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Banned from Heaven

Earthling

David Henson
Just for clarity, what type of behaviour is the line around getting to heaven or not,bin your opinion?
I can understand some form of conditional love, but it would depend on the type of conditions as to whether such a thing appears consistent with humanity, IMHO.

First of all, the Bible makes it clear that heaven wasn't created for man. Flesh can't inherit heaven, as it was created for Jehovah God to inhabit along with the myriad of spirit creatures. Only a few (144,000) will go to heaven in spirit form. Though, the kingdom of heaven includes earth, once things are settled.

The line around getting there? Not familiar with that term, but I suppose you mean what does it take? God's undeserved kindness. Nothing we can do puts us in a position where we "deserve" the possibility. When you get the meaning of the Bible as a whole, harmonious from Genesis to Revelation, it tells about Satan's challenge to Jehovah's sovereignty. To be keenly aware of the significance of this, and live accordingly is what, I think, God is looking for in inhabitants of Paradise. Not those who, like Adam, would disrespect or unappreciated that.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
First of all, the Bible makes it clear that heaven wasn't created for man. Flesh can't inherit heaven, as it was created for Jehovah God to inhabit along with the myriad of spirit creatures. Only a few (144,000) will go to heaven in spirit form. Though, the kingdom of heaven includes earth, once things are settled.

The line around getting there? Not familiar with that term, but I suppose you mean what does it take? God's undeserved kindness. Nothing we can do puts us in a position where we "deserve" the possibility. When you get the meaning of the Bible as a whole, harmonious from Genesis to Revelation, it tells about Satan's challenge to Jehovah's sovereignty. To be keenly aware of the significance of this, and live accordingly is what, I think, God is looking for in inhabitants of Paradise. Not those who, like Adam, would disrespect or unappreciated that.

You're a JW?

Hmm...welp, if there is a limit to how many spirits can enter, and you believe in free will, I'd assume you can entertain the possibility of someone living their life by God's rules and not getting in?
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
How would you actually know whether it is simple or not or what God needs to do? If God is an eternal Being and you are a finite creature, how could you possibly suppose to know?.

Well, I do know what is immoral when I see it-- and I fully expect a being worthy of the title "god" to ACT like one.

Instead of being what is basically a bully. Infinite torture-- regardless of who the victims are? Is immoral.

There is absolutely zero way to spin that into other than infinite torture: an evil and immoral act.

The scriptures state that the lake of fire was created for the devil and the fallen angels. Humans only end up there when they reject God's goodness and love, choosing to follow satan.

That does not make your case batter, in fact, it makes if much-much worse!

Satan would be a shining example of god's absolute failure as a God. Free Will has nothing to do with this, either.

Supreme Being would have forseen the problems, and halted them before they got out of hand to the point of needing an Infinite Torture Pit in the first place!
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
The freewill is now. Those who freely choose God and heaven now will have no desire to change their minds in heaven. It will be one's own desire to always say as Jesus said, "Your will be done", not only out of love for God, but because God's will always brings goodness and joy.

So, no free will in "heaven", then? What's the point of it, if it's just going to be stripped away forever?

Again this makes no sense, and is immoral: If god wanted robots, why didn't god just create robots at the outset, and skip all the hell, torture, suffering and whatnot?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Let's just say there is a heaven as most Christians and Muslims believe.

If you had a loved one who never made it, (a son or daughter perhaps) who was permanently banned, would it still be heaven for you?

Perhaps the one who can not make it to heaven is one who refuses to love and eventually can not be loved.
 
Let's just say there is a heaven as most Christians and Muslims believe.

If you had a loved one who never made it, (a son or daughter perhaps) who was permanently banned, would it still be heaven for you?
We will forget all of our relatives and friends forever, if they don't go to heaven. God will wipe the memory of them from our minds so we will never miss them, see God always has a plan to deal with every situation.
 

Earthling

David Henson
You're a JW?

No. I am not nor have I ever been a JW.

Hmm...welp, if there is a limit to how many spirits can enter, and you believe in free will, I'd assume you can entertain the possibility of someone living their life by God's rules and not getting in?

