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The Miracle of Water.

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
That is incorrect. Atheism adheres to the rational view that there are no gods.
Do you believe there are gods?

Atheism can Not prove there is No God, thus it is the 'exercise of faith' in the non-existence of God or gods.
Moses was ' god ' to Pharaoh - Exodus 7th chapter.
The judges of Psalms 82 were human judges referred to as ' gods ' because they were to judge by using God's standards in which to base or make their judgements of what was right or wrong.
Even Satan is referred to as the ' god ' of this world of badness as per 2 Corinthians 4:4.
Some people's ' god ' is their belly as per Philippians 3:19.
So, to me there are ' gods', and there is the only living God, the God of the Bible.- Revelation 4:11.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The start according to reality was that quarks combined to make protons and neutrons. When the universe had expanded enough for the temperature to reduce to allow the protons and neutrons to combine hydrogen, helium, lithium and beryllium were produced
Not always, not when the sun goes red giant. Earth will be stripped of all living matter and reduced to s ball of hot rock before being consumed.

As far as the expanding universe, that is in harmony with Scripture that the heavens keep expanding.
- Please notice Jeremiah 10:12 B; Jeremiah 32:17; Isaiah 42:5.

God has a purpose for the sun which at this time we don't know, but mankind will know.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Even if a god exists, it didn't "design" evolution. By definition, evolution is an inevitable process that results from natural selection working on random mutations that occur in a genetically diverse population. It is not a process that needs design because it is a process that automatically occurs.
I believe God "designed" evolution in that he designed the universe in such a way that evolution would be an emergent property.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Theo order in which these originate: ether, air, fire, water and earth
Air originates from Ether. Fire from Air. Water from Fire. Earth from Water.

So Water is important, but water originated from Ether, Air and Fire
So I guess they are more important
Ether isn't a thing, but other than that, your post is great.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is no substance on earth as vital for life as water is.....can it be just a fluke of nature?...or is it evidence of purposeful design?
No, you can tell it's not evidence of purposeful design ─ if there was purposeful design we wouldn't get genetic disorders or cancer.

It is however evidence that carbon-based life forms can flourish in a watery environment.

And it's sometimes included in the evidence for the hypothesis that abiogenesis on earth occurred around particular hydrothermal vents ('black smokers').
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
I have a couple of good things to say about water. Helen Kellers story of how she woke up and started understanding language was that she held her cup under the water spigot felt the water come on her and had a spiritual awakening.

We were born coming out of water surrounded by water in the wound.So being baptized in water is natural, there is a feeling of being born again .

Also when i meditate I like to use a video of the ocean and sometimes i use to walk in the water at a swimming pool I used water for meditation a well as a video of the ocean.

When I look into the water the movement of it makes my thoughts disappear.I become at one with it.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
If God directly created everything, then why miscarriages, serious birth defects, storms and tsunamis that kill hundreds to thousands of people, etc.? Is God a genocidal maniac?

After all your years of theological investigation and questioning, the fact that you need to ask that question astounds me. What has the Catholic Church taught you? You actually think this is how God meant us to live? You think God causes miscarriages, birth defects and weather events??? Any wonder you could think he was a genocidal maniac. :facepalm:

Instead, I propose that there is God but that God left His creation incomplete so as to make it ours to improve upon whereas we hopefully leave this Earth at least a bit better than how it was when we came into it. It also has us as imperfect people because of the results of our free will whereas we will sometimes make some bad choices, thus we can improve by following what He taught and by following our own informed conscience.

God stepped back from his creation to show them what happens when they choose independence rather than obedience.

Nothing evil in this world is God's doing...it is all man's doing under the influence of an unseen enemy (1 John 5:19).....doesn't it make you proud to be human? So easily shaken from God's guiding principles...? :rolleyes: This is what "doing it my way" leads to...moral chaos.

This planet was given to us as our permanent home...one we would have had the privilege of making into a global paradise, if only our first parents had obeyed one simple command. After being evicted from Eden, humans have been doing a lousy job at ruling themselves ever since. We have not only scarred the world with our wars, but treated it like one big garbage dump so that it is gasping for breath. There is now nothing that contributes to life on this earth that is not contaminated because of man's greed.

Either/or scenarios rarely hit the target, so I tend to think that this mixture is more likely to hit the mark, thus mixing God's creation with also chance and imperfection.

