Banned Mormon Cartoon

[Jane.Doe]

The only part of your reply I agree with is the last paragraph, "listen to what the Holy Spirit is telling you to believe", but you haven't understood what I was trying to say earlier.

I believe that the Holy Bible is God perfect inerrant Word, given to His elect people as a gift. Yes men wrote the Bible but God told them what to write so they didn't even know the meaning of what they were writing in many cases. They were simply recording what God was instructing them to write.

I believe God has said everything He wanted to say and the canon of scripture was completed and sealed with the last Words of Jesus to the apostle John. His last Words were that if anyone adds or takes away a single Word from His completed message that they would suffer eternal torment in hell fire.

You can't even fully process what God has already given us, let alone saying there could be more. It's actually sinful to suggest that extra revelation or communication exists apart from the completed canon of Holy Scripture as we have it.

Gods Word is the same today as it was 2000 years ago, it has been speaking the same message to every generation down the centuries and it will continue to speak the same message to every coming generation until Christ returns to judge the whole world and all those who ever lived will be raised to be judged.

Gods Word is alive and it';s the most powerful thing in the universe. It has the power to move mountains, so you must give it the utmost respect and obedience and fear. You must rebuke anyone who comes along and tries to add a single word to His completed Word. You must rebuke anyone as a false prophet (we stoned false prophets and we should still do it) who comes and claims that they heard extra revelation from God.

So be very careful who you believe, let every man be a liar and let God be true or you will suffer condemnation and damnation.

You spoke your interpretation of the Bible, and that's cool. Pro tip though: other people have different interpretations of the same verses. And your options are either:
1) try the bludgeon argue "I'm smarter and understand this better than you", or
2) Respectfully acknowledge the differences and move on with life/conversation.

 

[dianaiad]

How about the "star" Kolob? And that Adam and Eve were formerly heavenly beings (angels or archangels) who were sent to earth to establish the human race. Aren't those correct?

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Actually, the video claimed that Adam and Eve were formerly gods sent to earth.

I'm rather glad that the video called Kolob a star, though. It's about the only thing it got right...though it got everything ABOUT Kolob wrong.

Our beliefs are that we, all of us, lived as spirits with Father in Heaven before our births. None of us were angels or archangels....given that 'angel' means 'messenger, 'and is a job description, not a species classification.

So 'angel' is simply one of us with a message to give.

I strongly suggest that one go to LDS.org, or at LEAST to a real Mormon, to find out what our beliefs are.

Just as I don't go to Jack Chick for information about Catholics.

 

[sojourner]

I believe that the Holy Bible is God perfect inerrant Word, given to His elect people as a gift

What you believe is unimportant. What the bible is is what’s important.

Yes men wrote the Bible but God told them what to write so they didn't even know the meaning of what they were writing in many cases

I believe God has said everything He wanted to say and the canon of scripture was completed and sealed with the last Words of Jesus to the apostle John. His last Words were that if anyone adds or takes away a single Word from His completed message that they would suffer eternal torment in hell fire

...aaaand then there was 2 Peter, which was written later than John.

It's actually sinful to suggest that extra revelation or communication exists apart from the completed canon of Holy Scripture as we have it.

There exist several different canons of scripture. The Eastern churches do not all recognize Revelation, the RCC bible is larger than the Protestant, and the Ethiopian is largest. “The canon as we have it” is an amorphous thing.

Gods Word is the same today as it was 2000 years ago, it has been speaking the same message to every generation down the centuries and it will continue to speak the same message to every coming generation until Christ returns to judge the whole world and all those who ever lived will be raised to be judged

No. Different generations have interpreted things quite differently. In fact, the Bible is multivalent in nature. It contains not “a message,” but many messages.

You must rebuke anyone who comes along and tries to add a single word to His completed Word

the canon was really never meant to be “complete.”

 

[sojourner]

Just as I don't go to Jack Chick for information about Catholics

Man! No wonder I thought the Pope looked like The Tick...

 

[sojourner]

You must rebuke anyone who comes along and tries to add a single word to His completed Word. You must rebuke anyone as a false prophet (we stoned false prophets and we should still do it) who comes and claims that they heard extra revelation from God

What about Thomas, which all leading scholars assert is legit? It was lost until quite recently. It’s exclusion from the canon means that we have “taken away” from God’s word, and that God’s word is not “complete.” It’s inclusion would mean “adding to” what we already have. Thomas presents us with a conundrum, if we embrace your “logic.”