Who, other than Christ, can live their life by God's rules in a system of inherited sin? Also, did Moses step foot in the promised land? No.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Yeah, its a joke, if you call a donut a cake.

Subjective jokes are only funny in the context.
Your opinions that dont match things, makes telling a joke about a donut, your calling it a cake. Doesnt make sense unless you call donuts, cake.

Lighten up, Sunshine. :)

It's just not that important.

Besides: Have you never eaten a cake doughnut? They do exist, you know: Ask your favorite doughnut maker!

As for "don't match things?" Well, Sunshine, that's just your opinion, isn't it?

See the irony? No?

Yeah.... theists are too often devoid of a funny-bone I guess.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Let's just say there is a heaven as most Christians and Muslims believe.

If you had a loved one who never made it, (a son or daughter perhaps) who was permanently banned, would it still be heaven for you?

Nope, not at all, all because whether it be
( a son or daughter or anyone else) if they are permanently banned from heaven.
Their every existence is erase from memory. So I would have no memory of them in heaven at all.
Otherwise, you really don't believe God would have people walking around in heaven sadden over someone who didn't make it. Heaven is a place of rejoicing,
Not a place of sadness.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Let's just say there is a heaven as most Christians and Muslims believe.

If you had a loved one who never made it, (a son or daughter perhaps) who was permanently banned, would it still be heaven for you?
That the question is even possible lampshades IMO a core flaw of the idea.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Irony is you not getting jokes, then saying others aren't humorous.

You dont even get obvious, jokes, like the one,
Where you said, -that post is meant for people with a sense of humour-[paraphrasing....
Then I said
'But you replied to my post"
...
Get it? It's a joke.
I'm saying, I dont have a sense of humor.

Its a joke.

My bad, then! It's not always clear when someone is making a funny, with just words.

Mea Culpa.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
What is important? Faith? Agnostic? You're very vague. Whats important. You didn't say anything.

"It's important"..
Ok!,,,,

Well, now. If you want a discussion on "faith" and "agnosticism", we can do that.

Once, way-way back in the Day, there were a large group of internet commentators, who (incorrectly as it turns out) saw "agnosticism" as "atheists who were not 100% certain with respect to gods".

These people had been lied to, for so long, by theists, about what the word "atheist" meant, that they looked around for an alternative to describe themselves.

They incorrectly thought that to be an atheist, meant to believe there were no gods. And looking for a word that was not quite that Faithful? Latched onto agnosticism.

It was a natural mistake, and one that is still on-going even today.

Due to the aforementioned theists' continuing to spread the lie about what an atheist is.

So, this group would say if asked, "do you believe in god", "no, I'm an agnostic".

When in reality, they were atheists all along! They just had a false definition hammered into their heads by theists.

.....

It should be noted, however, that you can be an atheist, and an agnostic* and still believe for certain there are no gods.

You can also be an atheist, and agnostic, and be absolutely uncertain about gods' existing or not existing.

Just as you can be a theist and an agnostic, and have certain belief in gods or a god.

Also, there are theists who are also agnostics, but lack certain belief in god(s) existence. (Mother Teresa was one such.. .she admitted she was not sure if her god even existed, in her personal diary)

* Agnostic is distinct from atheist, as I learned much later. Agnosticism is addressing a different question than atheist.

An atheist is addressing the claim: "god(s) exist!" with "unless you have proof, I do not believe that"

An agnostic is addressing the statement: "we can know god(s)" or "we can know about god(s)". A agnostic is expressing doubt about such claims--

Indeed, it ought to be noted that the word "god" is almost devoid of useful meaning.

Why? Because there are nearly 8 billion different meanings! No two are 100%, exactly alike...!
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Nope, not at all, all because whether it be
( a son or daughter or anyone else) if they are permanently banned from heaven.
Their every existence is erase from memory. So I would have no memory of them in heaven at all.
Otherwise, you really don't believe God would have people walking around in heaven sadden over someone who didn't make it. Heaven is a place of rejoicing,
Not a place of sadness.

That is quite sad, to have a loved one simply ripped out of the mind of the poor believer.

