Why Was Jesus Necessary?

[Faithofchristian]

So you say. You got ANY proof? Any at all? Note: your bible isn't proof-- it's your claim.



So YOU say. Who died and appointed YOU the Master And Ultimate Authority?

You keep forgetting one thing kind of important: Jesus was first and foremost? A JEW.

He spoke TO the Jews and only to the Jews.

ooops!



Not at all. We don't accept it, because you lack..... evidence.

That's kind of how it works: You are not Good Enough to be God's Spokes-person.

A real god would not stoop so ... mundane.

I expect a God to act Godly.

First you say --> Note: your bible isn't proof-- it's your claim)

But yet you run to the bible for your proof ---> You keep forgetting one thing kind of important: Jesus was first and foremost? A JEW.
He spoke TO the Jews and only to the Jews.)
This is what you posted, right.
So if I may ask, you got this out of the bible right, The bible you said, (your bible isn't proof.)
But yet you quote things out of the bible, that you say, is no proof.
What's up with all that. Go Figure.

 

[Faithofchristian]

So you say. You got ANY proof? Any at all? Note: your bible isn't proof-- it's your claim.



So YOU say. Who died and appointed YOU the Master And Ultimate Authority?

You keep forgetting one thing kind of important: Jesus was first and foremost? A JEW.

He spoke TO the Jews and only to the Jews.

ooops!



Not at all. We don't accept it, because you lack..... evidence.

That's kind of how it works: You are not Good Enough to be God's Spokes-person.

A real god would not stoop so ... mundane.

I expect a God to act Godly.

First you say --> Note: your bible isn't proof-- it's your claim)

But yet you run to the bible for your proof ---> You keep forgetting one thing kind of important: Jesus was first and foremost? A JEW.
He spoke TO the Jews and only to the Jews.)
This is what you posted, right.
So if I may ask, you got this out of the bible right, The bible you said, (your bible isn't proof.)
But yet you quote things out of the bible, that you say, is no proof.
What's up with all that. Go Figure.

 

[Faithofchristian]

So you say. You got ANY proof? Any at all? Note: your bible isn't proof-- it's your claim.



So YOU say. Who died and appointed YOU the Master And Ultimate Authority?

You keep forgetting one thing kind of important: Jesus was first and foremost? A JEW.

He spoke TO the Jews and only to the Jews.

ooops!



Not at all. We don't accept it, because you lack..... evidence.

That's kind of how it works: You are not Good Enough to be God's Spokes-person.

A real god would not stoop so ... mundane.

I expect a God to act Godly.

First you say --> Note: your bible isn't proof-- it's your claim)

But yet you run to the bible for your proof ---> You keep forgetting one thing kind of important: Jesus was first and foremost? A JEW.
He spoke TO the Jews and only to the Jews.)
This is what you posted, right.
So if I may ask, you got this out of the bible right, The bible you said, (your bible isn't proof.)
But yet you quote things out of the bible, that you say, is no proof.
What's up with all that. Go Figure.

 

[Faithofchristian]

So you say. You got ANY proof? Any at all? Note: your bible isn't proof-- it's your claim.



So YOU say. Who died and appointed YOU the Master And Ultimate Authority?

You keep forgetting one thing kind of important: Jesus was first and foremost? A JEW.

He spoke TO the Jews and only to the Jews.

ooops!



Not at all. We don't accept it, because you lack..... evidence.

That's kind of how it works: You are not Good Enough to be God's Spokes-person.

A real god would not stoop so ... mundane.

I expect a God to act Godly.

First you say --> Note: your bible isn't proof-- it's your claim)

But yet you run to the bible for your proof ---> You keep forgetting one thing kind of important: Jesus was first and foremost? A JEW.
He spoke TO the Jews and only to the Jews.)
This is what you posted, right.
So if I may ask, you got this out of the bible right, The bible you said, (your bible isn't proof.)
But yet you quote things out of the bible, that you say, is no proof.
What's up with all that. Go Figure.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But what good are words when you don't let everyone in on the game? If the playing field was level (everybody knew of the Jesus-Get-Out-Of-Hell card) missionaries would never have been needed.

