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Banned from Heaven

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I have no idea how God will remove pain, but trust He will. I doubt it will involve erasing memories, though. I do know that the benevolent, loving Creator God gives each of my loved ones multiple opportunities for eternal life, but the choice is up to them. I don't expect God to force them into heaven against their will.

Who's forcing? All this god of yours needed to do? Is not create hell. Simple.

Why only the two choices, anyway? That seems quite weak, to me, and rather uncreative.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
So essentially, heaven is just like it is here on earth - except, that in heaven you won't have be burdened by those who struggle with life and are often unpleasant. You don't "have to" love them and hold them with compassion anymore because they'll just be gone. The Love of God which extends to all of creation, can just be focused in only one spot now, where all the good people are.

It can easily be understood that way.
No, that is not quite the way the scriptures express it.
God is in the process of creating a new heaven and earth where there will be no more pain, struggling, destruction, or anything unpleasant. Yet, there are those who do become so hard to the point of falling into the category of evil. You cannot change an evil abuser with love or compassion. Evil will not be present in the eternal heavenly realm.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
No, that is not quite the way the scriptures express it.
God is in the process of creating a new heaven and earth where there will be no more pain, struggling, destruction, or anything unpleasant. Yet, there are those who do become so hard to the point of falling into the category of evil. You cannot change an evil abuser with love or compassion. Evil will not be present in the eternal heavenly realm.

So. No free will, then? Okay. Why not go with that one first? Instead of what we have now?
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Who's forcing? All this god of yours needed to do? Is not create hell. Simple.

Why only the two choices, anyway? That seems quite weak, to me, and rather uncreative.
How would you actually know whether it is simple or not or what God needs to do? If God is an eternal Being and you are a finite creature, how could you possibly suppose to know?
The scriptures state that the lake of fire was created for the devil and the fallen angels. Humans only end up there when they reject God's goodness and love, choosing to follow satan.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
So. No free will, then? Okay. Why not go with that one first? Instead of what we have now?
The freewill is now. Those who freely choose God and heaven now will have no desire to change their minds in heaven. It will be one's own desire to always say as Jesus said, "Your will be done", not only out of love for God, but because God's will always brings goodness and joy.
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
Let's just say there is a heaven as most Christians and Muslims believe.

If you had a loved one who never made it, (a son or daughter perhaps) who was permanently banned, would it still be heaven for you?
Your understanding of Hell and Heaven is wrong :)
There is no banning. everyone will get there, its just a question of how ;)
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Good question and one I have asked people before. What kind of person could enjoy heaven if they knew a loved one was being tortured in hell?

The answer is *no one* because if the person is really a "loved one" it would be impossible. Therefore the only logical conclusion is that the Christians/Muslims who claim that they could enjoy heaven while a "loved one" is in hell do not really "love" this person they refer to as a "loved one."
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The answer is *no one* because if the person is really a "loved one" it would be impossible. Therefore the only logical conclusion is that the Christians/Muslims who claim that they could enjoy heaven while a "loved one" is in hell do not really "love" this person they refer to as a "loved one."
I think that is the plain truth.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Let's just say there is a heaven as most Christians and Muslims believe.

If you had a loved one who never made it, (a son or daughter perhaps) who was permanently banned, would it still be heaven for you?
That's a tough one. For 10 years my parents coped with their belief that I would not make it into Heaven because I was Raelian. Now that I've been heading LDS like them they are happier, but I led my two younger brothers out of the LDS Church too and it will be no easy task to get them back.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That's a tough one. For 10 years my parents coped with their belief that I would not make it into Heaven because I was Raelian. Now that I've been heading LDS like them they are happier, but I led my two younger brothers out of the LDS Church too and it will be no easy task to get them back.
Do you mean heeding?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
What place south of Heaven is there? And, how many?
It's a posh and trendy VIP club in Hell. Lilith gave me my ticket, and she said the bring "plus how many ever people I want." Hell doesn't have the highly exclusive clubs like Heaven.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Yes, heaven is heaven and nothing can change that reality.
Also, I consider the idea that anyone is "banned" from heaven to be inaccurate. Everyone who desires to live an eternal heavenly life free of sin, pain, and suffering is welcome. God gives everyone and everyone's relatives multiple opportunities to enter in, but does not force anyone. He will also wipe away all tears, so though it is sad to think of loved ones rejecting heaven from an earthy perspective, in heaven there there is no pain or regret.
Heaven Can Wait.

I hear tell it's overrated given it's troubles in the past .
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, that is not quite the way the scriptures express it.
Of course it doesn't state it quite like that. It is however how many people imagine it to be. It tends to be seen as the final victory of an "us vs. them" mentality, with the winners with the golden crown, no longer troubled by the sinners who are not us.

Not everyone thinks of heaven like that. But many do to the point it's that noticeable for me to call it out.

God is in the process of creating a new heaven and earth where there will be no more pain, struggling, destruction, or anything unpleasant.
Wouldn't you say that is what God is now? Why can't we just access the Love of God right now and experience that freedom from suffering, here in this world? Why do we need the bad stuff to go away, in order to know the Peace of God now?

Yet, there are those who do become so hard to the point of falling into the category of evil.
I think you are speaking of sociopaths, not just your average person who has found themselves in dire straits and not been able to find their way out and end up in places where they stumble and fall, and even end up harming others in the process. The true sociopath who is severed from any form of human emotion or empathy, is very, very rare. Not the average sinner, like any one of us.

So if those are missing in heaven, they pretty much are missing here too, considering how comparatively rare they are. Unless you think heaven is getting rid of anyone who isn't a perfect Christian? That image of heaven, is unpalatable in the extreme. It is even Christian.

You cannot change an evil abuser with love or compassion.
Are you sure? The Love of God, when experienced firsthand, pretty much vaporizes any ill we've held in our hearts. I'm pretty sure the experience of God changes everyone, radically.

Evil will not be present in the eternal heavenly realm.
Sure. Any darkness disappears in the Light of God. Anything impure will be purified. Any sin we bring with us, will be no more. That's not the same thing as God throwing people into hell.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Let's just say there is a heaven as most Christians and Muslims believe.

If you had a loved one who never made it, (a son or daughter perhaps) who was permanently banned, would it still be heaven for you?
From the title, I expected a thread about moderators here seizing even more power.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
From the title, I expected a thread about moderators here seizing even more power.

*Skulks silently at the back of the room, taking notes and speaking into an ear-piece*

Well...not actually talking into the ear piece. The microphone. Dammit, I was looking so smooth and spy-ish, too.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I can understand that, but the choice was theirs. They rejected heaven.

Just for clarity, what type of behaviour is the line around getting to heaven or not,bin your opinion?
I can understand some form of conditional love, but it would depend on the type of conditions as to whether such a thing appears consistent with humanity, IMHO.
 
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