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Psychedelic Jesus

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
First - that is not totally accurate.[

If you understood allegory, you would know it is accurate.

We have no real history for many Biblical characters.

The Bible is real history and you have no real history than any Bible characteristic was not a real person.

And also, why could not those stories have come about by ingesting some mushrooms, or smoking some weed?

Silly statements are just that, silly

We know the Hebrew Priests were using it for YHVH contact. It is in the list for the Temple.

Exo 30:23 Take thou also unto thee principal spices, of pure myrrh five hundred shekels, and of sweet cinnamon half so much, even two hundred and fifty shekels, and of sweet calamus (qaneh bosem cannabis) two hundred and fifty shekels,

Surely you read better than too think that was mixture was to be taken internally. To understand it, read 30:25. What was sweet was cinnamon ,

We also know from the Bible that it was used for trade. I’m going to guess “weed” is better for trade then “reed.” :D

Guess again. It was not used for trade and calamus means reed or branch, not weed.


"KINEBOISIN, according to the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, is the old name for cannabis -- it was also spelt 'kannabosm'. They claim it was mis-translated in the King James' version of the bible, as 'calamus'."

Calamus is only used once in the Bible, Song of Solomon 4:14 and again it is an ingredient in an ointment, not something to be smoked or taken internally.

Webster's New World Hebrew Dictionary by Hayim Baltsan published in 1992. The ISBN number is 0-671-88991-5.

On page 650 there is the definition of 'marijuana'. It says 'kanabos'.

Together, these dictionaries help to prove that cannabis - kanebosm - kanabos - is the missing ingredient in the holy anointing oil of Moses.

First, it is not missing, it is stated plainly. It is cinnamon. Second, the holy ANOINTING oil was not to be taken internally. It might help if you get a good dictionary and look up the meaning of ANOINTING.


“In 1936, Sara Benetowa, later Known as Sula Benet, an etymologist from the Institute of Anthropological Sciences, in Warsaw wrote a treatise, "Tracing One Word Through Different Languages." This was a study on the word Cannabis, based on a study of the oldest Hebrew texts. Although the word cannabis was thought to be of Scythian origin, Benet's research showed it had an earlier root in the Semitic Languages such as Hebrew. Benet demonstrated that the ancient Hebrew word for Cannabis is Kaneh -Bosem.”

If she was trying to prove what you are trying to prove, she wasted her time. Canabus does not describe somethng to be smokked or drunk.

And other hallucinogens are mentioned in the Bible as well.

*

Where?

It is amusing that you are trying to use something you don't believe in to prove something you do believe in.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
If you understood allegory, you would know it is accurate.

The Bible is real history and you have no real history than any Bible characteristic was not a real person.

Silly statements are just that, silly

Nothing supernatural in the Bible can be proven. Nor can a lot of the characters, and some of the so-called history.

Surely you read better than too think that was mixture was to be taken internally. To understand it, read 30:25. What was sweet was cinnamon ,

Guess again. It was not used for trade and calamus means reed or branch, not weed.

Calamus is only used once in the Bible, Song of Solomon 4:14 and again it is an ingredient in an ointment, not something to be smoked or taken internally.

First, it is not missing, it is stated plainly. It is cinnamon. Second, the holy ANOINTING oil was not to be taken internally. It might help if you get a good dictionary and look up the meaning of ANOINTING.

If she was trying to prove what you are trying to prove, she wasted her time. Canabus does not describe somethng to be smokked or drunk.
It is amusing that you are trying to use something you don't believe in to prove something you do believe in.

LOL! You need to do some reading. It was burning and the High priests breathed it in! Why do you think things that made noise were on their robes? If the noise stopped - they could pull him out as he probably passed out.

Marijuana creams and oils pass through the skin and work just fine.

Her research, matched the Hebrew research, and their Hebrew encyclopedia. Perhaps you need to reread that.

And NOT CINNAMON! Obviously you skimmed over what was said - as cinnamon is one of the OTHER ingredients in the mix!

