peacekeepers"......they are two very different roles but all of God's children must seek to actively "make peace".....not by compromising their beliefs, but by having the courage to stick to their faith when all around them are losing or compromising theirs.

We should not see a need to do harm to another soul....no matter how they may differ to us religiously, racially or politically . If people use religion as an excuse to hate or do violence, then they have lost sight of what Jesus taught. If we 'must love our enemies'...who is there to hate?



It's a nice thought, but nothing that man has done has ever even come close to achieving an end to hatred and prejudice. These still dominate the thinking of too many people. The Bible does not indicate that man will ever accomplish true peace and security for all.....God's Kingdom will "come" in a way that most people are not expecting...and then God's "will can be done on earth as it is in heaven"....this is what Jesus taught us to pray for.

The prophet Daniel pointed forward to our time when explaining a march of world powers represented by parts of a dream image experienced by Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar when Israel was being held captive in exile . It began with Babylon and continued through Medo-Persia, then to Greece, then to Rome and from the ashes of Rome, rose Britania, who later joined forces with America to become a formidable world power, through wars that have been fought since the "last days" began. These are the kings referred to in Daniel 2:44. God's Kingdom was going to crush human rulership out of existence and replace it "in the days of those kings". This is why we see the Kingdom's coming as imminent.....being prepared like it could come tomorrow. (Matthew 24:42-44)

Jesus tells us in his description of what will take place when he comes as the judge of all. Those found "doing the will of the Father" will be judged as "sheep" and inherit the Kingdom (the greatest reward).....but those who are deemed to be "goats" (stubborn and can't be told) will get what they deserve....not just a slap on the wrist but a complete forfeiture of life.

“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world.......“Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels."

The "everlasting fire" (the lake of fire) is a place from which nothing and no one returns. It remains as an everlasting receptacle to "destroy" any would-be rebel in the future. Since we will all still have free will in the world to come, there is nothing preventing a repeat of what happened in Eden, but now we have a written historical record of what happens when humans or angels defy their God. This will create precedents for all time to come so that rebels will never again derail God's purpose.

There are consequences for our choices....most of which do not come from God, but result from disobeying him. But when the time comes for re-establishing Theocratic rule to the human race, those who have made the choice to reject God or his Kingdom in favor of something they personally find more appealing will soon see that God will not alter his ways to accommodate what humans want to believe....it is we who need to alter our ways and thinking to conform to his. Not many are willing to do that.

Yes, but it seems that Bahia's believe that he has been and gone without doing a single thing he promised.....? How is that possible?

The "pure in heart" will "see God" so it is God who will determine who has the necessary qualifications to enter heaven.....but I hope to be among those who "will inherit the earth"...this is my home and I love it....I never want to leave it, and hopefully soon a "great crowd" will never have to. And they will be reunited with those they have lost via the resurrection....it was never God's intention to separate them from their loved ones.
Thank you for your respect...always a pleasure.

Who was the Son? Jesus right? . He was in human form also right. Who is the Father? He could be take the form of a human too like Jesus the Son. No human can see God but we can know the Father and the Son. When Baha’u’llah addressed the Christians He referred to Himself as the Father just like Jesus referred to Himself as the Son. This sounds as far fetched to Christians now as Jesus claiming to be the Son did in His time but it’s nothing new.

What about the Pharisees and Sadducees? They were just as absolutely certain that Jesus was not the messiah as some contend about Baha’u’llah. Despite their expertise and knowledge of the scriptures they were gravely mistaken.

Like most, they thought that when the messiah came they too couldn’t miss Him yet they did and to this day deny His truth.

I’m just pointing out that humans no matter how learned may miss the Second Coming quite easily as Jesus said He would come like a thief in the night and to watch and pray.

So to those who are watching and praying we announce the glad tidings that He has come with the ‘new name’ promised in Revelation which is Baha’u’llah.

These are joyous glad tidings that every Christian has yearned to witness. And people all over the world are seeing the return of Jesus as in ‘all eyes shall see Him’. Shall can also infer eventually not necessarily instantly which Christians have interpreted.