 

[sojourner]

Adam was Michael, for what it’s worth

So... just who rowed the boat ashore, then? Adam? God? Or Michael? And was Eve the sister who trimmed the sail? Or was it really Jackie? Or Mary?

 

[Katzpur]

I'm rather glad that the video called Kolob a star, though. It's about the only thing it got right...though it got everything ABOUT Kolob wrong.

Yeah, it got this right, too: "Mormons believe that Elohim is their Heavenly Father..." But, there was a comma where I showed ellipses, and they messed up the rest of the sentence by saying that "he lives with his many goddess wives." You wouldn't think it would be so hard to present accurate information, but some people just seem to be incapable of doing so.

 

[Jane.Doe]

You wouldn't think it would be so hard to present accurate information, but some people just seem to be incapable of doing so.

The goal of that video had nothing to do with presenting accurate information. Just about lying and hoping the audience is too dumb to check things out.

Really, I don't mind if people disagree with Latter-Day Saint beliefs. I totally respect it actually. But trying to "win" something by living and hoping people are dumb? ... don't got any respect for that.

 

[Skwim]

The goal of that video had nothing to do with presenting accurate information. Just about lying and hoping the audience is too dumb to check things out.

Not too dumb, but too uninterested enough.

Really, I don't mind if people disagree with Latter-Day Saint beliefs. I totally respect it actually. But trying to "win" something by living and hoping people are dumb? ... don't got any respect for that.

Hmmm, there's that "dumb" again.

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[Milton Platt]

It's only a request by the Mormon church that non-Mormons not call Mormons, "Mormons," or the Mormon Church the "Mormon Church." Mormon Church leader Russell Nelson has no power to disallow anyone outside its membership from calling Mormons, "Mormons," or the Mormon Church the "Mormon Church."



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As Willie the Shakespearesaid, "A rose by any other name......"

 

[PruePhillip]

No. Different generations have interpreted things quite differently. In fact, the Bible is multivalent in nature. It contains not “a message,” but many messages.
the canon was really never meant to be “complete.”

News to me. What messages are there, other than the one of Christ's redemption
and our role in obedience to Him?
And if a canon isn't complete then how can it be a canon?

 

[Dragonslayer]

You spoke your interpretation of the Bible, and that's cool. Pro tip though: other people have different interpretations of the same verses. And your options are either:
1) try the bludgeon argue "I'm smarter and understand this better than you", or
2) Respectfully acknowledge the differences and move on with life/conversation.

The Bible says that the only people who will be able to rightly discern Holy Scripture, are those who have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. The rest can be super intelligent and super wise but they will all go to the grave never having truly understood Scripture.

The Holy Scriptures were recorded in a code that only those who have the Holy Spirit indwelling them can decode, the rest are sealed for damnation. Gods Word is a Spiritual message, so it can only be rightly discerned spiritually. The Bible says Gods Word is foolishness to those who are perishing.

Gods saints always arrive at the same conclusion, we always agree about the meaning of Scripture. We have brethren from every tribe and tongue from all over the world, who lived in different centuries and who never meet each other yet every single one of them arrived at the same conclusions about the meaning of all then scriptures.

The fact that we all believe exactly the same thing, yet we all lived in different centuries and different parts of the world and we all interpreted the scriptures precisely the same confirms that all of Gods Saints have been illuminated by the Holy Spirit and we are the only ones who posses the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Dragonslayer]

What about Thomas, which all leading scholars assert is legit? It was lost until quite recently. It’s exclusion from the canon means that we have “taken away” from God’s word, and that God’s word is not “complete.” It’s inclusion would mean “adding to” what we already have. Thomas presents us with a conundrum, if we embrace your “logic.”

I'm not a Bible scholar so I don't know why they didn't include Thomas's book, I would conclude that it wasn't inspired by God because we believe that the Bible exists as it is by Gods will. It's a miracle that it exists at all, as many wicked rulers have tried to destroy it down the centuries and it cost many Saints their lives to bring it to us.

We don't believe in fate or anything happening by chance, we believe that God preordained everything that happens to fulfill His intended will. So even the Jewish holocaust served to fulfill His will and every war and murder all work together to bring about His ultimate goal.

We believe the Bible doctrine of predestination and election, where God is the One who chooses to save some and leave others in their sin and man has nothing to do with salvation. The Bible says that God wrote the names of all those He would save before He created the world and we believe what the Bible says.

You are welcome to correct me if I ever claim something that's not Biblical, a wise man will love you for correcting him but a fool will hate you for it.

 

[sojourner]

News to me. What messages are there, other than the one of Christ's redemption
and our role in obedience to Him?
And if a canon isn't complete then how can it be a canon?