Exo 30:23 Take thou also unto thee principal spices, of pure myrrh five hundred shekels, and of sweet cinnamon half so much, even two hundred and fifty shekels, and of sweet calamus (qaneh bosem cannabis) two hundred and fifty shekels,


Exodus 30:23; Song of Solomon 4:14; Isaiah 43:24; Jeremiah 6:20; & Ezekiel 27:19. Kaneh bosem

We also have Onycha which is also a hallucinogen.

Exo 30:34 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take unto thee sweet spices, stacte, and onycha, and galbanum; these sweet spices with pure frankincense: of each shall there be a like weight:

Onycha is from Murex snails. In some areas the shell is powdered and added to smokes as an psychotropic.

And there are those whom believe the "burning bush" Seneh - is also a hallucinogen.

And good grief - I was using "weed" as the generally understood = marijuana.

The translators got it wrong putting in reed.

*
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Though agreed, as Dr Sula Benet of the Warsaw university put forward, that Kaneh Bosem should translate as Cannabis....

Which causes the anointing oil to become a molecular compound, due to THC being fat soluble.

Yet some of the verses you've put only says Kaneh, and not necessarily Kaneh-Bosem which is only in Exodus 30:23-24. ;)

We should also take into account that the disciples were healing with it in Mark 6:13, and James 5:14. :innocent:
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Though agreed, as Dr Sula Benet of the Warsaw university put forward, that Kaneh Bosem should translate as Cannabis....

Which causes the anointing oil to become a molecular compound, due to THC being fat soluble.

Yet some of the verses you've put only says Kaneh, and not necessarily Kaneh-Bosem which is only in Exodus 30:23-24. ;)

We should also take into account that the disciples were healing with it in Mark 6:13, and James 5:14. :innocent:

I'm pretty sure they used it just as we do today, - for mysticism, - relaxation, - medical, etc. :cool:

The verses are from the authors. It appears that both the longer and shorter form were used.

"The plant name Cannabis is from Greek κάνναβις (kánnabis), via Latin cannabis,[1] originally a Scythian or Thracian word,[2] also loaned into Persian as kanab. English hemp (Old English hænep) may be an early loan (predating Grimm's Law from the same Scythian source."

"The word 'gan-zi-gun-nu' is referenced from stone tablets (dating 700 BCE) that indicate a connection with eastern and near-eastern terms for the plant (gan-zi > ganja, gun-nu > qaneh). This substance was used for witchcraft and prescribed as a useful remedy for a variety of ailments including depression and impotence.[11]

Hebrew קַנַּבּוֹס (qannabbôs) from קְנֵה בֹּשֶׂם (qěnēh bośem) may derive from Sumerian kunibu, [12] though the final -s does not seem to be present in Akkadian (Assyrian) or Sumerian forms. Leading authorities on the etymology of both the German and Russian languages list a Sumerian cognate.

Raphael Mechoulam and co-workers at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem suggest an alternative etymology for cannabis: Greek cannabis < Arabic kunnab < Syriac qunnappa < Hebrew pannag (= bhanga in Sanskrit and bang in Persian). They explain that in Hebrew, only the consonants form the basis of a word and the letters p and b are frequently interchangeable. The authors think it probable that 'pannag', mentioned in the Bible by the prophet Ezekiel (27:17), is in fact Cannabis.[14]"

"Barber analyzed cognate words for "hemp" and "cannabis" in Indo-European languages, and proposed an etymological root of *kan(n)aB- (where *B represents a *p or *b bilabial stop). A reconstructed Proto-Indo-European (PIE) *p- is evident in many IE subgroups:
  • Slavic languages (Russian konopljá, Croatian konoplja, Bulgarian konop, and Czech konopĕ)
  • Baltic languages (Lithuanian kanãpė, Latvian kaņepe, and Old Prussian knapios)
    • Some Finnic languages (Ingrian kaneppi and Estonian kanep) have loaned the word from Baltic.
  • Armenian (kanap)
  • Albanian (kanëp)..." Wiki
Very interesting.