Nope, your excuse here just doesn't fly.

,

This ties into our evolution as a species. Faith is also organic and grows over time as man searches and matures spiritually.

We have been created in the Image of God and that means all the potential is in the mirror of our heart and mind.

The creation is thus set with free will. We are asked to find our potential, as in doing this opens us to realise we are more than a flesh body and that life is our Mind and Spirit.

Look at the world. When we turn away from our spiritual selves, we destroy for greed and lust to feed self pleasure. When we turn to the spirit, we are motivated to love and serve all people.

Everything God has given us in the past has brought us to the day we now live in. Baha'u'llah has now said lets see what our endeavors in detachment will bring.

The first person to change is ones own self, then and then only will the light reflect to others. This is how Christianity has survived, the Light of Christ still shines, even if we have forgotten how to use it.

Regards Tony

 

[Skwim]

Why God gave the Manifestation of Jesus the Christ is obvious as the noon day sun.

The better question is why has God allowed people to ask such questions?

My guess is that he's powerless to stop them.

.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You've given an very good and articulate explanation of the Christian position. I do not wish to discourage you from being a Christian. However, may I point out that all through the Tanakh, God forgave people. A broken heart and contrite spirit is the only sacrifice God really wants.

The OT it was all animals. This case it is a human. We sacrifice animals for nourishment all the time. Alot of religions do rituals with animals. Not all with humans regardless their natures.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The OT it was all animals. This case it is a human. We sacrifice animals for nourishment all the time. Alot of religions do rituals with animals. Not all with humans regardless their natures.

The issue of human sacrifice is certainly problematic for Christianity. Somehow they simply don't think of it in those terms.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

My guess is that he's powerless to stop them.

.

Not at all God is all powerful, thus that is why He allows his Names to be degraded by some men

If there was no Sun how could dark exist?

Because creation has a Sun, then darkness also results. The darkness is just lack of light. Our choice.

This passage from the Bible tells us this;

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

We will all face our choices.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The issue of human sacrifice is certainly problematic for Christianity. Somehow they simply don't think of it in those terms.

Thats always been puzzling to me. Because he is god, the concept of human sacrifice is excused. Even hearing that puts me at awe. No one has explained it other than saying -but hes god-

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thats always been puzzling to me. Because he is god, the concept of human sacrifice is excused. Even hearing that puts me at awe. No one has explained it other than saying -but hes god-

It is willing sacrifice for the good of all, that all can benefit. The stories tell of those that were willing to suffer for the good of all.

I just thank them.

Regards Tony

 

[Skwim]

Not at all God is all powerful, thus that is why He allows his Names to be degraded by some men

And this makes sense to you: Because god is all powerful he allows his names to be degraded? The implication being that if god was not all powerful he'd be unable to allow his names to be degraded. Care to explain how this works?

If there was no Sun how could dark exist?

Well, in that darkness is simply the lack of light, my guess is that darkness would exist in abundance, Wouldn't it?

.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And this makes sense to you: Because god is all powerful he allows his names to be degraded? The implication being that if god was not all powerful he'd be unable to allow his names to be degraded.

Baha'u'llah has told us this;

"....For witness, how patient I am in bearing the burden which the husbandman layeth upon me. I am the instrument that continually imparteth unto all beings the blessings with which He Who is the Source of all grace hath entrusted me. Notwithstanding the honor conferred upon me, and the unnumbered evidences of my wealth—a wealth that supplieth the needs of all creation—behold the measure of my humility, witness with what absolute submissiveness I allow myself to be trodden beneath the feet of men….”

It is a lesson for us to consider. That our creator allows us to do as we do.

Regards Tony

 

[1robin]

I'm fine with that. I'll let you decide which subjects. I'll simply respond to whatever you post.

Well that would mean that I would have to choose what I wish to concentrate on and delete the rest of what you post. I would rather not have to do that. Could you please select 2 or 3 of the points you would most like to investigate sufficiently and self edit your responses. If not I will try and think of some way to pare this down to just a few subjects.

I thought when you started talking about destiny that you didn't believe in free will. My misunderstanding.

