Islam, the unexploded bomb

[Jim]

Or maybe Muslims could free themselves from religious or non religious prejudices against others.

I think that needs to happen too, but that won’t do anything to stop defamation campaigns against them, to make excuses for cruelty, violence and oppression against them.

 

[Niblo]

Here's one translation of 2:191. You can easily find more, but this one seems representative.

Context is indeed everything. Muslims pilgrims wanted to know if they could retaliate when attacked within the sacred precincts in Mecca. In these verses they are given permission to fight back wherever they encounter their attackers, in the precinct or outside it:

‘Fight in Allāh’s cause against those who fight you, but do not overstep (walā taʿtadū) the limits: Allāh does not love those who overstep the limits. Kill them wherever you encounter them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, for persecution is more serious than killing. Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they fight you there. If they do fight you, kill them – this is what such disbelievers deserve – but if they stop, then Allāh is most forgiving and merciful. Fight them until there is no more persecution, and worship is devoted to Allāh. If they cease hostilities, there can be no (further) hostility, except towards aggressors.’ (Al-Baqara: 190-193)

M.A.S. Haleem reminds us that the Arabic command ‘walā taʿtadū’ is: ‘so general that commentators have agreed that it includes prohibition of starting hostilities, fighting non-combatants, disproportionate response to aggression, etc.’ (‘The Qur’an’).

There are two timeless messages in these verses. The first is that folk, when attacked, are entitled to defend themselves, even if this can be done only by the use of deadly force. The second is that all retaliation must cease the moment an aggressor stops their attack.

 

[England my lionheart]

I think that needs to happen too, but that won’t do anything to stop defamation campaigns against them, to make excuses for cruelty, violence and oppression against them.

To them it's "defamation" to me it's criticism and from what I've seen the cruelty and violence is pretty much blue on blue.

 

[LuisDantas]

The problem is not the Koran. If I read the Koran I do not go around chopping of heads of non-Muslims
The problem is the arrogant cruel fanatic Muslims who, blinded by hate without compassion, want to kill

The Qur'an is very much a problem when it is not countered and course-corrected by either the discernment and/or ignorance of the actual contents of that book by well-meaning Muslims or the absence of a political and pseudo-religious structure that raises it to the level of god-given commandment.

 

[icehorse]

If anyone is to blame for anything, it is persons who failed to teach what the Bible says, or to hide its message.

I appreciate your sincere response, and we now have many points to juggle at the same time.

As I read your posts, I think perhaps a good theme is that you have your INTERPRETATION of the bible. That's fine, and it sounds like an interpretation I could largely agree with. But the point is that many Christians have different interpretations, and they use the bible as a sort of hammer to do evil things:

- In AIDS-ridden Africa the church worked against the use of condoms.
- Many religious people declare gays "born a sin"
- The church shields its clerics from being punished for systemic pedophilia
- Religious people vote to allow corporal punishment in schools. Your counter argument is a false choice, an either-or that ignores more moderate and effective approaches.
- Christian loud mouths have made the teaching of evolution in the US a huge problem. A clear violation of secularism.

So the problem is that MANY people use the scripture to achieve bad ends.

 

[paarsurrey]

Imagine that there is an unexploded bomb or mine or some such buried in your back yard. You know you must walk carefully to avoid triggering an explosion, that the bomb might go off by itself, or that the brat next door might chuck a stone over the fence, blowing up your yard.

Most Muslims are good people, but they follow a religion that explicitly calls for the extermination of non-muslims. Fortunately almost everyone is more moral than their religion, so that is rarely a problem.

However, the chance of an explosion is always there. For example when the metaphorical brat throws a cartoon over the metaphorical fence, the result is an explosion of threats, murderous riots and killings.

How can Muslims allay the suspicion of themselves that this situation produces?

"religion that explicitly calls for the extermination of non-muslims" Unquote.

It is not correct. There is no such teaching in Quran- the first and the foremost source of guidance of Islam/Quran/Muhammad.

Please quote from Quran to support one's point of view.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Please show where does it say in the Quran that Muslims must exterminate non-Muslims?

Thanks for one's appropriate question.
Regards

 

[icehorse]

Context is indeed everything. Muslims pilgrims wanted to know if they could retaliate when attacked within the sacred precincts in Mecca. In these verses they are given permission to fight back wherever they encounter their attackers, in the precinct or outside it:

Bingo! So one way we could look at the Quran is that it gives Muslims 500 specific contexts in which non-Muslims can be bad guys.