*
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
I'm pretty sure they used it just as we do today, - for mysticism, - relaxation, - medical, etc. :cool:
Always glad when these topics come up, for once we're in agreement more or less...

Relaxation was done outside of temple practises; so there is the holy anointing oil, the ceremonial incense which were all sanctified, and only allowed for the King and priests.

When Christ (Anointed one) came along; Yeshua's teachings allowed the Holy Anointing oil to be used on everyone for healing (Mark 6:13, James 5:14), and mysticism (Matthew 6:17, Matthew 6:6)...

Which is where we got the terminology Christians (anointed ones) from; the early church were all on the Holy anointing oil, and this has slowly been forgotten from most religious cultures globally.

'We are called Christians on this account, because we are anointed with the oil of God' - Theophilus

Thus my understanding of the Tree that shall heal the nations (Revelation 22:2) is it is cannabis; as it was the sacred plant that wrote Zoroastrianism (Haoma), Judaism (Kaneh-Bosem), Hinduism (Soma), and American Indian (Nawak'osis), etc. :innocent:
 
On a somewhat serious note though, mystical or religious ecstatic experiences of seeing visions and whatnot, can happen without the use of drugs. Mushrooms and the like are "assists", than can either induce or enhance otherwise natural mystical experinces. If anything you see in the stories of miracles and whatnot, if not just cases of mythological narratives for the sake of metaphor, may be relaying actual mystical experiences - likely without the use of drugs.

Take Paul's actual account of his own mystical experience:

I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.
If someone practices meditation, such experiences are not uncommon. No drugs are necessary. It's unlikely they were even doing ritual drugs as I don't believe that was part of their religion back then.
That's what so many people want to believe. Actually Psychedlics and very Special and Holy, despite how people treat Them. I can tell you, no amount of standing on one's head and chanting will do what Psychelics do and Show. Not now, not ever. No way. Psychedelics are not some dead tool like any other. They are truly the "Flesh of God".
 
While psilocybin and other substances have been used in some religions...and then in say a more "sacramental" sense than as recreation, I would doubt very much the possibility that Jesus consumed any psychedelic substances .. this is likely more of a "projection" by some people in the sixties perhaps.

I believe the "miracles" reported are likely for the most part to be due to misunderstandings of the Aramaic sources and idioms as they were later translated by Hellenized believers who were Greek speakers.
He definatly was ingesting Mushrooms. There is no mistake that Christ changed the world, and the Budhha and Muhammed, etc. as well. There was no mistake in the miracles or that they came from the Spirit. It was not an accident.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That's what so many people want to believe. Actually Psychedlics and very Special and Holy, despite how people treat Them. I can tell you, no amount of standing on one's head and chanting will do what Psychelics do and Show. Not now, not ever. No way. Psychedelics are not some dead tool like any other. They are truly the "Flesh of God".
How is it you can state so emphatically that someone can't do that, if you yourself haven't experienced these things without drugs? How do you deal with those who say they have? That you haven't, simply means you need that assist, and that's perfectly fine. I personally have experienced them both with and without drugs.

There's something to be said for each way, but personally, without is the preferred way. A natural opening into these states is accessible anywhere, anytime. It would be an error to claim ALL mystical states are drug induced. I have pages of meditation journals over the course of several years describing these experiences, all without any drugs whatsoever.

And yes, I agree drugs like these should be treated as sacred, rather than recreational. But it is an error to believe you can't get there without them, be those psychedelics or chantings or any other assist. It can become as simple turning the spigot on a faucet to let the water flow, without needing a wrench to help you loosen it. That way, you can access the water without having to have that tool always with you. You can just use your own hands.

To me, all those do is help you to see what is all already there within you naturally without needing to come from some external source. To say you can't without the drugs, is like saying you can't be happy without someone to make you happy.

It's a mistaken perception of where that happiness exists. All that really happens is they "give you permission" to let that happiness come out of you. They don't "give" it to you. To fall into that trap, works against what they were they to help you find in the first place. To say you can't get there without them, ends up with you not Awakening to who you are at all times, unconditionally.