I don't remember talking about destiny but no worries.

I think you misunderstand how it is supposed to work. We are a priestly nation, so we have obligations which set us apart, just like our priests have obligations which set them apart from regular Jews. It doesn't mean that God has abandoned the Nations. Part of God's covenant with Abraham is that his seed (meaning all his descendants through Isaac) are to be a blessing to all the world. We can interpret this to mean that we are to inspire the world to ethical monotheism, and that we are to repair the world through advances in medicine, technology, and making society just and fair (I'm piecing that together from different speakers I've heard).

I think those goals are laudable but in Christianity there is more to the story. It suggests that your high priests were merely place holder for the eternal high priest (Christ) that would come in the fullness of time. Once he came the covenant with Israel was fulfilled and the old priestly order was no longer necessary. I don't think God turned his back on Israel but I think the covenant of the law was fulfilled. Anytime you want me to back my claims up with multiple verses just let me know.

You might want to rethink that. At Sinai, the Lord said over and over, "Speak to the Children of Israel." Not to the world. To one specific people. It was to this people that he gave the 613 laws, the Tabernacle and sacrificial worship system and Holy Days... In effect, you may not like it, but if you read your own Bible, you will find that God gave Judaism to Israel.

If you have ever heard of progressive revelation it means that God's purposes with different groups and people change over time. At one time God was busy trying to set up Israel as his revelatory conduit. That is when he was primarily dealing with Israel alone. He sent his prophets to Israel for thousands of years until he sent his greatest prophet (Christ) once that was done Israel's special roll as God's conduit was fulfilled and no longer needed. That is why he deals primarily with Israel at times and with the nations at large in other times. This stuff is very complicated and requires a lot more space to comment on than I have with having to address so many issues. I really hope you can figure out a way to limit the subjects we talk about to just a few at a time.

That doesn't mean we didn't spread understanding of ethical monotheism and what we knew of God. Many Gentiles of the surrounding countries became Righteous Gentiles, also sometimes called God-fearers or Noahides who worshipped the God of Abraham and lived decently but did not keep the 613. In the Christian scriptures, Cornelius is a God-fearer.

Yes many of those living in proximity to Israel became believers and that trend only grew until finally when the time was right God send his ambassadors (Christ and the NT authors) to the nations at large. When Gentiles come to believe in Yahweh it says they are grafted into the vine of Israel. In essence they become spiritual Jews.

Proving a negative is in many cases absurd and even impossible. It doesn't require evidence -- it requires lack of evidence to the contrary. So basically it is on you to prove you point, and then I would rebut your proofs. I will give you an example of a Christian claim:

What I was driving at was not proving a negative it was selecting only a few specific claims so that we can fully investigate them.

So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

Matthew 2:14-15

Let's go to the actual verse where the prophet says this:

"When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son." Hosea 11:1

Clearly the prophet is talking about Israel, not the messiah -- the verse is making a reference to the Exodus.

See, this prophecy claim is a challenging point and it would take a lot of time to hash it out so that we can have a resolution but with all these points I just can't spend enough time on any one issue to cover it fully. There is a very elegant answer to the problem you brought up but the best I can do in the time I have is give you a link to an explanation.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevin-deyoung/3133/

Perhaps if you do select just a few items to discuss you can pick this one to really dig into. I promise there are explanations for every problem you can present if I just had enough time to fully discuss it with you.

In the sacred texts it is God talking. Like I said, it's fine if Hashem wants to say it. But not you.

I don't get it. If God says something it is true, why am I forbidden from telling the truth. I will make you a deal if you can show me any biblical restriction about my calling Israel stubborn I will stop doing so. But I don't know how to talk about certain things without pointing out the stubbornness of Israel.

The primary theme of the Tanakh is to "fear God and keep his commandments."

I think it is full of Israel not doing this and the ramifications of their rebellion more than their obedience.

It is psychologically helpful to us. Why would that be a waste of time? God knew what he was doing when he commanded it.

We have two choices.