I think I'd rather be in hell-- than to have ALL my memories of my most cherished friends, just ripped away as if they never were!

Your god is NOT good!
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Of course it doesn't state it quite like that. It is however how many people imagine it to be. It tends to be seen as the final victory of an "us vs. them" mentality, with the winners with the golden crown, no longer troubled by the sinners who are not us.

Not everyone thinks of heaven like that. But many do to the point it's that noticeable for me to call it out.


Wouldn't you say that is what God is now? Why can't we just access the Love of God right now and experience that freedom from suffering, here in this world? Why do we need the bad stuff to go away, in order to know the Peace of God now?


I think you are speaking of sociopaths, not just your average person who has found themselves in dire straits and not been able to find their way out and end up in places where they stumble and fall, and even end up harming others in the process. The true sociopath who is severed from any form of human emotion or empathy, is very, very rare. Not the average sinner, like any one of us.

So if those are missing in heaven, they pretty much are missing here too, considering how comparatively rare they are. Unless you think heaven is getting rid of anyone who isn't a perfect Christian? That image of heaven, is unpalatable in the extreme. It is even Christian.


Are you sure? The Love of God, when experienced firsthand, pretty much vaporizes any ill we've held in our hearts. I'm pretty sure the experience of God changes everyone, radically.


Sure. Any darkness disappears in the Light of God. Anything impure will be purified. Any sin we bring with us, will be no more. That's not the same thing as God throwing people into hell.


I don't think of heaven as a place of "us over them" or think most Christians do either. Instead it is a place of love, peace, joy, beauty, creativity, and freedom, especially freedom from my own sinful attitudes. A friend and I discuss this often and look forward to the time when we will be free from the sin and self-centered attitudes we still deal with in the flesh. Free to be all God created us to be. Sure we know peace now and we are being transformed now, but in eternity the freedom from sin will be complete.

I have said often that God does not refuse people entrance into heaven, much less throw them into hell. Maybe you have missed my perspective or what the Bible reveals on the subject. The only ones thrown into the eternal lake of fire is satan and the demons. All are invited into heaven, but those who reject God's offer of eternal love, peace, and joy choosing instead the sinful. self-centered way of satan follow him there by their choice. God does not force anyone into heaven.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "ordinary sin" as if some sin is okay. The scriptures are clear that all sin is harmful, damaging, and a violation of God's perfection and holiness. Nevertheless, I am confident that God understands various degrees of sin, ignorance or evil and a person's heart attitude.and motivations and is capable of dealing with each person justly.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
So, no free will in "heaven", then? What's the point of it, if it's just going to be stripped away forever?

Again this makes no sense, and is immoral: If god wanted robots, why didn't god just create robots at the outset, and skip all the hell, torture, suffering and whatnot?

Obviously God did not want robots or the world would not be the way it is with all the wrong choices apart fron His will and the sad, destructive consequences on display. But real love involves choice and that is what God has allowed each of us to have. Those in heaven, as I said already, made the choice to be there and love God. The moment one trust Jesus and is born again the transformation process begins and never ends until one is in eternity. One who knows the love of God and desires to be changed into the image of Christ will have no desire to ever choose anything other.Yet, I think heaven will be filled with endless opportunities for healthy, creative, adventurous, choices which have nothing to do with sin or self-centeredness.

But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Corinthians 3:18

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Romans 8:28-30
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Satan would be a shining example of god's absolute failure as a God. Free Will has nothing to do with this, either.

Supreme Being would have forseen the problems, and halted them before they got out of hand to the point of needing an Infinite Torture Pit in the first place!

No God has not failed. Satan is a clear example of a creature trying to be God, who isn't God. Very sad and destructive. But it is a lesson we all need to see and understand. Freedom can be abused.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
The moment one trust Jesus and is born again the transformation process begins and never ends until one is in eternity.

Unless, naturally, there is no reciprocation (as in my case) and one eventually learns that "trust in jesus" was 100% misplaced...

I trusted for years, decades even. Then I learned I had been misled...

Oh well. I'm not the only exception to your claim, above, am I?
 
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