Why Was Jesus Necessary?

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Your either going to start cleaning up your posts and shortening them ...

Irony, in light of THIS:

Come off it Bob. You posted six times in 9 minutes.

Pretty much ALL my posts are short, especially when compared to yours which frequently list like 10 bible verses, and contain YOUR PERSONAL version of what the bible supposedly says (instead of what it clearly says...)

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The people who want to rebel and by the God of their own lives will always outnumber those who can swallow their pride, admit they are not perfect, and submit to a higher moral standard. .

The above? Is extremely egotistical, arrogant and highly judgment of roughly 70% of the planet...


1) you ASSume that YOUR god and ONLY YOUR VERSON of the christian god must be the "right" god

2) you ASSume that YOUR interpretation of the bible is the ONLY one that is "correct"

Notebook: I would estimate that as much as 50% of Christianity REJECTS your version of things outright....

3) you ASSume that YOUR version of "morality" is magically "higher" than 70% of the planet.

4) IF YOU ARE CORRECT? THIS MEANS YOUR GOD HAS A FAIL RATE OF 70% OR WORSE.

Hmmmmm.....

if your god were a CAR? The company that made it would be bankrupt.

If your god were a DRUG? IT WOULD BE RECALLED AND TAKEN OFF THE MARKET AS A COMPLETE FAIL.

Face it -- you are only making your case WORSE.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Last chance. Make this accusation again and we are done, perhaps permanently.

But it's just PEACHY for YOU to accuse me of worse things?

Irony.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

How do you get that? My life isn't different whether there is an afterlife or not. I walk God's way because he is Avinu Malkenu, our Father, our King. He is the Almighty, the sovereign of the universe. Where was I when he created the world? I am so small in his presence. And yet he cares for me -- the very hairs on my head are numbered. Who is a God like our God? And so I obey him out of awe and love; I obey him simply because he is God. I obey him because he is the God of Israel and this is our covenant -- this is our identity. Whether there is a world to come, or whether this life is all there is? Completely irrelevant. I'm much more interested in Tikkun Olam, repairing this world, bringing a little heaven into this world.

It is presumptuous for you to think you have a monopoly on God. First of all, anyone can read the Torah and know God through his own words. We don't need anything more than that. But in addition to that, the Jewish mystics speak of knowing God i a personal way. Although I have never seen God with my eyes or heard his voice with my ears, I have heard his still small voice in my heart. The only way you get around experiences like mine are to call us nuts or liars. You don't like it when atheists do the same to you.

What is it that you imagine you have in your religion that Judaism doesn't also offer? I can't think of anything. Usually Christianity advertises grace, forgiveness, Messiah, heaven... All those are in Judaism. Indeed, Christianity INHERITED them from Judaism. This is why, according to your own gospels, Jesus said, "Salvation is from the Jews."

Speaking for must of us we believe it is true and do not then claim it is untrue. I think it more accurate to say that it is true but the interpretation of it by Jews is incorrect.

I'm aware that parts of your Christian Scriptures (especially Hebrews) disparages Judaism, in order to missionize the new Christian faith. It's kind of like a commercial for Pepsi that puts down Coca Cola. Rather shallow marketing if you ask me.

Basically, if you accept the Tanakh (and you claim you do, that you believe it is God's word) then you believe what God said when he said that the covenant he made with Abraham and his descendants was eternal. Otherwise you make God a liar.

It seems to me that a version of Christianity can exist that accepts that Jews are still God's covenant people and that Christianity has a special relationship with Judaism, which is its foundation.

well stated, Good Sir (or Madam). I was especially struck by the parts I put in italics.

<raises coffee cup in toast>

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Forgiveness and mercy was not the highest goal. The highest goal of God is to glorify God
see "God's Passion for God's glory" by John Piper which is partly "The End for which God created the world" by Jonathan Edwards

Mercy is near the apex but that is the apex

The Doxological Coda to Psalms

Indeed. That's not really something you want to see, in a being who is all powerful: Massive Egotism.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I don't agree, especially since it seems illogical to me to feel that God needs our glorification. Instead, I think it's more likely that God wants us to do what he says to do because of our love for God and Creation.

Interesting take, and I have to agree-- what sort of All Powerful entity would require constant adoration, anyway?