It does not say all eyes will ‘immediately’ see Him but ‘shall’ see Him.

It’s very possibly a misinterpretation based upon fallible human knowledge. It’s like the Jews expected an earthly king instead of a heavenly one so when Christ appeared as a spiritual King they denied Him.

So too people deny Baha’u’llah because He does not meet their own interpretation of scriptures but what is the correct interpretation?

Thank you for your courtesy. I always respect your beliefs even if we understand differently and I too share your views in that religion should never be a cause of harm to anyone. God bless.[/QUOTE]

 

[Sammaiel]

As a satanist... quite important indeed. The revolving center of my spirituality, my muse, my inspiration.
The focus of my greatest hope, dream and project, the Magnus Opus.

 

[nPeace]

@CG Didymus It is apparent there is no limit to how far Bahais go to interpret scriptures to fit their religious beliefs. Here is one clear demonstration.
Way, Truth, and Life.
Modern Christians sometimes use passages from the New Testament as titles or descriptions of Jesus. Perhaps the best example would be John 14:6, '1 am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me'. Bahá'í would not reject this passage from the Gospel of John, but they would interpret it differently than most Christians. Two possible approaches come to mind. One would be to examine the word 'I'; to whom is Jesus referring? To Himself, certainly, but could He not be referring to all Manifestations in general, since, as Bahá'u'lláh explains, one of the stations of the Manifestations is 'pure abstraction and essential unity' (Gleanings 51)? Thus, Jesus's statement would never have been meant to exclude the other Manifestations, especially not Himself when He returned – that is, in the person of Bahá'u'lláh. A Christian theologian, John Cobb, has also recognised the ambiguity of 'I' and has suggested that the 'I' refers not to the historical Jesus, but to the eternal logos manifested in Jesus.[9] In Bahá'í terms, Cobb is suggesting that the 'I' refers to the Holy Spirit common to all the Manifestations, or to their station of unity.

One could also examine the word 'am'. The verb to be has many uses – the Oxford English Dictionary lists twenty four – some of which are normally distinguished from each other only by context. One grammatical usage is the universal present, which is used to make statements that are always true, such as 'triangles are three-sided'. Another usage applies to the present, but may not apply to the future as well, such as 'I am young' or 'I am alive'. Christians usually understand the statement 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life', as a universal present, but could it not be meant to apply only to some period of time in the past? Could not Abraham have been the way, truth, and life for the peoples of the Middle East from 2000 BCE to respect in the English language that is applied the time of Moses; then Moses was the way, truth, and life until the time of Jesus; then Jesus was the way, truth, and life until the time of Muhammad; and so on? Similarly, Bahá'u'lláh is the way, truth, and life until He will be superseded by another Manifestation, which He assures us will occur after a thousand years (Gleanings 346).

Notice the reasoning.
If you read more from the link, you would notice that the same reasoning is applied to where Jesus is called Lord, and Savior.

Interestingly, Moses - whom Bahais consider a Manifestation of God - said this:
Deuteronomy 18:15-19
15 Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to him. 16 This is in response to what you asked of Jehovah your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, ‘Do not let me hear the voice of Jehovah my God or see this great fire anymore, so that I do not die.’ 17 Then Jehovah said to me, ‘What they have said is good. 18 I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a prophet like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. 19 Indeed, I will require an account from the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name.

If Moses is a Manifestation of God, that is, one and the same as all the others, why did he say, "raise up a prophet like me"? Why not say, "Jehovah will raise me up."?
According to the reasoning used, would they not all be one prophet?

What about the earlier claimed Manifestation of God - Abraham. Where did he prophesy of a coming?

To me, it seem adrian009 is questioning the authenticity of the Gospels, but yet the Bahais refer to those same books - Matthew and Luke.
So I am not sure how one can reason on scripture, with that kind of reasoning.