Humans are pattern matching animals. It's what we do. If you tell me 500 ways in which non-Muslims are bad guys, I WILL, because I'm human, generalize those 500 individual lessons into one big pattern.

 

[Niblo]

Bingo! So one way we could look at the Quran is that it gives Muslims 500 specific contexts in which non-Muslims can be bad guys.

Humans are pattern matching animals. It's what we do. If you tell me 500 ways in which non-Muslims are bad guys, I WILL, because I'm human, generalize those 500 individual lessons into one big pattern.

Why have you ignored the rest of my post?

 

[icehorse]

Why have you ignored the rest of my post?

I didn't ignore it. I understand that you've provided some context for that one verse.

I'm asking you to zoom out and see the bigger picture. Do you understand my point about us humans being pattern matchers?

 

[Niblo]

I didn't ignore it. I understand that you've provided some context for that one verse.

I'm asking you to zoom out and see the bigger picture. Do you understand my point about us humans being pattern matchers?

You quoted 2:191 in an attempt to show that the Qur'an justifies the indiscriminate killing of non-Muslims. The purpose of my post was to correct this notion; and to do so by placing the verse in its setting. Whether or not I have been successful is for others to decide. This has nothing to do with pattern matching, and everything to do with honest reporting.

Even without context the message of the verses is clear:

If attacked, you are entitled to defend yourself, even if this can be done only by the use of deadly force. But all retaliation must cease the moment your assailant stops their attack.

 

[paarsurrey]

I see religions as simply darwinistic systems acting as organisms that will fight for resources defend their kind and provide a mechanism and structure for growth, breeding and advancement of their cells ie people. They are all natural experiments. There will be conflict as societies have huge inertia and are difficult to change direction when they interact. The middle east has been a killing field for thousands of years - an example of the perpetual clash of cultures.

Newer more enlightened systems have evolved in the west such as the EU, UK, Canada, Australia, NZ etc where traditional religion is fading and rationalism succeeding. Many corner churches are now replaced with McDonalds - position, position, position!. Religious states such as Iran, Saudi, even Israel and the USA are losing the battle of retaining the dogmatic religions that they were based on and gradually evolving to newer styles. Women in Saudi are now allowed to drive cars, but only with a male or HIS permission - its a small step forward.

The internet has linked the world like nothing before it, as revolutionary as the Gutenberg Press. Much of the 19th-20th century colonialist third world poverty has evolved to middle class affluence, not through religion but trade and economics. This has happened through China and Asia, and is now happening in Africa.

It is only through study and science the real truths can be revealed, where mathematics, physics and chemistry rule instead of mythical beasts and gods. Most are moving forward toward some common place, but in every group there exist the small but loud groups of fanatic luddites that believe the old systems are still the only relevant system today and are therefore dangerous as they drift further from the main stream. The Islamic Taliban and ISIS, The Christian Brethren, The Jewish Hasidic Traditionalists, etc These are all religious "BOMBS" so not just Islam.

These social experiments are a long never ending process, but the world today actually seems to be more united and generally all heading in the same direction.
But also remember, many of the worlds biggest states need war to support their huge weapons manufacturing industries, that are an integral part of their exports and wealth. Use a bomb once and you need another one the next day.

The emergence of a new breed of alpha male, egocentric, narcissistic, national leaders USA Trump, Turkey Urdawan, China Xi Ping, Philippines Gutierrez, Russia Putin, North Korea Kim Jung Un, many of whom have basically declared themselves virtual permanent dictators is of serious concern as the lives of millions are governed by the whims of one with no transparency. South China Sea?

BTW I consider Communist, Socialist and Capitalist societies as neoreligious ideologies.

What it will end up like, deep into the future is anyone's guess.
Where will all these interactive social experiments end up?
Will these religions survive, merge or become extinct?
Is Islam the only "bomb"
Cheers

"The Islamic Taliban and ISIS, The Christian Brethren, The Jewish Hasidic Traditionalists, etc These are all religious "BOMBS" so not just Islam." Unquote.

Together with the Anti-Religion* Atheism people, yes.
Regards
____________
*"The truth is that there is a new breed of militant atheists who are capable of being as unreasoning as the most bone-headed creationist. Their intolerance is a strange mirror reflection of the bigotry of religious extremists."
This new breed of militant atheists are as intolerant as any religious fundamentalists | Daily Mail Online

 

[icehorse]

This has nothing to do with pattern matching, and everything to do with honest reporting.