Not one that was ... good...

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind to be absolved?

Some say god wanted each individual to prove themselves worthy of such forgiveness. Okay, then why didn't he make the playing field level, where each and every person on earth had an equal chance? Why were only some apprised of god's requirement?---many, many never having got or getting the message. And not everyone is mentally capable of grasping the truth of god's test, yet they, along with the ignorant, have been left out of god's forgiveness. Others, such as myself, god has simply failed to convince; and whose fault is that; a puny mortal mind besting the best efforts of god? AND, as an omniscient being, god would be well aware of all these imminent failures. He knew that persons X, Y, and Z would never be on the receiving end of his forgiveness, but instead end up in hell or wherever. So, why even allow such poor unfortunate souls be born? Truthfully, as the story is laid out, god comes off as quite the heartless monster

So, nope, the notion of proving oneself worthy just doesn't wash, at least not under the auspices of an all-loving and benevolent god, which puts us right back at square one. Why did god even bother with Jesus?


Ideas?


.

Greek and Roman gods, from what I know, always had some sort of sacrifice involved. Cant remember the details in my history art class; but, it made me laugh. Jews dont have that type of god-think sacrifice human; so, if jesus followed jewish customs, most likely it wasnt his idea for him to be literally sacrificed rather than him humble himself in service to others and god.

He could have used another method. However, the idea is when he dies physical death, you die to flesh and when he resurrected in spirit, so does the beilever. It shows one must die to self and rise in spirit.

I dont know any other way to sacrifice something of the highest value; ones life.

But then, even though I understand why and how it I still feel its barbaric.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Don't see this as making any difference. According to the story Jesus (regardless of his nature) was sent to earth to abolish the sins of mankind. WHY? Why didn't god/Christ simply snap its fingers?

.

So believers can learn for themselves rather than have someone else do it for them.

 

[Skwim]

So believers can learn for themselves rather than have someone else do it for them.

Learn what?

.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Learn what?

.

Sacrificing their ego and things they feel are turning them away from god. Spiritual detox. Many religions do it. Just, christians do it through mirroring and/or impersoning (depending on denomination) the life, wounds, and resurrection of christ.

Basically, they learn to live a humble life. Get rid of stuff like pride, ego, thins that they feel are negative inside (gut feelings). Then are resurrected or born again to a new person and see life in a (ideally) or humble and more people oriented state of mind.

They learn how to sacrifice their old self to live a new life in order to experience and share gratitude for living in prayer and hope for a better life for what they do or believe in this.

 

[Skwim]

So believers can learn for themselves rather than have someone else do it for them.

That might be great if everyone in the world was given the chance, but they aren't. As I pointed out in my OP, god didn't make the playing field level, where each and every person on earth was given a shot at redemption. So why were only some apprised of god's requirement---many, many never getting the message? The only answer I can see is that god simply doesn't care about everyone, only a select few.


.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That might be great if everyone in the world was given the chance, but they aren't. As I pointed out in my OP, god didn't make the playing field level, where each and every person on earth was given a shot at redemption. So why were only some apprised of god's requirement---many, many never getting the message? The only answer I can see is that god simply doesn't care about everyone, only a select few.


.

Actually, I dont know. I cant speak of god as if god actually had some sort of influence and dictation for people. Doesnt add up for me.

Well, christianity is not a faith that promotes equalness. Its highly dependent on who believes and who doesnt. Id assume people who speak for god have that uneven playing field probably for power and political purposes. History is full of people using religion as a backbone for power and control.

But if I spoke for god, no. Of course god doesnt care. Shrugs. Why do we (no-believers?) think he should?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Actually, I dont know. I cant speak of god as if god actually had some sort of influence and dictation for people. Doesnt add up for me.

Well, christianity is not a faith that promotes equalness. Its highly dependent on who believes and who doesnt. Id assume people who speak for god have that uneven playing field probably for power and political purposes. History is full of people using religion as a backbone for power and control.

But if I spoke for god, no. Of course god doesnt care. Shrugs. Why do we (no-believers?) think he should?

Hmmm... because all the god-promoters, everywhere, are so frequently bragging on how "just" and "good" and so forth, their favorite deity is?

And we, being thinking creatures, can easily point out where their system of beliefs create conditions wherein the god cannot possibly qualify for any of those traits?