The Jews would certainly differ with you on that meaning. The Bible wasn’t written as a coherent whole, nor edited, nor compiled as such. Each book stands alone in its own story — even the gospels have very different stories to tell about Jesus.

The canon was originally a list of “This is the stuff that’s ok to read in church.” It was not meant to be exclusionary of any other religious writings. In fact, there are several sanctioned canons, each containing slightly different books. And the canon remained a fairly fluid thing until it was finally closed. Scholars — if not ecclesial authorities — have all but reopened the canon to include Thomas as legit.

 

[sojourner]

I'm not a Bible scholar so I don't know why they didn't include Thomas's book, I would conclude that it wasn't inspired by God because we believe that the Bible exists as it is by Gods will. It's a miracle that it exists at all, as many wicked rulers have tried to destroy it down the centuries and it cost many Saints their lives to bring it to us

And therein lies the problem with many of your posts: you’re not a bible scholar, yet you make “biblical claims” of doctrine as if you were one. That’s a slippery undertaking, and it’s why those who formulate doctrine are ... Bible scholars.
Thomas was lost at the time the canon was closed. It is legit — it solves some exegetical problems with the Synoptics — it was a bad accident and certainly not “planned by God.”

We don't believe in fate or anything happening by chance, we believe that God preordained everything that happens to fulfill His intended will

Calvinist hokum.

So even the Jewish holocaust served to fulfill His will and every war and murder all work together to bring about His ultimate goal

This may be one of the most heartless, heinous things I’ve ever read on this forum. It’s cruel and it absolutely misrepresents who God is and how God lives us. You’ve just managed to cram a whole shoe store into your mouth.

We believe the Bible doctrine of predestination and election, where God is the One who chooses to save some and leave others in their sin and man has nothing to do with salvation

More Calvinist hokum that presents God as heartless and renders Christ’s sacrifice ineffective.

 

[Katzpur]

News to me. What messages are there, other than the one of Christ's redemption
and our role in obedience to Him?
And if a canon isn't complete then how can it be a canon?

Let's take a brief look at the evolution of the biblical canon. In 1740, a list of the canonical books compiled in Rome just prior to 200 A.D. was discovered in the Ambrosian Library in Milan, Italy. Missing from the Accepted canon in 200 A.D. were Hebrews, James, 1 Peter and 2 Peter. Only two of John's letters were considered canonical, not three, but we don't know for sure which two. The Apocalypse of Peter and the Wisdom of Solomon, however, were included.

Eusebius of Caesara, one of the most notable Church historians to have ever lived, described (in about 300 A.D.) a canon which included only twenty-seven of the books in today's New Testament. Hebrews, James, and 2 Peter where described as questionable, as were Jude and Revelation. In the fourth century, St. Gregory of Nazianzus continued to reject Revelation and states, "You have all. If there is any any besides these, it is not among the genuine [books]." The canon he set forth was ratified some three centuries later.

The Greek Codex Claromontanus, one of the most significant New Testament manuscripts, contains a list of the canonical books of the fourth century. (The manuscript itself originates in the sixth century, however most scholars believe that the actual list dates back to the Alexandrian Church from two centuries earlier.) That list did not exclude Philippians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians or Hebrews. But guess what? It does include the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas.

Other books that are mentioned by name in today's Bibles cannot be found there at all. One example is Paul's epistle to the Laodiceans. Why was it less authoritative than his other epistles? It's mentioned in Colossians 4:16. Obviously, it was considered authoritative at the time it was written. Paul also wrote an additional epistle to the Ephesians and another to the Corinthians. When did his "apostolic authorship" come into question? Jude, too, wrote another epistle. What reason is there to believe it was so unreliable as to have been intentionally omitted from the today's canon? Or maybe it was just lost.

If we go to the Old Testament, there are even more books that are missing. These were written by "Samuel the seer," "Nathan the prophet," "Shemaiah the prophet" and others. 2 Chronicles mentions many of these by name. Why haven't we gotten rid of 2 Chronicles by now, since it references so many prophets whose work was apparently not the word of God after all?

How people can pretend that "the Bible" as we know it today (and I'm not even talking about the hundreds of different translations, but the books that constitute the canon) was somehow signed, sealed and delivered to us exactly as God wanted it to be is beyond me. Of course, this doesn't mean that we should toss the Bible out in its entirety. We should simply recognize it for what it is -- a recorded record of God's dealings with mankind in one part of the world. It never claims to be complete. As a matter of fact, it claims quite the opposite. In the end of John, we're told that Jesus Christ did so many things as part of His ministry, that had they even been recorded, they'd more than have filled all of the books in the world. That's quite a statement, and to me, it's saying that we should love the Bible for what it is, but not try to make it into something it isn't, or even claims to be.