And BTW, mystical experience should never be about the experiences. The experiences are "teachers", but not the lesson to be learned itself.
 
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How is it you can state so emphatically that someone can't do that, if you yourself haven't experienced these things without drugs? How do you deal with those who say they have? That you haven't, simply means you need that assist, and that's perfectly fine. I personally have experienced them both with and without drugs.

There's something to be said for each way, but personally, without is the preferred way. A natural opening into these states is accessible anywhere, anytime. It would be an error to claim ALL mystical states are drug induced. I have pages of meditation journals over the course of several years describing these experiences, all without any drugs whatsoever.

And yes, I agree drugs like these should be treated as sacred, rather than recreational. But it is an error to believe you can't get there without them, be those psychedelics or chantings or any other assist. It can become as simple turning the spigot on a faucet to let the water flow, without needing a wrench to help you loosen it. That way, you can access the water without having to have that tool always with you. You can just use your own hands.

To me, all those do is help you to see what is all already there within you naturally without needing to come from some external source. To say you can't without the drugs, is like saying you can't be happy without someone to make you happy.

It's a mistaken perception of where that happiness exists. All that really happens is they "give you permission" to let that happiness come out of you. They don't "give" it to you. To fall into that trap, works against what they were they to help you find in the first place. To say you can't get there without them, ends up with you not Awakening to who you are at all times, unconditionally.

And BTW, mystical experience should never be about the experiences. The experiences are "teachers", but not the lesson to be learned itself.
Consider this: Why do people today in world 'religions' not see real Visions (not based on starvation or mental issues,etc) when taking communion or see actual Spirits & Light, but the Prophets in the bible clearly did - & that is how the Scriptures came to be? What changed? The catholic church gives a wheat wafer for 'communion'. But if you ask people, 'did you actually see a real Light, or hear a real Spirit, the answer is no.' and yet this is being called the Blood & Body of Christ! My point now is that the wheat wafer is a substitution for what was the original Sacrament the Disciple were ingesting.
 
Man has enjoyed the psychedelic effects of mushrooms since thousands of years before Christ. Manna easily fits the description of Psilocybe mushrooms.

For one thing magic mushrooms are small and round, with the limited vocabulary they had back then they could only describe it as resembling white patches of frost in the field, and since they sprout so rapidly they would seem to appear overnight, as if out of the sky. Also, anyone harvesting them would immediately notice that they turn blue where torn and had no roots, giving more reason to believe that the mushrooms were of celestial origin. Note that manna does not just fall from heaven, but instead it is described as coming with the frost and dew, during the wet seasons. These are the precise weather conditions for mushrooms to thrive. And finally, manna is described as a bread (meaning something to eat).

Magic mushrooms would provide visionary experiences that would certainly test all who ingested them. Moses also said that the manna is literally the "bread of the lord" which is remarkably similar to the literal Aztec name for Psilocybe mushrooms, "flesh of the gods."


In Exodus 12: 19-20, we find references to manna.


And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning (16:19). Notwithstanding they harkened not unto Moses. but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms and stank: and Moses was wroth with them(16.20). And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating. and when the sun waxed hot it melted...(16:21).

It seems curious that Moses recognized the manna instantly when the children of Israel showed it to him. He knew that the manna would spoil if it was not picked and eaten in the morning. But how did Moses know about manna? Perhaps Moses knew about manna because he had already encountered the mushroom at the time he saw the burning bush.


We can speculate that manure from his flock and a change in climate had created the proper environment for the mushrooms to fruit. Perhaps Moses ingested the mushrooms purely by accident, or perhaps his father in law, who we know was also a priest, had introduced Moses to the mushroom. Archaeological evidence of psychedelic mushroom use in Biblical times is well documented.

The very foundations upon which these religions rest were derived from the mushroom experience. Moses and the children of Israel used the mushrooms as true sacraments to communicate with a Higher Power, also known as Allah, God and Yahweh. The discovery that manna is real and is available to us today means that like children of Israel we too can use manna to experience the joy, wisdom and spiritual renewal of the Chosen People.