1. Hebrews all over Israel felt psychologically satisfied because some bull somewhere they don't even observe has his neck sliced open. I don't even understand what that could even mean.
Or
2. As I said the OT is full of types and shadows of the real things that came later. That the blood of bulls was shed as a symbolic prophecy to the blood that would be shed by the savior which would finally wash clean all that sin the Israel's high priest could only push forward year by year.

I know which one seems more rational and elegant to me.

Genesis doesn't record Melchizedek's birth or death. Hebrews makes a big to-do about this, as if it means that Melchizedek has always existed and will always exist (IOW he was Jesus). You have to admit, it's a pretty unwarranted conclusion.

Right, I don't know exactly what the bible means by his having no beginning nor end but the point was that Hebrews doesn't make a big deal about him, it makes a big deal about Christ being like him as a priest without beginning or end. Melchizedek is a very obscure figure in both books of the bible.

Abraham was promised more than just many descendants. For example, he and his descendants through Isaac were promised the land from the Nile to the Euphrates. Has that come to pass? He was promised that his descendants through Isaac would be a blessing to the Nations. Are you saying that this promise is broken today and in the future?

I did not limit Abraham's covenant to just many descendants but yes the covenant (as it was given at the time) is fulfilled. If you look at the primary purpose of the covenant it is easy to see that it has been fulfilled and replaced by a better covenant. Of course Israel has not always held on to their lands God originally gave them, they ceased to even be a nation for quite a while. His descendants through Isaac have been a blessing to all nations. Again this is a good candidate for the 2 or 3 subjects you could pick to study in depth. I just don't want to make those decisions for you.

BTW I am really enjoying our conversation.

Shalom

Yes, me too. I always find Jews competent debaters. Too bad the modern nation of Israel has taken such a secular turn. I wish they would go back to their former days when they considered their faith their most cherished possession.

Wait a sec, I just assumed you are Jewish. Are you or are you just a member of their faith. If so do you live in Israel at present?

I consider Israel the most amazing culture to have ever existed.

 

[1robin]

I would agree that some prophets were killed by Jezebel. It's when Christians begin to assert that this was par for the course that I take issue. Absolutely none of the prophets who wrote any of the sacred texts were killed by us.

In that list I gave you there were more prophets killed by people other than Jezebel. For example Isaiah was supposedly sawed in half in Judah. Ezekiel was supposedly killed by the leader of the Jewish rebellion in Babylon. Micah was killed by a Hebrew. Also the beheading of John the Baptist and the stoning of Stephen, etc.....However at this point I don't remember why I even brought this up.

But here is a whole list of prophets and how many of them died.
Lives of the Prophets - New World Encyclopedia

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

First you say --> Note: your bible isn't proof-- it's your claim).

Correct. It's your CLAIM. You can't use that to "prove" itself.

But yet you run to the bible for your proof ---> You keep forgetting one thing kind of important: Jesus was first and foremost? A JEW.
He spoke TO the Jews and only to the Jews.)
.

I'm critical of your CLAIM. I'm proving you are being INCONSISTENT WITHIN YOUR OWN CLAIM.

This is what you posted, right..

I CAN criticize your claim using your own claim.

So if I may ask, you got this out of the bible right, The bible you said, (your bible isn't proof.)
But yet you quote things out of the bible, that you say, is no proof.
What's up with all that. Go Figure.

See above. Here you could have presented an actual... argument. Yet you don't.

Hmmmm...

 

[Faithofchristian]

Well that would mean that I would have to choose what I wish to concentrate on and delete the rest of what you post. I would rather not have to do that. Could you please select 2 or 3 of the points you would most like to investigate sufficiently and self edit your responses. If not I will try and think of some way to pare this down to just a few subjects.

I don't remember talking about destiny but no worries.

I think those goals are laudable but in Christianity there is more to the story. It suggests that your high priests were merely place holder for the eternal high priest (Christ) that would come in the fullness of time. Once he came the covenant with Israel was fulfilled and the old priestly order was no longer necessary. I don't think God turned his back on Israel but I think the covenant of the law was fulfilled. Anytime you want me to back my claims up with multiple verses just let me know.