Its a lousy mix and one that is incompatible with my 'programming'...I was designed for a life way different to the one I have now. Why do I have this expectation that nothing is as it should be? I am not alone in this. If imperfection and its resulting frustration is all that we were offered then why do we expect better? If sickness, disease and death were meant to be part of our human experience...why does it feel so wrong? Why were we not programmed for the life we have? I am personally sick of this world and all the rot that goes on in it.

If you are going to make God out to be some kind of second rate failure, then why bother with him at all? :shrug:
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Oh, my...these ones who just look at the trees, but ignore the forest. I.e., ignore how it all works together.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Let me ask. What is wrong with being accidental?

Well, one question to ask, is: has there ever been any mindless, natural-force accident, which we know about (like a certain tree falling, or Hurricane Iniki, etc) that produced some functional feature?

Buts that's really beside the point....You're an artist, right? You create beautiful masterpieces of art, right? Ok.

Now, somebody says that you didn't do that, that someone else did. In fact, these deniers of you say that nobody did it: that the supplies you used just 'came together by themselves.'

How would you feel?

Now, say your father was the artist...would you feel the need to defend Him?

We do.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I have a couple of good things to say about water. Helen Kellers story of how she woke up and started understanding language was that she held her cup under the water spigot felt the water come on her and had a spiritual awakening.

We were born coming out of water surrounded by water in the wound.So being baptized in water is natural, there is a feeling of being born again .

Also when i meditate I like to use a video of the ocean and sometimes i use to walk in the water at a swimming pool I used water for meditation a well as a video of the ocean.

When I look into the water the movement of it makes my thoughts disappear.I become at one with it.
It is soothing, isn't it?!!

When my wife and I toured Hawaii, one place we visited was Laupahoehoe State Park. Awesome waves!
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I just checked up on that. A sun only burns hot enough to fuse helium during it normal life. When the hydrogen begins to run out the star begins to collapse.

That is the hydrogen core. There is a hydrogen shell which is not consumed completely and is ejected during a supernova. When the helium core is nearly exhausted iron begins to form the core causing an increase in mass thus collapse. The helium fusion is not enough to keep a star at a giant phase due to the increased mass.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
No, you can tell it's not evidence of purposeful design ─ if there was purposeful design we wouldn't get genetic disorders or cancer.

If the human immune system functioned at peak performance, we would not ever get sick at all. That is how amazing it is.
It is recognized as an incredible biological defense mechanism. It recognizes molecules that have never been in the body before and can differentiate between what belongs there and what doesn’t. And if it doesn’t, it begins a war!...and all without a single conscious action on our part. The immune system recognizes our own cells and accepts them, but attacks any cells displaying different molecules on their surfaces, and all cells not ours do display surface molecules different from ours. How could such a complex system have just develop by chance? It is just one of many complex systems in the human body.

The Bible explains why we don't function at a peak level, opening up opportunities for cancer cells to invade and other illnesses to take over the body. Everything that contributes to our health has been tampered with. Our water is full of chemicals...our food is laced with chemical pesticides and artificial fertilizers.....our air is polluted and our lifestyle contributes little to our national health.

It is however evidence that carbon-based life forms can flourish in a watery environment.

As they were designed to do....

And it's sometimes included in the evidence for the hypothesis that abiogenesis on earth occurred around particular hydrothermal vents ('black smokers').

You do understand that the Genesis account doesn't start with life at a microscopic level...? Sentient life is the only kind of life that Bible readers would have understood until they advanced in knowledge of science. That was not to occur until relatively recently....in geological and educational terms. And abiogenesis is no closer to being proven than it was when it was first suggested as a way to get rid of an Intelligent Creator.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
That is the hydrogen core. There is a hydrogen shell which is not consumed completely and is ejected during a supernova. When the helium core is nearly exhausted iron begins to form the core causing an increase in mass thus collapse. The helium fusion is not enough to keep a star at a giant phase due to the increased mass.

Yes, the core, not the shell. We were talking about the creation of lighter element, no shell and no supernova required

As the core begins running out of hydrogen it begins to collapse, less volume, more pressure, hotter fusion, the lighter elements form. Further collapse creates more elements and so on up to iron. Iron is the last element to form as a typical sun ends its life.

Only if the sun is massive enough (several solar masses)
does it go nova where elements above iron are formed.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
As far as the expanding universe, that is in harmony with Scripture that the heavens keep expanding.
- Please notice Jeremiah 10:12 B; Jeremiah 32:17; Isaiah 42:5.