View attachment 16580

'Moses was high on hallucinogenic drug when he received Ten Commandments,' claims top academic | Daily Mail Online
I agree with so much of what you said here, Cobol. The Manna absolutely was the Mushroom. Not long after Christ was gone, the powers that took over the knowdege began removing the Mushroom & replacing with a substitute. Its been so long now, its not even recognized by most people that the substitute is indeed a substitute.
 
First - that is not totally accurate. We have no real history for many Biblical characters.

And also, why could not those stories have come about by ingesting some mushrooms, or smoking some weed? We know the Hebrew Priests were using it for YHVH contact. It is in the list for the Temple.

Exo 30:23 Take thou also unto thee principal spices, of pure myrrh five hundred shekels, and of sweet cinnamon half so much, even two hundred and fifty shekels, and of sweet calamus (qaneh bosem cannabis) two hundred and fifty shekels,

We also know from the Bible that it was used for trade. I’m going to guess “weed” is better for trade then “reed.” :D

"KINEBOISIN, according to the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, is the old name for cannabis -- it was also spelt 'kannabosm'. They claim it was mis-translated in the King James' version of the bible, as 'calamus'."

Webster's New World Hebrew Dictionary by Hayim Baltsan published in 1992. The ISBN number is 0-671-88991-5.

On page 650 there is the definition of 'marijuana'. It says 'kanabos'.

Together, these dictionaries help to prove that cannabis - kanebosm - kanabos - is the missing ingredient in the holy anointing oil of Moses.

“In 1936, Sara Benetowa, later Known as Sula Benet, an etymologist from the Institute of Anthropological Sciences, in Warsaw wrote a treatise, "Tracing One Word Through Different Languages." This was a study on the word Cannabis, based on a study of the oldest Hebrew texts. Although the word cannabis was thought to be of Scythian origin, Benet's research showed it had an earlier root in the Semitic Languages such as Hebrew. Benet demonstrated that the ancient Hebrew word for Cannabis is Kaneh -Bosem.”

And other hallucinogens are mentioned in the Bible as well.

*
Kaneh-Bosem is absoulety Cannabis. Sula Bentet was a highly skilled researcher/etymologist. Exhaustedly researched this, to correct conclusions. People shouldn't assume that what they are being told today is what things were like when Christ lived and soon after he was gone. Look at the frescos, stained glass of that period. there are substitutes today that arent even realized to be substitutes. At one point in history it was understood the wheat wafer is a substitute. If anyone truly wants to know the Truth they can.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Consider this: Why do people today in world 'religions' not see real Visions (not based on starvation or mental issues,etc) when taking communion or see actual Spirits & Light, but the Prophets in the bible clearly did - & that is how the Scriptures came to be? What changed? The catholic church gives a wheat wafer for 'communion'. But if you ask people, 'did you actually see a real Light, or hear a real Spirit, the answer is no.' and yet this is being called the Blood & Body of Christ! My point now is that the wheat wafer is a substitution for what was the original Sacrament the Disciple were ingesting.
Yet, I experience that Light and Spirit, without drugs. To assume as you are that those who have such experiences must have been on drugs, because you had some experiences using them, is an error of your reasoning. I have them, without. Answer why, or how if drugs are a necessity in your imagination, is that possible?

You know atheists think people who claim spiritual experiences are lying, because it's never happened to them? Is that what you are doing here? Because you never experience God without drugs, no one else can either?
 
Yet, I experience that Light and Spirit, without drugs. To assume as you are that those who have such experiences must have been on drugs, because you had some experiences using them, is an error of your reasoning. I have them, without. Answer why, or how if drugs are a necessity in your imagination, is that possible?

You know atheists think people who claim spiritual experiences are lying, because it's never happened to them? Is that what you are doing here? Because you never experience God without drugs, no one else can either?
Not all substances are drugs Windwalker. Psychedelics aren't drugs. They are Substances, Sacraments. Drugs produce addiction & lower consciousness. Psychedelics release from addiction (Ibogaine, Psylocin, etc) & raise consciouness. I feel you are not liking my views, but its really about more than me -- like what did you think of that the wheat wafer served today as 'communion' is clearly a substitution for what the original Christians were ingesting & writing about.
 
