Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
@Hockeycowboy thank you for addressing my questions, by the way. I hate floaters.
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I like that.I understand your point. But people can actually see my copyright. They don't have to assume. God concept is very vague. Tell me. How do you see god in the making of the planet without knowing the bible? When you see art and you don't know the concept of creation, what more is there to appreciate what you see without needing an artist to appreciate it? Can you fine god and show god without scripture...something that's not vague?
I like that.
Here's why.
Take away your signature, and your copyright.
Get the picture?
The scriptures are God's signature and copyright.
If we didn't have the scriptures, we could only marvel at the wonders of creation, but we would have no idea what brilliant artist, and compassionate loving father was responsible for all of it.
Enter the Bible... God's signature and copyright.
In it, we learn about the person responsible for nature's great masterpiece.
Either you have faith in a God by looking at all the other points of evidence, or you believe that the universe just suddenly appeared out of nothing.
The thing I don’t get is how something can come out of nothing.
When does the bible ever disagree with science?
“He stretches out the northern sky over empty space, suspending the earth upon nothing.” - Job 26:7
At this time, people thought that the Earth was atop four elephant elephants on a turtle on a etc... The bible, although apparently contradicting ‘science’, was eventually proved correct.
“There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth.” Isaiah 40:22
Everyone thought that the Earth was flat, and some believed that if you walked too far you would fall off the edge.
I find there is No organization without intelligence.
just shows as numbers go on endlessly, so can God be from everlasting
has there ever been any mindless, natural-force accident, which we know about (like a certain tree falling, or Hurricane Iniki, etc) that produced some functional feature?
God stepped back from his creation to show them what happens when they choose independence rather than obedience.
If you are going to make God out to be some kind of second rate failure, then why bother with him at all?
Sentient life is the only kind of life that Bible readers would have understood until they advanced in knowledge of science.
abiogenesis is no closer to being proven than it was when it was first suggested as a way to get rid of an Intelligent Creator.
I think people are fed up with taking pills that do nothing but treat symptoms and cost a fortune.
I don't think you got the picture.I can see that. But not all people need a copyright to apreciate and understand art. It speaks for itself. Unless, maybe, youre an art student, but there isnt really a text to fall back on in appreciating art. I mean, some many find signatures good especially when buying million dollar canvases, but, in general, the scripture IS the art not based on it.
But can you see god in creation without his signature?
I mean, when I look at art, I cant see De Vinci in his painting. Im not an art student and dont know art that intimately, but I dont care. Its not about the artist himself, but how his expression is painted into the art.
The key is: I dont need to prove it. I dont need scripture nor historical channels. I dont need to debate about it. It just is.
If youre not into art, you wont be able to see it and thats okay. You arent ignorant, in denial, or anything like that. My best friend doesnt like art and music (!!!) but she is still my friend. I dont tolerate her or say she is in denial. Thats her and this is me.
But when I look at the ocean, is there a way to find god's signature without referring to scripture?
I mean, I cant find Vinci signature in his art unless I know it beforehand. It doesnt matter either way
Why does it matter to christians?
I am saying that people get to know who did the art.people need a copyright to apreciate and understand art
Faith.There are other possibilities. I think that the most likely scenario is that our universe was spawned by an eternal multiverse.
The point is obviously debatable. You die without water in a few days. You die without oxygen in a matter of minutes.Indeed, but without water there would be no plants and hence no flow on effect vital to life. Where does oxygen and CO2 come from?
The properties of water are unique.
We're not scoffers at God. We're scoffers at Creationism, which is a pseudoscience created by under-educated men afraid of knowledge which challenges their beliefs which they are unwilling to change. Nothing more than that.
You are seeing the generosity of God.Independence worked well for me. I left Christianity some 35 years ago, choosing autonomy over submission to ancient ideas that simply weren't working for me. I've had a good life since, which, if there is a divine presence with an interest in my life, has blessed me for my choice.
I am saying that people get to know who did the art.
They can appreciate the art without knowing the art, but once they get know the artist, they appreciate the artist.
Did I miss your point?
Were you not saying that people don't have to assume who the artist is, because they see the copyright?
All I am saying is that when we see the art of nature, we can assume its designer, but we don't have to assume, because the artist has placed placed his copyright on it - the scriptures.
Hope you understand.
One point though... How does a person understand art from a copyright? They can't.
They can try to understand the art by examining it, but they can only assume they understand the art.
The only way they can truly understand the art - that is, what the art is all about; why the art was done; etc. is if the artist explains - because he did it.
Otherwise, those observers are merely guessing.
Am I right?
First, can I suggest we take our minds off the god issue, and just focus on a discussion on art for now.How does the art itself tell you about the artist? (Or that there is one?) Is it a feeling or intuition?
I agreed that one can appreciate art even though the artist is not around, but I have not stopped at just the art... you see. I may admire the art so much that my mind goes to the artist.No. (Not home so I can't double check). I was wondering if it's intuition that you know there is an artist based on what you see? Do you assume (intuition better word?) There is one because of your appreciation?
I'm saying there isn't a need to know if there is an artist to appreciate the art. The key is that deniers are supposed to recognize there is an artist rather than stopping at the art.
I was asking without the scriptures, can the art speak for itself? (Cause not all have scriptures, abrahamic at that, yet are told without it they can't fully and correctly appreciate the art in the Same intensity as the other)
You can't know an artist by their technique, unless first you know the artist. That means you must have met the artist, and become familiar with their signature - that is their techniques, level of skill, preferred medium, etcIf they are a set student, they'd probably look more into it. Some know the artist just by paint shading and technique.