If you have ever heard of progressive revelation it means that God's purposes with different groups and people change over time. At one time God was busy trying to set up Israel as his revelatory conduit. That is when he was primarily dealing with Israel alone. He sent his prophets to Israel for thousands of years until he sent his greatest prophet (Christ) once that was done Israel's special roll as God's conduit was fulfilled and no longer needed. That is why he deals primarily with Israel at times and with the nations at large in other times. This stuff is very complicated and requires a lot more space to comment on than I have with having to address so many issues. I really hope you can figure out a way to limit the subjects we talk about to just a few at a time.

Yes many of those living in proximity to Israel became believers and that trend only grew until finally when the time was right God send his ambassadors (Christ and the NT authors) to the nations at large. When Gentiles come to believe in Yahweh it says they are grafted into the vine of Israel. In essence they become spiritual Jews.

What I was driving at was not proving a negative it was selecting only a few specific claims so that we can fully investigate them.

See, this prophecy claim is a challenging point and it would take a lot of time to hash it out so that we can have a resolution but with all these points I just can't spend enough time on any one issue to cover it fully. There is a very elegant answer to the problem you brought up but the best I can do in the time I have is give you a link to an explanation.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevin-deyoung/3133/

Perhaps if you do select just a few items to discuss you can pick this one to really dig into. I promise there are explanations for every problem you can present if I just had enough time to fully discuss it with you.

I don't get it. If God says something it is true, why am I forbidden from telling the truth. I will make you a deal if you can show me any biblical restriction about my calling Israel stubborn I will stop doing so. But I don't know how to talk about certain things without pointing out the stubbornness of Israel.

I think it is full of Israel not doing this and the ramifications of their rebellion more than their obedience.


We have two choices.

1. Hebrews all over Israel felt psychologically satisfied because some bull somewhere they don't even observe has his neck sliced open. I don't even understand what that could even mean.
Or
2. As I said the OT is full of types and shadows of the real things that came later. That the blood of bulls was shed as a symbolic prophecy to the blood that would be shed by the savior which would finally wash clean all that sin the Israel's high priest could only push forward year by year.

I know which one seems more rational and elegant to me.

Right, I don't know exactly what the bible means by his having no beginning nor end but the point was that Hebrews doesn't make a big deal about him, it makes a big deal about Christ being like him as a priest without beginning or end. Melchizedek is a very obscure figure in both books of the bible.

I did not limit Abraham's covenant to just many descendants but yes the covenant (as it was given at the time) is fulfilled. If you look at the primary purpose of the covenant it is easy to see that it has been fulfilled and replaced by a better covenant. Of course Israel has not always held on to their lands God originally gave them, they ceased to even be a nation for quite a while. His descendants through Isaac have been a blessing to all nations. Again this is a good candidate for the 2 or 3 subjects you could pick to study in depth. I just don't want to make those decisions for you.

Yes, me too. I always find Jews competent debaters. Too bad the modern nation of Israel has taken such a secular turn. I wish they would go back to their former days when they considered their faith their most cherished possession.

Wait a sec, I just assumed you are Jewish. Are you or are you just a member of their faith. If so do you live in Israel at present?

I consider Israel the most amazing culture to have ever existed.

If I may say, did you ever give it any thought, that those in Israel are not all of Israel.
Romans 9:6---"Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"

What this means is, that not all of them that claim to be Israel are of Israel.

Alot of people don't know this either, That in Israel there are only 2 tribes left in Israel.
The tribe of Israel and the tribe of Judah.
The other 10 tribes are scattered throughout the world.
This is why James wrote in his book of James 1:1--"To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad greeting"

So not all the tribes are still in Israel, this why it is written, ( For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel) they that are there in Israel, are not true Jews.
This is why Christ Jesus said in the book of Revelation 2:9--( I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but the synagogue of Satan)

You see those over in Israel, which say they are Jews, but are not, true Jews.

These are those, who call themselves Jews and are not true Jews, these are those which Christ Jesus was dealing with back while he was here on Earth.
These are those false Jews, who cried out to crucify Christ Jesus.

( For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel)

 

[Faithofchristian]

Correct. It's your CLAIM. You can't use that to "prove" itself.