I think of it this way:

If I built a system of public transportation using, say electric trains. And I had 3 rails in the system, with a live, high-voltage middle rail that was exposed to the elements. And if it was fairly easy for a human wandering around my facility, to wander down to the rails, do you think I need to be responsible for whatever happens to them?

Or should I simply allow "the natural order of things" to take place, and the first few poor humans who stumbled down on my rail system, get electrocuted as an example of what NOT to do?

What if I picked at random, 1 in 10 people, and hinted to them, that the middle rail MIGHT be dangerous? But I did it in code, with clues. And then I let them tell others-- or not.

Or what if I put flyers warning of the danger around the facility-- but I wrote them in rhyming verse, in code, that only subtly hinted at the risk... moreover, suppose I wrote everything in Sanskrit-- a long dead language.

What would you think of the person who created such a system of transportation? What if there were LAWS requiring everyone to USE this system?

For this is exactly how many religions operate. Only worse... there is no direct, observable people being killed by stepping on the third rail...!

 

[Miracle]

This has nothing to do with your question but, how do I make a thread....like open a discussion. I've been trying to figure it out.....

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

This has nothing to do with your question but, how do I make a thread....like open a discussion. I've been trying to figure it out.....

Welcome! To make a new post, you need to navigate to the top of one of the sub-pages, i.e. under the top-name "FORUMS". That is in the grey bar across the top, when you first get to RF's home page.

When you click FORUMS, it will open the top-level of all the available pages.

Go down the page, and pick an appropriate sub-page that you want to create a new thread in.

Let's walk through an example: Click FORUMS (the top level)

Scroll down, then click Religious Debates-- this opens up a new page, that has all the sub-pages under this category.

Down the page a bit, click General Religious Debates, which opens up yet another page.

At that point? You should see a largish button near the top-right of this page: POST NEW THREAD.

Click that. Fill in the title, your starting (opening/original) post, click post and there you go!

 

[Miracle]

Welcome! To make a new post, you need to navigate to the top of one of the sub-pages, i.e. under the top-name "FORUMS". That is in the grey bar across the top, when you first get to RF's home page.

When you click FORUMS, it will open the top-level of all the available pages.

Go down the page, and pick an appropriate sub-page that you want to create a new thread in.

Let's walk through an example: Click FORUMS (the top level)

Scroll down, then click Religious Debates-- this opens up a new page, that has all the sub-pages under this category.

Down the page a bit, click General Religious Debates, which opens up yet another page.

At that point? You should see a largish button near the top-right of this page: POST NEW THREAD.

Click that. Fill in the title, your starting (opening/original) post, click post and there you go!

Thank you so much!!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Because as Christianity and many other faiths claim it is what we do in this life that effects what we will spend eternity doing.

Sure, but it's not necessary. Our lives would be the same without such a doctrine. I stand by what I said.

Just to remind you, Robin, I'm only engaging as part of a light hearted intellectual discussion. It is not my intent to undermine your faith. I hope you will be the best Christian you can be. If at any time this starts to get under your skin, just let me know and I will back off.

If I am destined to go to hell then trying to live the best life I can right now is secondary.

If you are "destined" to go to hell, you might as well relax since whatever you do is not your choice.

It is not presumptuous to think that there is one true faith just as there is only one unique truth to every question.

I'm not saying that all faiths are equal. Some are clearly closer to the truth than others. I personally think that Judaism is pretty doggone good. The thing is, Judaism is only meant for the Children of Israel, not the world. The only the a Gentile needs be is an ethical person who believes in God (of some sort).

What kind of God would hide bits and pieces of his divine word in several hundred man made religions?

I don't think God is all that hidden. No matter where you go in the world, your culture will sense the divine and have a concept that right behavior is required.

The greatest sins the ancient Hebrews committed time and again is the accepting of other faiths. Judaism's history is one long story of their "whirring" after other God's and Yahweh's vengeance against them for time after time. That is probably the most common theme in the OT. I am very concerned your doing something very similar.

But that is specifically for us. We are set apart. Just as our priests have certain laws that apply only to them, we Children of Israel have a strictness that applies only to us, because we have a responsibility to the world that other peoples do not share.