We'll come back to the god topic shortly.From a non artist view, I suppose. If you mean academics, no. But I assume, at least for me, it's a religious feeling. Even with Waldo Emerson quotes. Weird I can tell it's him by How he writes without knowing who he is.
But, I don't see that connection with nature. Nature isn't bound by our perspective of what is god, origin, etc. It just is. We put ideas and stories to understand it. It's interesting I can talk to three people of seperate religions, say I did Hindu, and the same context and even language is used to explain god's interaction with you guys.
But the difference is we Are the art. But in my views, its not necessary to have an artist. Some artist are more me-oriented. Really depends.
Young earth is not a science claim. It's a religious claim that lacks any science supporting it. What you mean to say is, you are open to religious claims regarding science matters, over science's claims regarding science matters? Is that an accurate assessment of your position?I can speak for myself, I'm open to science claims, be they young or old Earth, macroevolution or rapid evolution, etc.
You certainly can question how people read the Bible. But are you qualified to question how science interprets the data from science? Are you qualified to offer other scientific explanations? Do you think that science is a matter of opinion, and nothing more? Do you believe that Jane in the checkout lane of the Kwiki Mart can weigh in with her opinions about Black Holes, equally to that of the late Stephen Hawking?I also know the Word of God is truth. I question how both Creationists and others interpret both the Bible and the data from science.
Ok, but do you believe that matter is eternally existent then, that God just took the bits that some other Creator created and fashioned them into you and me? Where did that matter come from? How did it come to exist? Out of nothing?Nice, exactly what I was about to reply to @Windwalker
Of course not. That is not a matter for scientific investigation.What I don’t have is scientific proof that either God doesn’t exist
Two different things here. Regarding Evolution, we do have evidence how it happens. It happens every single moment of every single day. God is not in there tinkering around with all the bits, moving this gene here, arranging that bit of DNA there, bringing that cute girl into your life, and so on and so forth.or that such things as evolution or the universe coming about simultaneously without a divine being creating it being true.
This is completely false, and what you think you are seeing is really more a matter of taking obscure passages and reading them into a modern understanding. The Muslims do this little parlor trick too with the Koran. Go read some of the "predictions" of Muhammad the believers in him come up with. It is exactly, 100% the same thing you are doing is seeing "science" in the Bible.In my experience, the bible is highly scientifically accurate. Although it is not a science text-book, whenever it touches on science it has been proved correct, and so it should be, even when popular opinion was very different.
Oh my goodness. There are websites devoted to this. I need not elaborate much. World-wide flood? That's one.When does the bible ever disagree with science?
Technically, it is "suspended" on something, indeed. Gravity, is something. Centrifugal force is something. Would you ever claim when you throw a ball up into the air that it's up there with no forces acting upon it, that is just hanging there independently?“He stretches out the northern sky over empty space, suspending the earth upon nothing.” - Job 26:7
How do you handle it when the Muslims do this same thing with the Koran? Are they wrong, but you are right? If they are right too, then do you believe the Koran is a book of magical science knowledge, like the Bible is?At this time, people thought that the Earth was atop four elephant elephants on a turtle on a etc...
The bible, although apparently contradicting ‘science’, was eventually proved correct. People thought ‘how can the Earth simply hang upon nothing?! That’s crazy!’
False. Not everyone did believe the earth was flat. Feast your eyes on this bit of knowledge: Myth of the flat Earth - Wikipedia The ancient Greeks certainly knew the earth was spherical.“There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth.” Isaiah 40:22
Everyone thought that the Earth was flat, and some believed that if you walked too far you would fall off the edge.
If I saw an art piece - no matter what art style is used, I can assume that I know something about the artist.
By studying the art piece, there are certain details that can portray the artist's feeling, interests, etc.
Can I tell that the art piece was done by someone, and therefore there is an artist?
Throw away the ladder, and take the girl.
I have a few options.
1. It's an illusion. It's not really there. Or I am dreaming.
2. It put itself there - maybe the colors came together out of nowhere, or the paint or whatever made those pigments did a crazy dance, and Viola!
3. A pretty girl - or someone - was on a ladder - or something - moments before I arrived, and she - or they -did her - or their - stuff. Oh... not magic. She used her hands.
I pick number 3. What about you?
For now we are not on god yet. After this post, we will apply it to god.
This is how some person who admire art think.
1. Wow! This artist is so good! How did they...? I wonder what...? Who did this? I really would like to meet him/her/it. This is amazing!
I'm talking about a good piece of art here, okay.
Has this been your experience?
You can't know an artist by their technique, unless first you know the artist. That means you must have met the artist, and become familiar with their signature - that is their techniques, level of skill, preferred medium, etc Do you agree?
It is soothing, isn't it?!!
When my wife and I toured Hawaii, one place we visited was Laupahoehoe State Park. Awesome waves!
I know.....we didn't want to leave at all!Oh man if I visited Hawaii I don't think Id ever leave!
You're welcome.@Hockeycowboy thank you for addressing my questions, by the way. I hate floaters.
And yet, somehow you believe that an omnipotent, omniscient god has always existed. A god that didn't come out of nothing because it always existed.
You never question that, do you.
I am wondering if you question that you can count numbers everlastingly both forwards and backwards forever and ever. To me that indicates there is No end to counting in both directions.
So, to me to say God is from everlasting just shows as numbers go on endlessly, so can God be from everlasting.
There is Nothing before Creator ( Revelation 4:11)
There is No creator who created the Creator.
Creator is always the start or beginning of something.
So, the God of the Bible is Not only God but The Creator.
The Creator who started first the invisible realm and expanded His creation to include the now visible or material realm.