I'm pretty sure they used it just as we do today, - for mysticism, - relaxation, - medical, etc. :cool:

The verses are from the authors. It appears that both the longer and shorter form were used.

"The plant name Cannabis is from Greek κάνναβις (kánnabis), via Latin cannabis,[1] originally a Scythian or Thracian word,[2] also loaned into Persian as kanab. English hemp (Old English hænep) may be an early loan (predating Grimm's Law from the same Scythian source."

"The word 'gan-zi-gun-nu' is referenced from stone tablets (dating 700 BCE) that indicate a connection with eastern and near-eastern terms for the plant (gan-zi > ganja, gun-nu > qaneh). This substance was used for witchcraft and prescribed as a useful remedy for a variety of ailments including depression and impotence.[11]

Hebrew קַנַּבּוֹס (qannabbôs) from קְנֵה בֹּשֶׂם (qěnēh bośem) may derive from Sumerian kunibu, [12] though the final -s does not seem to be present in Akkadian (Assyrian) or Sumerian forms. Leading authorities on the etymology of both the German and Russian languages list a Sumerian cognate.

Raphael Mechoulam and co-workers at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem suggest an alternative etymology for cannabis: Greek cannabis < Arabic kunnab < Syriac qunnappa < Hebrew pannag (= bhanga in Sanskrit and bang in Persian). They explain that in Hebrew, only the consonants form the basis of a word and the letters p and b are frequently interchangeable. The authors think it probable that 'pannag', mentioned in the Bible by the prophet Ezekiel (27:17), is in fact Cannabis.[14]"

"Barber analyzed cognate words for "hemp" and "cannabis" in Indo-European languages, and proposed an etymological root of *kan(n)aB- (where *B represents a *p or *b bilabial stop). A reconstructed Proto-Indo-European (PIE) *p- is evident in many IE subgroups:
  • Slavic languages (Russian konopljá, Croatian konoplja, Bulgarian konop, and Czech konopĕ)
  • Baltic languages (Lithuanian kanãpė, Latvian kaņepe, and Old Prussian knapios)
    • Some Finnic languages (Ingrian kaneppi and Estonian kanep) have loaned the word from Baltic.
  • Armenian (kanap)
  • Albanian (kanëp)..." Wiki
Very interesting.

*
The name Kaneh Bosm is lovely. and the story of the word origin is very interesting & reveals Truth
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not all substances are drugs Windwalker. Psychedelics aren't drugs. They are Substances, Sacraments. Drugs produce addiction & lower consciousness.
Chemical assists then if you don't like the word drugs. My point is, those aren't necessary to have transcendental experiences. You seem to claim that they are, that meditation cannot take you where these "assists" can. Am I incorrect in that statement?

Psychedelics release from addiction (Ibogaine, Psylocin, etc) & raise consciouness. I feel you are not liking my views, but its really about more than me --
I've stated I have no problem with using these "assists". For instance, smoking marijuana is also an assist to meditation - if you actually meditate with them, rather than just "getting high" as a form of escape. But you should be able to get there without them. My contention with you is your statement that you can't. My own experiences disprove that.

like what did you think of that the wheat wafer served today as 'communion' is clearly a substitution for what the original Christians were ingesting & writing about.

It's not clear that is what was going on. I hear an awful lot of reading back into to the texts a much later, modern understanding. Sort of like claiming the cave drawings of ancient man were encounters with UFOs, and reading into the drawing all manner of modern artifacts. That's playing loose and free with the data. While interesting, and often entertaining, it doesn't present itself as a near certainty, by any means.

To simply say because you have had similar experiences to what is described when you took these chemical assists, that they therefore must have been using them too just like you, is not a valid conclusion. It's circular reasoning. I have experienced the Absolute; Light, Life, and Love in timeless states of Infinity, without any chemicals or agents of any kind. It can happen spontaneously, or through meditation, or with ingestion of these "aides" to spiritual states.