Actually I question whether @adrian009 believes anything in the Bible. If Moses is considered a Manifestation of God, and he led the Exodus, why would adrian009 say something like this?

That goes for much in the bible. Adam and Eve, Noah's flood, exodus etc , all quite clearly bogus.

They are not meant to be taken literally...unfortunately there are a sizeable number of Christians who believe it should be!

 

[Dawnofhope]

As a satanist... quite important indeed. The revolving center of my spirituality, my muse, my inspiration.
The focus of my greatest hope, dream and project, the Magnus Opus.

Isn’t Satan the guy who loses out in the end?

 

[Sammaiel]

Not in the Satanic Bible.

 

[CG Didymus]

@CG Didymus It is apparent there is no limit to how far Bahais go to interpret scriptures to fit their religious beliefs. Here is one clear demonstration.
Way, Truth, and Life.
Modern Christians sometimes use passages from the New Testament as titles or descriptions of Jesus. Perhaps the best example would be John 14:6, '1 am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me'. Bahá'í would not reject this passage from the Gospel of John, but they would interpret it differently than most Christians. Two possible approaches come to mind. One would be to examine the word 'I'; to whom is Jesus referring? To Himself, certainly, but could He not be referring to all Manifestations in general, since, as Bahá'u'lláh explains, one of the stations of the Manifestations is 'pure abstraction and essential unity' (Gleanings 51)? Thus, Jesus's statement would never have been meant to exclude the other Manifestations, especially not Himself when He returned – that is, in the person of Bahá'u'lláh. A Christian theologian, John Cobb, has also recognised the ambiguity of 'I' and has suggested that the 'I' refers not to the historical Jesus, but to the eternal logos manifested in Jesus.[9] In Bahá'í terms, Cobb is suggesting that the 'I' refers to the Holy Spirit common to all the Manifestations, or to their station of unity.

One could also examine the word 'am'. The verb to be has many uses – the Oxford English Dictionary lists twenty four – some of which are normally distinguished from each other only by context. One grammatical usage is the universal present, which is used to make statements that are always true, such as 'triangles are three-sided'. Another usage applies to the present, but may not apply to the future as well, such as 'I am young' or 'I am alive'. Christians usually understand the statement 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life', as a universal present, but could it not be meant to apply only to some period of time in the past? Could not Abraham have been the way, truth, and life for the peoples of the Middle East from 2000 BCE to respect in the English language that is applied the time of Moses; then Moses was the way, truth, and life until the time of Jesus; then Jesus was the way, truth, and life until the time of Muhammad; and so on? Similarly, Bahá'u'lláh is the way, truth, and life until He will be superseded by another Manifestation, which He assures us will occur after a thousand years (Gleanings 346).

Notice the reasoning.
If you read more from the link, you would notice that the same reasoning is applied to where Jesus is called Lord, and Savior.

Interestingly, Moses - whom Bahais consider a Manifestation of God - said this:
Deuteronomy 18:15-19
15 Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to him. 16 This is in response to what you asked of Jehovah your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, ‘Do not let me hear the voice of Jehovah my God or see this great fire anymore, so that I do not die.’ 17 Then Jehovah said to me, ‘What they have said is good. 18 I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a prophet like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. 19 Indeed, I will require an account from the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name.

If Moses is a Manifestation of God, that is, one and the same as all the others, why did he say, "raise up a prophet like me"? Why not say, "Jehovah will raise me up."?
According to the reasoning used, would they not all be one prophet?

What about the earlier claimed Manifestation of God - Abraham. Where did he prophesy of a coming?

To me, it seem adrian009 is questioning the authenticity of the Gospels, but yet the Bahais refer to those same books - Matthew and Luke.
So I am not sure how one can reason on scripture, with that kind of reasoning.

Actually I question whether @adrian009 believes anything in the Bible. If Moses is considered a Manifestation of God, and he led the Exodus, why would adrian009 say something like this?

I question Baha'is all the time about Abraham and Moses being called "manifestations" of God, because they don't fit the Baha'i definition of a manifestation. They were ordinary people that God used. They were not perfect. They were not "perfectly" polished mirrors like Baha'is claim for manifestations.