God has a purpose for the sun which at this time we don't know, but mankind will know.

Interpretation is a wonderful thing, you can make it mean whatever you want.

I dont see anything of expanding in there. Just "stretching out" which can also be interpreted as makeing them fit the sky.

You should be aware that cosmology was an unknown science back then. The stars/galaxies appeared to be unmoving. Why would anyone contradict what seems obvious?

I am loath to use this link but i do because it is a christian view of scripture refuting your claim in the terms you would understand
Biblical texts which have been used by some creationists to argue that Scripture supports expansion of the universe were reviewed. To suggest that these texts describe cosmological expansion of space, with galaxies being spread out like the often quoted rubber sheet analogy, is not justifiable and is pure eisegesis. The straightforward meaning is God constructing the heavens above and the earth below as a description of His preparation of a habitat for man. Once the stars were placed in the heavens
Bible cosmological expansion - creation.com
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If the human immune system functioned at peak performance, we would not ever get sick at all.
While it's pretty amazing, and it'd be nice get it all humming perfectly, I fear you're overstating the actual possibilities.
The Bible explains why we don't function at a peak level, opening up opportunities for cancer cells to invade and other illnesses to take over the body.
I think you'll be safer relying on the First World medical profession. Medicine isn't what the bible does ─ Jesus refuses to wash his hands before dinner, for example.
You do understand that the Genesis account doesn't start with life at a microscopic level...? Sentient life is the only kind of life that Bible readers would have understood until they advanced in knowledge of science. That was not to occur until relatively recently....in geological and educational terms.
D'ac.
And abiogenesis is no closer to being proven than it was when it was first suggested as a way to get rid of an Intelligent Creator.
Yes, abiogenesis research has not yet demonstrated a possible compete path from chemistry to active biochemistry, self-replicating cells. On the other hand the advances (some of which have genuinely astonished me) keep coming, so were I a betting man, I'd back myself to live long enough to see science land that fish.

Were I a believer, I might then say, So that's how it was done!
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
While it's pretty amazing, and it'd be nice get it all humming perfectly, I fear you're overstating the actual possibilities.
The scientists seem to disagree with you on that score. It is an amazingly complex piece of engineering brilliance.

I think you'll be safer relying on the First World medical profession. Medicine isn't what the bible does ─ Jesus refuses to wash his hands before dinner, for example.

I am a bit over the first world medical profession. I think people are fed up with taking pills that do nothing but treat symptoms and cost a fortune. Just stand in any pharmacy and watch how many pills people take to maintain their "health". :eek: Then watch and see how much those pills cost them every month.
mad0030.gif
They don't have patients...they have customers...for life. $$$$

With all the advances in science, you'd think that cancer would be a thing of the past by now, but it seems to me that medicine is medieval when it comes to cancer treatments. Why would you give an already ailing body, poison?
Did you know that chemo is a multi-billion dollar a year industry? Who would be in a hurry to kill the cash cow?
sick0004.gif


They have had a cure for cancer for decades but it is out of the reach of most people thanks to pressure from the pharmaceutical industry. There are only three treatments recognized by the medical profession (i.e. allowed to be recommended) ...
chemo = poisoning an already sick body......radiation = actually causes cancer.....and surgery which facilitates metastasis. Are we sure that they know what they are doing when nothing much has changed for decades?

Yes, abiogenesis research has not yet demonstrated a possible compete path from chemistry to active biochemistry, self-replicating cells. On the other hand the advances (some of which have genuinely astonished me) keep coming, so were I a betting man, I'd back myself to live long enough to see science land that fish.

Were I a believer, I might then say, So that's how it was done!

I have a feeling it will be the other way around....all will have to acknowledge the Creator...sooner or later. :D
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am a bit over the first world medical profession.
My friend Bohdan was a doctor, a soft-tissue cancer specialist, a fact that I recall made him chuckle when he was dying of lung cancer. My friend Fay was another doctor who died of peritoneal cancer. My friend and lunching companion Dennis died of blood cancer after two years of tentative diagnoses and fierce drug cocktails. They all had the best attention going, but it wasn't enough. On the other hand the profession fixed me when I had cancer 2004. So while I know every trade has its cynical and exploiting members, in the history of the world there's never been a time when your odds of surviving cancer were better ─ in the First World, anyway.
I think people are fed up with taking pills that do nothing but treat symptoms and cost a fortune.
Like the vitamin industry and herbal medicine, that whole game is deeply cynical.
They have had a cure for cancer for decades but it is out of the reach of most people thanks to pressure from the pharmaceutical industry.
You surprise me. What is it and who has it?
I have a feeling it will be the other way around.... all will have to acknowledge the Creator...sooner or later. :D
Good luck with that.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
The order in which these originate: ether, air, fire, water and earth
Air originates from Ether. Fire from Air. Water from Fire. Earth from Water.