Mystical experiences do occur naturally without taking any substances into you. And they can be just as, and even more powerful than with the assists of these substances. Do you disagree with either of these two statements?


Edit to Add: My problem with the perception that we cannot experience these states without the use of substances is twofold. First it is factually inaccurate. But more importantly, if we cannot attain this without the use of external substances, then what is opened to in us is not real. It is the chemicals, not actual states of actual Enlightenment.

Here's my take on this. These chemical assists, or any form of meditation assists, such as chanting, mantras, drumming, dancing, etc., simply act and are effective because they suppress or limit the levels of these otherwise distracting noise of our typical minds, constantly swept up into the currents of thoughts and anxieties, emotions and psychological variables, etc. They allow the "higher mind" to more clearly shine forth from the detris of the ordinary mind.

The point then being, it is NOT the chemicals that produce this, but they merely aid or assist in helping the mind access what it fully has already naturally. At a certain point, we don't need training wheels to help us develop a sense of balance. We just hop on the bike, and ride, under the guidance of our innate sense of balance. No assists are necessary.
 
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I love those Jesus and mushroom stained glass windows.

There are actually straight out drug references in the Bible, such as marijuana in the Temple mix.

People have also pointed out that art in the Christian catacombs appears to show Eucharist baskets with psychoactives in them.

Adam and Eve in a 1291 fresco depiction of the Amanita muscaria Tree of Life.

c0de181beee86addb765bec44338e730.jpg


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The Plaincourault Abbey Fresco from 1291 speaks volumes. Amazing.
 
Chemical assists then if you don't like the word drugs. My point is, those aren't necessary to have transcendental experiences. You seem to claim that they are, that meditation cannot take you where these "assists" can. Am I incorrect in that statement?


I've stated I have no problem with using these "assists". For instance, smoking marijuana is also an assist to meditation - if you actually meditate with them, rather than just "getting high" as a form of escape. But you should be able to get there without them. My contention with you is your statement that you can't. My own experiences disprove that.



It's not clear that is what was going on. I hear an awful lot of reading back into to the texts a much later, modern understanding. Sort of like claiming the cave drawings of ancient man were encounters with UFOs, and reading into the drawing all manner of modern artifacts. That's playing loose and free with the data. While interesting, and often entertaining, it doesn't present itself as a near certainty, by any means.

To simply say because you have had similar experiences to what is described when you took these chemical assists, that they therefore must have been using them too just like you, is not a valid conclusion. It's circular reasoning. I have experienced the Absolute; Light, Life, and Love in timeless states of Infinity, without any chemicals or agents of any kind. It can happen spontaneously, or through meditation, or with ingestion of these "aides" to spiritual states.

Mystical experiences do occur naturally without taking any substances into you. And they can be just as, and even more powerful than with the assists of these substances. Do you disagree with either of these two statements?


Edit to Add: My problem with the perception that we cannot experience these states without the use of substances is twofold. First it is factually inaccurate. But more importantly, if we cannot attain this without the use of external substances, then what is opened to in us is not real. It is the chemicals, not actual states of actual Enlightenment.

Here's my take on this. These chemical assists, or any form of meditation assists, such as chanting, mantras, drumming, dancing, etc., simply act and are effective because they suppress or limit the levels of these otherwise distracting noise of our typical minds, constantly swept up into the currents of thoughts and anxieties, emotions and psychological variables, etc. They allow the "higher mind" to more clearly shine forth from the detris of the ordinary mind.