 

[dianaiad]

Yeah, it got this right, too: "Mormons believe that Elohim is their Heavenly Father..." But, there was a comma where I showed ellipses, and they messed up the rest of the sentence by saying that "he lives with his many goddess wives." You wouldn't think it would be so hard to present accurate information, but some people just seem to be incapable of doing so.

Some of 'em go to great lengths to avoid doing so.

it's a 'type.' It's not about Mormonism, per se, actually. It's about them. They will be just as idiotic and deliberately deceitful about anybody they target. I see no difference between these guys and the anti-Catholics, the anti-Jehovah's Witnesses, the ant-semites, the anti-(insert target group here) and the anti-Mormons.

Just the name of the target.

ONE thing, however, is helpful about this sort of thing. Once one realizes just how accurate they aren't about one thing, one can pretty much depend that they will be just as biased, stupid and wrong about everything else. So, when one runs into something like this, no matter what belief system is being 'discussed,' one can be assured that whatever is being claimed--is wrong. It's a sort of backwards way to learn anything about anybody, but hey.....

 

[PruePhillip]

The Jews would certainly differ with you on that meaning. The Bible wasn’t written as a coherent whole, nor edited, nor compiled as such. Each book stands alone in its own story — even the gospels have very different stories to tell about Jesus.

The canon was originally a list of “This is the stuff that’s ok to read in church.” It was not meant to be exclusionary of any other religious writings. In fact, there are several sanctioned canons, each containing slightly different books. And the canon remained a fairly fluid thing until it was finally closed. Scholars — if not ecclesial authorities — have all but reopened the canon to include Thomas as legit.

The canon, by definition, cannot be re-opened.
Anyone who thinks, for instance, that the "Gospel" of Thomas is actually
gospel doesn't understand what the Gospel is.
It was not included in the canon for the simple reason that people back
then didn't see it as being authentic - not so much the church but people
in general.
I posit there was the closing of the OT after Ezra and Nehemia (thus
Maccabees wasn't included) and there was a closing of the NT after the
disciple John died.

 

[sojourner]

The canon, by definition, cannot be re-opened.
Anyone who thinks, for instance, that the "Gospel" of Thomas is actually
gospel doesn't understand what the Gospel is.
It was not included in the canon for the simple reason that people back
then didn't see it as being authentic - not so much the church but people
in general.
I posit there was the closing of the OT after Ezra and Nehemia (thus
Maccabees wasn't included) and there was a closing of the NT after the
disciple John died.

And yet, the best scholars consider Thomas to be a gospel. It was not included because when the canon was closed, it was unknown. Maccabees is included in several canons, including the Roman and Ethiopian. 2 Peter was written after John. Some class work might help the notions that you’ve let fester into fact.

 

[Jane.Doe]

The Bible says that the only people who will be able to rightly discern Holy Scripture, are those who have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. The rest can be super intelligent and super wise but they will all go to the grave never having truly understood Scripture.

The Holy Scriptures were recorded in a code that only those who have the Holy Spirit indwelling them can decode, the rest are sealed for damnation. Gods Word is a Spiritual message, so it can only be rightly discerned spiritually. The Bible says Gods Word is foolishness to those who are perishing.

Gods saints always arrive at the same conclusion, we always agree about the meaning of Scripture. We have brethren from every tribe and tongue from all over the world, who lived in different centuries and who never meet each other yet every single one of them arrived at the same conclusions about the meaning of all then scriptures.

The fact that we all believe exactly the same thing, yet we all lived in different centuries and different parts of the world and we all interpreted the scriptures precisely the same confirms that all of Gods Saints have been illuminated by the Holy Spirit and we are the only ones who posses the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Again: what you presented here is one of many interpretations of the Bible. Many people, after many years of study, have come to many different conclusions, all based off the same verses. There is no universal agreement at all.

Now, you can of course believe that one interpretation is right and the others are wrong-- that's perfectly in your rights to do so. I myself have my own beliefs in that regard. But you or I or anyone else is never going to convince someone of that via arguing (which I've seen countless people try to do). Rather, Truth is testified of by the Spirit, so the best any of us can do it to be loving & kind to each other (which is the opposite of arguing), and let the Holy Spirit do it's thing when the time is right.