We might have to agree to disagree on this point. I've studied cognitive science and I have been applying it effectively in my profession (technical book publishing), for many years. I can tell you that when a normal healthy person reads the Quran, they will absolutely come to the conclusion that Muslims are supposed to despise non-Muslims. For the sake of discussion I can grant you that each and every time the Quran besmirches non-Muslims it's within a specific context. That simply does not matter to human brains. Human brains WILL create patterns. And one of the main takeaway ideas in the Quran is that non-Muslims are to be despised. The Quran delivers variations on that message over 500 times. The pattern is clear, the details don't matter.

 

[paarsurrey]

I'm sorry, this point has been asked and answered many times on this forum. This feels like a LMGTFY moment. Of course the Quran says this. More specifically, non Muslims are offered three options:

- convert
- be subjugated
- be killed

Start with 2:191

Please quote Quran Verse 2:191, with the verses in the context, some preceding and some following for correct understanding.
This shows that:

• One has not read the Quran from cover to cover.
• One has not read even the whole chapter to which the verse belongs.
• One has not even read the verses in the context.

You will please appreciate that this is not a correct approach.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Some of us will not be brainwashed.

Because they have been newly brainwashed by Anti-Religion.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Please direct me to some of these. I would like to have a look at them. The anti-non-muslim stuff seems pretty common in the Quran.

One can get corrected freshly by quoting verse Quran Verse 2:191, with the verses in the context, some preceding and some following for correct understanding, please.

Regards
_____________

#74

 

[paarsurrey]

Sure, but they are all using the same "holy book". While it may be benign for some, others can use it to justify atrocities. Therein lies the danger.

It takes just one deranged imam to send thousands raging into the streets rioting and killing.

By the way, I'm not an admirer of " holy books" generally. I prefer reason and good will. The ancient Romans, when laws failed to settle a dispute, looked to "what a reasonable person of good will would decide" or some such wording (memory is becoming dim with age).

My impression is that reliance on these books brings atrophy of ability to reason about morality etc. I remember reading the people doing development work in Afghanistan found their efforts futile unless they could be presented in a Quranic context.

Does one belong to some an Anti-Religion World-View, please?
Regards

 

[Niblo]

We might have to agree to disagree on this point. I've studied cognitive science and I have been applying it effectively in my profession (technical book publishing), for many years. I can tell you that when a normal healthy person reads the Quran, they will absolutely come to the conclusion that Muslims are supposed to despise non-Muslims. For the sake of discussion I can grant you that each and every time the Quran besmirches non-Muslims it's within a specific context. That simply does not matter to human brains. Human brains WILL create patterns. And one of the main takeaway ideas in the Quran is that non-Muslims are to be despised. The Quran delivers variations on that message over 500 times. The pattern is clear, the details don't matter.

There is only one thing worse than a guy who misrepresents a text - any text- and that's the guy who refuses to come clean when found out. But thanks for your time.

 

[paarsurrey]

Islam's problem is it doesn't allow criticism or innovation so it's stuck in a 7th century mythology and sometimes it seems Muhammed is praised as much as their god.

Like Christianity it's a very powerful political tool,politics and religion are peas from the same pod,the difference now is your unlikely to be burned at the stake in Christianity whereas apostasy in Islam is harshly treated.

Although there are 1.6 billion or so Muslims there are different schools and sects so a broad brush cannot be used but its easy to see the flaws in their book and so called prophet,its obvious why Muslims can't.

Is Islam an unexploded bomb?, I think it's a dud because the bomb has too many parts to explode, rather it let's off a few fireworks now and then, it is though a violent religion, its a common theme in the abrahmics religions Imo.

"but its easy to see the flaws in their book" Unquote

If one has read Quran from cover to cover then please quote one verse not many with the verses in context, some preceding and some following to support one's point of view that Quran has any flaw. If one does not do that or one gives a list that will show that one is just copy/pasting from some opposing site and one's post is not based on any experience with Quran.

Regards

 

[Ellen Brown]

And I think more important, by their very lives being refutation in action. And part of this is avoiding religious tribalism. Christians need to call out the actions of those who are negative as do Jews and Muslims. And as I look around, I see this happening.

Of course, the media feeds on promoting feelings of fear and anger to drive people to consume commercials. But stories like the following are the kind of thing that is out there if one looks Jew, Christian, Muslim: 'See the Beloved everywhere'

By in large, it seems clear to me that Christians are the more murderous lot than anyone. Of course one would need to diligently study un massaged history to discover that.