I'm critical of your CLAIM. I'm proving you are being INCONSISTENT WITHIN YOUR OWN CLAIM.



I CAN criticize your claim using your own claim.



See above. Here you could have presented an actual... argument. Yet you don't.

Hmmmm...

As a Christian, where else do you think a Christian will go, but to the bible for their proof, just because you can't handle that, That's your problem.

You see, you might pull that over on other Christians, but then, I'm not one of those other Christians, that will be trick into things. Of trying to get me to go outside of the bible for my proof of evidence, which absolutely will not work with me.
Therefore whether you like it or not, The bible is my absolute truth. And all my evidence will be and can be proven in the bible.
But seeing you have no idea or clue what the bible supports or confirms.There your totally lost at.

If you were ask to translate the German language into English, how would you go about it ?
Most likely you would go to a library or on the Internet to find the necessary tools that you would need to translate the German language into English.

But seeing those people 300 to 400 years ago, didn't have those options. So they did the best that they could with what limited tools they had at the time.

So some words got lost in translation, so they did what they could to translate the Hebrew and Greek language into English.

So when they came across a word, they did the best they could to translate a word into English.
So if you were ask to translate the German language into English. Without having the necessary documents to help you. You wouldn't do so well either.so there would be some words that got lost in your translation of a word.

That's like saying, why did those people back 300 years ago, travel by horses instead of by cars, they did have cars back then nor did they have the necessary documents to do a better job at translation of languages either. So some words got lost in translation.

 

[Muffled]

I am very surprised by hearing you admit this. Are you sure you typed this the way you intended to? I thought the whole idea of substitutionary atonement through our Lord and savior Jesus Christ was Anathema to Muslims. You just flipped my lid. So your telling me you believe your going to make it into heaven because you were born again through faith in the sacrifice of Christ which the Quran says never occurred?

Again we are so close to agreeing here that I am flabbergasted. I don't believe God could let sinners into heaven unchanged or they would simply make heaven just as much of a hell as we have made this life. The bible says that even though a sinner remains a sinner even after giving his life to Christ that he will be given a perfect spiritual body and a perfect (sin free) mind as well when he is resurrected and if he was a believer. That is why God had to make a separate area for those who never gave their life to belief in Christ's sacrifice on their behalf because when resurrected their natures are still as corrupt as they were in this life.

Well I am pleased our respective positions are not quite so far apart as I believed when we began this discussion. You know your not that far off, why don't you go ahead and just become a Christian and come on in for the win with the home team. Trust me, converting from Islam to Christianity is all gain and one of the most liberating changes in world view a human being can make. A good source to listen to facilitate this change of heart is to listen to a guy named Wallid Shoebat who went from a sinful Muslim PLO terrorist to one of God's greatest experts on Islam and Christianity. Ho travels around with several former Islamic terrorists sharing the story of the liberation they felt not being yoked to Muhammad any longer. I am not talking down to you here at all, I sincerely pray for your conversion.

I believe you are in error. I am a born again Christian as my statement of religion states. You are also in error in thinking I said that substitutionary atonement was required to get into Heaven.

I believe those who don't wish to be forgiven their sin because they love their sin will not be welcome on Earth when the Kingdom comes so they have to go somewhere where they can't cause trouble. Hell certainly serves that purpose and most likely provides punishment as well.

I believe I can pray for your eyes to be opened so you can see that Islam is another revelation of God similar to that given to the Jewish people. It isn't as good in Christianity but it is better than paganism.

 

[Muffled]

Oh, the current model has the earth becoming engulfed by the expansion of our sun, when it goes from yellow G-type sun, to a red giant. It's diameter will expand beyond Mars' orbit, and the earth will be swallowed up without so much as a blip.

This has zip-all to do with anything these "christians" have claimed.

I believe I agree. This is what the Book of Revelations says: Rev. 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.3 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places...

I believe that means asteroids or a big one blown up in pieces. Science predicts an asteroid big enough would burn up the oxygen in the atmosphere which is what appears v 14 is talking about. An asteroid hitting a tectonic juncture would break the mantle and probably would have global results.