My problem with their explanations in other things is that they do use the Scriptures of the other religions to point to how they are the culmination of all the promises and prophecies ever made by any of the religions. But, when it comes to what each religion actually teaches and believes, many of those are clearly spelled out in the Scriptures of those religions, Baha'i will say that those things that don't agree with their teaching have been added in or have been misinterpretations.

This thing about Satan is a great example of that. The NT makes Satan out to be real. I asked Adrian about the Baha'i interpretation of the verses that have Jesus casting out demons. He makes it sound like Matthew, Mark and Luke made those verses up. That's fine. If Baha'is would also say that the NT is not true and is not the Word of God. But, they say the opposite. They do believe it to be the Word of God. Except, there is no Satan and no demons and there is no demons possessing anybody.

Oh, and did I mention that Jesus didn't rise physically from the dead, that's only symbolic. His body is dead and buried. And it is not him coming back. It is Muhammad, The Bab, and now Baha'u'llah. I like so many of the things they believe in, but I can't believe the deeper things they teach.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

This is so characteristic of RF. Some-one asks about Satan, and the result is six pages of Christians and Baha'i swapping scriptural quotations!

For the record, I posted "don't know". Certainly there are people who have had religious experiences in the context of worshiping Satan, so I accept the reality of their experiences as much as I accept my own. But whether the being they encounter is the Satan featured in Christianity, etc, is naturally another question.

 

[syo]

Satan is an entity that follows God's commands to bring temptation. that is all.

 

[Dawnofhope]

This is so characteristic of RF. Some-one asks about Satan, and the result is six pages of Christians and Baha'i swapping scriptural quotations!

For the record, I posted "don't know". Certainly there are people who have had religious experiences in the context of worshiping Satan, so I accept the reality of their experiences as much as I accept my own. But whether the being they encounter is the Satan featured in Christianity, etc, is naturally another question.

Hi @DavidMcCann

Thanks for your post. Back in 1964 Eric Berne wrote his classic book the games people.

Games People Play (book) - Wikipedia

It looks at the psychology of relationships and how people get stuck in unhealthy or unhelpful dialogues that are ultimately problematic for both parties. An example could be the dialogue between Christian fundamentalists and Baha’is. The Baha’i and Christian start talking about religion and soon the conversation becomes “Your following a false prophet”, “You’re being deceived by Satan” or some variant criticism. The Baha’i of course says “No I’m not”, “you don’t know that for certain” or something similar. The Christian in turn says, I do know that because it says so in the Bible. Pretty soon like two cats scapping it out quotes from the bible get dragged out left, right and centre. It’s usually an unproductive conversation that goes nowhere and generates more heat than light.

The approach you have taken in considering your own experiences and those of others is useful but then we’re left making sense of contradictions in human experience as opposed to contradictions in peoples religious belief. Perhaps Satan exists but we are unaware of him. Perhaps we think we’ve experienced Satan but misunderstood our psychological make up and it’s a delusion or hallucination.

A useful statement is to simply state I don’t know as you have done. It’s honest and reflects humility. The next question is does it really matter? I think it does because if the Christians are right that has implications for all of us in both this world and the next. If the Christians are wrong we need a better way to view the universe and what’s written in the Bible. That could be a worldview within Christianity that doesn’t take all verses literally or a myriad of alternative ways to view the universe. Perhaps it’s truth that sets us free (John 8:33).