It's not quite that simple. Both Judaism and Christianity contain salvation but in both cases it is through Jesus Christ.

This is just nonsense. Jesus is irrelevant to Judaism. No offense to my Christian friends, but for you, the Tanakh functions a lot like Rorschach ink blots: you see in the text references to the messiah in places where it's not there. It's like seeing castles in cloud formations, or the Virgin Mary on toast.

In the OT it was through faith in a future Messiah

I've heard a few Christians say this before, but they are mistaken. Whoever made this up was lying. There is nothing in the Tanakh to support this.

the stubborn Jewish people

God has a right to say such things through his prophets. When human beings say things like this, it is Jew hatred.

You need the blood of the true sacrificial lamb for salvation.

Although God asked for sacrifices (for our psychological benefit), the truth is that a broken heart and a contrite spirit is all that has ever been needed for our sins to be forgiven.

You want to know what the NT has the OT doesn't.

I've read the entirety of the Christian Scriptures. Some things in it are pretty good, and some things I basically just see as ignorant.

The bible doesn't disparage the OT.

The book of Hebrews certainly does. It claims that the covenant between God and the Children of Israel (given first to Abraham, then expanded upon at Sinai) is abrogated. It says our priesthood is replaced by the priesthood of Mechizadek. On and on.

In Genesis, God says that his covenant with Abraham and his descendants through Isaac is ETERNAL. It can't be fulfilled if by fulfilled you mean it is now ended. Not if you believe the Tanakh as you say.

He sent the teachers and prophets through the descendants of Abraham (forgetting for the moment the Hebrews killed most of them)

We killed MOST of the prophets? Of the prophets who wrote the sacred texts, which of them did we kill?

 

[1robin]

This is because I find one long, rambling full of rabbit-trail posts very VERY difficult to follow.

What am I supposed to do with you. I complain you posted 6 times in 9 minutes so you respond 12 times in 30 minutes. Do you read anything I type, ever?

A post should have ONE (1) point, and be concise, or at best, 3. I made SIX rebuttals to the parts of your hour-long "sermon" that I considered worthy of comment.

Every post I make shouldn't produce 2 or 3 from you. I have a lot of people to respond to who make much more challenging posts than you are so I can't have you clogging up my alerts page every single time we have a discussion.

The rest was just rambling, off-topic, etc.

So it is possible for you to cut something, of some type, somewhere?

 

[1robin]

Your continued inability to actually address my CONTENT, but instead complaining about ME, PERSONALLY, is duly noted.

It seems to be your #1 strategy...

Ignored for content and time. I may just start responding to you last after I get to everyone else.

 

[Faithofchristian]

In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind to be absolved?

Some say god wanted each individual to prove themselves worthy of such forgiveness. Okay, then why didn't he make the playing field level, where each and every person on earth had an equal chance? Why were only some apprised of god's requirement?---many, many never having got or getting the message. And not everyone is mentally capable of grasping the truth of god's test, yet they, along with the ignorant, have been left out of god's forgiveness. Others, such as myself, god has simply failed to convince; and whose fault is that; a puny mortal mind besting the best efforts of god? AND, as an omniscient being, god would be well aware of all these imminent failures. He knew that persons X, Y, and Z would never be on the receiving end of his forgiveness, but instead end up in hell or wherever. So, why even allow such poor unfortunate souls be born? Truthfully, as the story is laid out, god comes off as quite the heartless monster

So, nope, the notion of proving oneself worthy just doesn't wash, at least not under the auspices of an all-loving and benevolent god, which puts us right back at square one. Why did god even bother with Jesus?


Ideas?


.

Well it's evidence, that you have no understanding why Jesus was necessary.

Let's for say, our human law will say, if you break the law, the penalty of breaking the law, is death. So in breaking the law of God's, death pass upon all.

So what would be the atonement for breaking the law of God's.

Christ Jesus became our atonement, for breaking the law of God's.

So where humans should have been put to death, Christ Jesus step up in our place. And gave his blood in the place of our blood. For the Atonement of breaking the law of God's.
Jesus gave his life in the place of your life.
Jesus died willingly to save you.
This is why Jesus was necessary.

How many people can you think of, that would be willingly to die in your place?

This is what Christ Jesus did willingly. For all humans. All because Jesus loves us that much, to die in our place.