So Water is important, but water originated from Ether, Air and Fire
So I guess they are more important

Ether isn't a thing, but other than that, your post is great.

India[edit]
Hinduism
The system of five elements are found in Vedas, especially Ayurveda, the pancha mahabhuta, or "five great elements", of Hinduism are bhūmi (earth),[5] ap or jala (water), tejas or agni (fire), marut, vayu or pavan (air or wind) and vyom or shunya (space or zero) or akash (aether or void).[6] They further suggest that all of creation, including the human body, is made up of these five essential elements and that upon death, the human body dissolves into these five elements of nature, thereby balancing the cycle of nature.[7]

Classical element - Wikipedia

The five elements are associated with the five senses, and act as the gross medium for the experience of sensations. The basest element is earth.
Earth, created using all the other elements, can be perceived by all five senses – (i) hearing, (ii) touch, (iii) sight, (iv) taste, and (v) smell.
Water, the next higher element, has no odor but can be heard, felt, seen and tasted.
Fire comes next, which can be heard, felt and seen.
Air can be heard and felt.
Aether ("Akasha") is beyond the senses of smell, taste, sight, and touch; it being accessible to the sense of hearing alone.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Well, one question to ask, is: has there ever been any mindless, natural-force accident, which we know about (like a certain tree falling, or Hurricane Iniki, etc) that produced some functional feature?

Why mindless?

Astroids hitting against planets don't have a target in mind. They are completely random. I mentioned seizures. They are actually natural. It's what the body is supposed to do. Same as cancer. The problem isn't the illnesses but how it affects us and ages us etc. Yet, it's completely random.

I'm not a science buff but the universe doesn't just follow a map or a plan. Embrace uncertainty. Not mindless. A blessing. It helps you stay on your toes and not take things for granted by knowing "I will be in heaven soon" (however defined)

Hurricanes don't happen on a plan. There's no watch to say they will happen at this time. Weatherman try to predict it but like religion we put so much into the weatherman without smelling the air and testing for ourselves the weather (which I usually do since I go out jogging in the morning etc)

I mean, things happen at random. Kinda like droping a bunch of skittles down a slope and one skittle for some reason pops out of place. No one plans for these things. They just happen.

Nature included.

Buts that's really beside the point....You're an artist, right? You create beautiful masterpieces of art, right? Ok.

Now, somebody says that you didn't do that, that someone else did. In fact, these deniers of you say that nobody did it: that the supplies you used just 'came together by themselves.'

I understand your point. But people can actually see my copyright. They don't have to assume. God concept is very vague. Tell me. How do you see god in the making of the planet without knowing the bible? When you see art and you don't know the concept of creation, what more is there to appreciate what you see without needing an artist to appreciate it? Can you fine god and show god without scripture...something that's not vague?


How would you feel?

Upset. There is a book on this and something I started implementing. I write poetry and sometimes paint. I also collage. I gathered so much art that I dont know what to do with it.

I started looking up minimalist (well, just simple) way to live since I'm by myself. I started throwing away art and giving my paintings to family. I love the art. The making up art. When I finish, I learn that things change. We don't have then forever.

So, if someone doesnt see an artist in my art, so what. It's not about me. It's about the art. Some people don't even know I wrote the poems I do (don't know isn't the same as deniers, mind you). I read a book about one native American in this mindset. He says he doesn't own anything. All things are owned by god. So no one needs to ask him permission to repeat his words.

Same thing. Why deniers and mindlessness????

I can see why you want an origin and planner but why say others are denial and mindless for not thinking as you? Art is set regardless if one person acknowledges the arts and another person does not.

Now, say your father was the artist...would you feel the need to defend Him?

We do[/QUOTE

Yes. It's usually how. Mindless? Deniers?

Just because you don't acknowledge my father as a writer doesn't change anything. Unless you were mean, then yes. If not, we can discuss the differences in views but I'd never put you down for your views just because you don't acknowledge my father.

That, I don't understand.
 
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