 

[Hockeycowboy]

we determine whether Satan is a real person by the same standards of judgment that we use for determining whether Caesar and Napoleon were real, personal beings.



we determine whether Satan is a real person by the same standards of judgment that we use for “determining whether Caesar and Napoleon werereal, personal beings.
Many laugh at the idea that Satan even exists. To them, Satan and the demons are characters found only in books, horror movies, and video games. Such people feel that if you are intelligent, you would not believe that wicked spirits exist. Does it bother Satan that people do not believe that he and his demons are real? No. It is easier for Satan to trick those who doubt that he exists.
2 Corinthians 4:4 says

4 among whom the god of this system of things*+ has blinded the minds of the unbelievers,+ so that the illumination* of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God,+ might not shine through.+
When I was 15 I used to tell the fortune .I didn't believe in satan at that time .but my life changed drastically shortly afterwards. And I suffered much .I was afraid of sleeping at night because of the terrible noise in my room which was coming out of nowhere .many years have passed but I 'll never forget the fear I experienced

Wow! I'm sure glad you found the way out from that situation, my sister!

Throughout the years, I've met many of the friends who had once been involved in the occult, and the experiences they endured led them to search for Jehovah!

Christian love from your brother.

 

[CG Didymus]

Only the synoptic gospels provide a narrative of healing those with demons, John does not. I’m not aware of any demon possession/healing narratives in the Hebrew Bible. Acts mentions an episode but has the same author as Luke.

So did demon possessions only start to get recorded in the New Testament and not the Tanakh? Then why the synoptic gospel writers of Mark, Luke and Matthew who most scholars agree were not eyewitnesses to the life and Teachings of Jesus and who clearly shared much material in their accounts.


Over three-quarters of Mark's content is found in Matthew, and much of Mark is similarly found in Luke. Additionally, Matthew and Luke have material in common that is not found in Mark.

So all these references to demonic possessions and healing in the Synoptics and not a single exorcism in John or the Tanakh! What gives?

I could talk further about known medical causes for epilepsy and schizophrenia along with a complete absence of anyone having been proven to have demonic possession in modern times.

I know you don’t seriously take any of this literally and so you shouldn’t.

The usual problem... Baha'is say how great Jesus was, but now here's another thing he supposedly did that isn't true? Is this an official Baha'i stance? Because you make it sound like the synoptic gospel writers were making things up. I don't have a problem with that. But where did they get this information? And, why was it believed and is still believed today by some Christians? But then, not only demons, but many Christians believe Satan is real. They absolutely need Satan and the demons to make sense of their story of why Jesus had to come and sacrifice himself to save humankind. If there is no Satan and demons, then where does that leave Christianity?

So what do we have? The NT writers embellished or made up miracle stories. They made up stories about Jesus coming back to life and ascending into the sky. And, they made up stories about God's adversary, Satan, the devil. Then we have those same writers say all the wonderful things Jesus said, and those things you believe? And those few words are enough to make Jesus a manifestation? Baha'is have gutted the NT... and then claim that they haven't, because they do believe those things, but only symbolically? I don't see it. Those demon stories were told as if they were real... and were meant to be believed as being real. So, it not true, the simple answer is that the gospel writers made up lies to make Jesus a god-like character... and they succeeded.

 

[CG Didymus]

OK...from what I can ascertain from Strongs Concordance, they are right, it is a different word...but not too different.

The word used in John 1:29; 36, as well as Acts 8:32 and 1 Peter 1:19 is "amnos" (G286) and it means a "lamb"...not of any particular age. A lamb can be up to 12 months old.
But the word used in Revelation 5:6 is "arnion" which means a baby lamb. It is "diminutive" indicating a small sheep. It was used by Jesus to Peter when he said to feed his "little lambs". (John 21:15-17) Diminutives are often used to indicate affection and familiarity.

Another example is the expression used by Jesus when he said to the Greek woman: “It is not right to take the bread of the children and throw it to the little dogs.” (Matthew 15:21-26; Mark 7:26) Among the Greeks and Romans, the dog was often a beloved pet that lived in its owner’s house and played with the children. So the expression “little dogs” might have called to mind a warm, endearing picture. The Greek woman picked up on Jesus’ words and replied: “Yes, Lord, but really the little dogs do eat of the crumbs falling from the table of their masters.” Jesus commended her faith and healed the woman’s daughter.—Matthew 15:27, 28.

Can't see how Bahia's twist "little lamb" to accommodate their prophets....