The point then being, it is NOT the chemicals that produce this, but they merely aid or assist in helping the mind access what it fully has already naturally. At a certain point, we don't need training wheels to help us develop a sense of balance. We just hop on the bike, and ride, under the guidance of our innate sense of balance. No assists are necessary.
Just seeing your post today.
Is meditation often very healthy and helpful and improves life? Of course.
Let me put it this way: You & I are only able to have this conversation,or any, because the 5-Methoxy DMT & DMT in our pineal glands are sending Consciousness to our mind, brain, and other organs to operate all the time. We are 'Chemically assisted" at all times. We have to eat regular food and water which are chemicals repeatedly. Do I think humans are spiritually self-sufficient any more that we are physically self-sufficient? No. Psychedelics are the true Communion Substance of the Scriptures. I'm proud to love that.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You & I are only able to have this conversation,or any, because the 5-Methoxy DMT & DMT in our pineal glands are sending Consciousness to our mind, brain, and other organs to operate all the time. We are 'Chemically assisted" at all times.
By "assisted", that cannot mean the natural production of the body within itself. That would be the word "unaided". You are talking about adding something to it. That is what is meant by assisted, or aided by some external agent.

The unaided body, the unassisted body, is able to give anyone a mystical experience. Do you not believe this for some reason? What reason would that be?

Do I think humans are spiritually self-sufficient any more that we are physically self-sufficient? No.
You don't believe we can have mystical experiences without taking drugs into our bodies? Explain my experiences then, and those of countless others.

Psychedelics are the true Communion Substance of the Scriptures. I'm proud to love that.
Can you experience God without these substances? Why not? I would hope you could.
 
By "assisted", that cannot mean the natural production of the body within itself. That would be the word "unaided". You are talking about adding something to it. That is what is meant by assisted, or aided by some external agent.

The unaided body, the unassisted body, is able to give anyone a mystical experience. Do you not believe this for some reason? What reason would that be?


You don't believe we can have mystical experiences without taking drugs into our bodies? Explain my experiences then, and those of countless others.


Can you experience God without these substances? Why not? I would hope you could.
I dont want to talk about your personal experiences which are obviously very important & meaningful to you. Also part of the reason is you want to believe something is wrong with me, when many cultures and people have believed it as well. (Not that I need a lot of people on my side).
But my point is: there is only one identity of the Manna that led the Israelites. There is only one Identity (which is considered lost) of Soma, the Plant that inspired the oldest most sacred Hindu texts. There is only one Identity of the actual Bread that was eaten by Christ and which he proclaimed to be his body and blood. There is only one Identity of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil. This Identity is what started Religion.
There was more to my point about Psychedelics are what gives us Consciousness in our bodies....than 'assisted' or added. They are molecularly different and Holy. That doesn't mean most people recognize that or won't fight hard to dismiss that. But that's the way its always been.

Peace
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I dont want to talk about your personal experiences which are obviously very important & meaningful to you.
I'm not interested in talking about them either. I'm only making the point that you seem to think you can't have mystical experience without taking some form of chemical assist. That relates to all mystical experiences, not just my own.

Also part of the reason is you want to believe something is wrong with me, when many cultures and people have believed it as well. (Not that I need a lot of people on my side).
What is wrong with you is your projection of your own personal fears on others, ascribing motives to them which in reality they don't have at all. It's simply a mirror projection of what you yourself are doing, making it reflect back to you as if it were their image you were seeing and not your own. None of what you assume about me is real.

So this alone is my question to you which you are dodging and avoided directly answering. Do you believe that you cannot have a mystical experience without taking some form of chemical assist into your bodies in order for them to happen? Yes, or No.

For the record, which I have stated in every post I've made so far which you seem to not be hearing for some reason, I do not deny the value of ingesting these in spiritual practice. I do see value in them. But unlike you, I recognize we can experience God in ways beyond what they can do, and that they are not necessary in order to have mystical experiences.

Again, do you believe that you can have equally, if not considerable more illuminating spiritual experiences without taking psychedelics? Yes, or No?

If you fail to answer that direct question again, there will be no further responses, as that is the answer offered by you avoiding saying it. You believe what works for you, is the one, and only true way for all others.

That is how the Christian Fundamentalist thinks, and it gets transferred over to whatever then next great "truth" they find, whether that is scientism as a neo-atheist, or someone who has discovered DMT, as "The way, the truth, and the life". It is all the same error, just dressed up with different robes.
 
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