Thanks Deeje, Yes, all of Revelation is filled with twists and turns. The main person that has to return is Baha'u'llah. But they also have to find ways to get Muhammad and The Bab in there too. Ironically, The Bab, and him declaring his mission in 1844, is the date used most often. I think it wasn't until 1863 that Baha'u'llah declared himself the prophet. I'm sure they have references to that date also, but I have never heard them push it.

But now back to Satan... I cringe every time I hear big time preachers tell the story of how "Lucifer" fell and became Satan. When I found out that the word "Satan" came from a Hebrew word than means "adversary". That don't sound so scary, like Satan does. But then this thing about 'Lucifer"? It's what a Latin word for the "morning star" or something? How do JW's explain this? Thanks

 

[Deeje]

But now back to Satan... I cringe every time I hear big time preachers tell the story of how "Lucifer" fell and became Satan.

Lucifer is never used of satan in the Bible.

When I found out that the word "Satan" came from a Hebrew word than means "adversary". That don't sound so scary, like Satan does.

"Satan the devil" is one powerful rebel spirit who changed the course of human history. The way God dealt with his rebellion is nothing short of genius. By allowing him to pursue his selfish ambitions, God creates an opportunity for all of his intelligent creatures (both angels and humans) to see firsthand what results when independence from God is seen and felt in their decisions. This would then divide and separate his 'children' into two categories.....those who willingly desire to do the will of God because they have experienced the fallout, and those who do not, because they simply want to follow their own desires, regardless. Judgment is then rendered by what each free willed creature chooses. We actually determine our own future. We judge ourselves worth to retain the gift of life....or not.

It's interesting that the names of only two faithful angels of God are revealed in the Bible....Michael and Gabriel. When other angels were asked to give their name, they refused.....so "satan" (resister) and "devil" (manslayer) are only titles given to a rebel whose real name God has never allowed to be revealed. This is the importance of a name in the Bible. God's name too is something he has jealously guarded. None of the mainstream Abrahamic religions are permitted to bear it. All worship a nameless "god"..."Adonai" ("Lord")...."Allah" ("Lord") or "the Lord" (referring to Jesus). God's people were always identified by the name of their God.

But then this thing about 'Lucifer"? It's what a Latin word for the "morning star" or something? How do JW's explain this? Thanks

"The Hebrew word translated “Lucifer” means “shining one.” The Septuagint uses the Greek word that means “bringer of dawn.” Hence, some translations render the original Hebrew “morning star” or “Daystar.” But Jerome’s Latin Vulgate uses “Lucifer” (light bearer), and this accounts for the appearance of that term in various versions of the Bible.

Who is this Lucifer? The expression “shining one,” or “Lucifer,” is found in what Isaiah prophetically commanded the Israelites to pronounce as a “proverbial saying against the king of Babylon.” Thus, it is part of a saying primarily directed at the Babylonian dynasty. That the description “shining one” is given to a man and not to a spirit creature is further seen by the statement: “Down to Sheol you will be brought.” Sheol is the common grave of mankind—not a place occupied by Satan the Devil. Moreover, those seeing Lucifer brought into this condition ask: “Is this the man that was agitating the earth?” Clearly, “Lucifer” refers to a human, not to a spirit creature.—Isaiah 14:4, 15, 16.

Selfish pride prompted Babylon’s kings to elevate themselves above those around them. So great was the arrogance of the dynasty that it is portrayed as bragging: “To the heavens I shall go up. Above the stars of God I shall lift up my throne, and I shall sit down upon the mountain of meeting, in the remotest parts of the north. . . . I shall make myself resemble the Most High.”—Isaiah 14:13, 14.

The pride of the Babylonian rulers indeed reflected the attitude of “the god of this system of things”—Satan the Devil. (2 Corinthians 4:4) He too lusts for power and longs to place himself above Jehovah God. But Lucifer is not a name Scripturally given to Satan."

(Excerpts from WT publications)

Feel free to ask if I have missed anything....