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Why Was Jesus Necessary?

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Oh. My. I seriously did not realize the extent of your blatant egotism.
Come off it Bob. You posted six times in 9 minutes. Your not taking the time to reason through actual arguments your just ranting, raving, and complaining. You might as well be yelling at traffic. You also have started doing that thing where you respond with two or three posts to every one I make. I can't let you monopolize all my time, there are far better debates I would like to have adequate time to properly debate so as usual I am going to start with a warning. Please make briefer posts which instead on emotional rants are well reasoned and sound arguments. They don't even have to be good arguments just not whinging.

Ain't it an amazing coincidence that you happened to be born in the exact right culture, that taught you the One And Only True© religion?
Nice text book genetic fallacy Bob (look it up). At one time I was the most bitter atheist you ever saw. Like C.S. Lewis I was the most reluctant Christian convert of that era. I used to make the same silly emotional rants against God your making here. Now I look back of that time period with terrible shame.

Of course: you have failed to show that demons are real, that sin is real, that Satan is real and that your religion can actually conquer death...
I didn't try to show they were real. The point I was making is all those things that are associated with evil are conquered by God. With atheism you still have all the horror with none of the hope. It is the most depressing world view ther eis, no wonder your so frustrated all the time.

Pity. You would THINK that the One And Only True© religion would have ...

... FACTS to show it's validity.
No Bob, something that requires faith is not something that provides certainty. At least not to unbelievers. Did you realize that all beliefs concerning external realities are also matter of pure faith. Christianity like almost everything else is the best inference to a solution not certainty.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
This is some Projective Assumption Strawman you have built up.
What straw man are you talking about? I simply said that quoting from a book you really don't understand is a waste of time (even so I have done it anyway on many occasions which so far you have completely ignore.

1) I not only know the bible better than YOU? Unlike you, I studied the whole ugly thing, cover-to-cover. I do not engage in your kind of Cherry Picking, either.
I doubt it. I threw my TV into the lake where I used to live and did nothing but read the bible cover to cover for a year straight then I spent three years studying the most important doctrines themselves and I have spent 20 years reading further book about the bible as I had time available and I have over 13000 semi professional debates on the subject plus another ten years being obsessed with professional theological debates. I don't think there are any of UTUBE left that I have not seen. Regardless you don't seem to even know what the bible says and your exegesis is on the level of a you Sunday school student.


2) I don't hate the bible-- I despise it. For it has created extremely hateful and Judgmental people such as ...

... you.
You are among the 6 people I have ever ran across that show more anger toward Christianity than any other. I used to deny God exists and hate him at the same time but you have even me beat.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
LMAO! A degree in ... religion?

Is that like getting a degree in Santa Claus? Or perhaps the Tooth Fairy?

Too funny. You wasted your education opportunities.
I didn't say anything about anyone having a degree in religion but it is referred to as a degree in divinity in most places. Why are you wasting your (and infinitely worse my own) time making fun of having a degree in theology. I don't remember the last time you even attempted to make a bad argument. Just complaints, rants, and accusations. How can someone walk around this frustrated all the time?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
This is a flat lie. But-- you failed to understand what I *actually* wrote:
Warning, if you desire to have a discussion with me never accuse me of lying. To claim I am lying means that you must know that I knew what I said was untrue but said it anyway. You have no access to whether I knew what I said was untrue or not so your accusation is actually a lie. Claim I am wrong all the time but continue claiming I am a liar and this conversation will draw to a close and I may put you on my ignore list. Your one extremely uncivil person Bob.

I said, if they live long enough, and receive a quality education? They become atheists eventually.
That is not true. Not that even if it was true you could possibly even know it. Prove what you claimed is true or withdraw this absurd claim.

Obviously, if they die too soon, or if they study dumb things? Like, say, getting a PhD in ... theology or some other area of mythology? They won't...
Your arrogance and bitterness makes you one unattractive person to dialog with. Your either going to start cleaning up your posts and shortening them or once again I will end our current discussion. If this keeps occurring I am just going to put you on my ignore list and be done with you but I bet your stubborn pride won't allow you to make these simple and honorable changes. I can't let someone's dissatisfaction with everything bring me down as well. The bible it's self commands me to end discussions this ugly and unfruitful and I am getting close to obeying this command in your case..
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Argument from Popularity Logical Fallacy.
I didn't say anything was true because it was popular. You use accusation of fallacies like some kind of crutch.

But. Perhaps YOU ought to consider WHY your god is 100% incapable of convincing more than 20% of the entire human population, that it is not real? (unbelievers/agnostics/atheists comprise the fastest growing segment, according to the latest studies...)
7.4 billion divided by 2.2 billion is 29.7%. Get a math book.

Or worse? WHY is your god incapable of convincing roughly 6-7 billion people that "he" is the One True God? The vast majority of humans do NOT believe in your god at all...!
The people who want to rebel and by the God of their own lives will always outnumber those who can swallow their pride, admit they are not perfect, and submit to a higher moral standard. A race of people which have had 300 years out of the last 5000 without major wars, devised the means of their own destruction and have almost used it twice, and kill their own young on an industrial scale are rebellious and sinful train wrecks who don't seem to have any desire to live honorably. Having billions of exceptions to that rule is truly miraculous.


So if we go with Argument From Popularity? You lose. badly.
I didn't make an argument from popularity but apparently you don't even know what one is. Far more people believe in a deity than don't. Only something like 1 out of 14 people lack believe in a deity.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
well as long as the afterlife is at least a possibility then it deserves our attention more than any other subject.

How do you get that? My life isn't different whether there is an afterlife or not. I walk God's way because he is Avinu Malkenu, our Father, our King. He is the Almighty, the sovereign of the universe. Where was I when he created the world? I am so small in his presence. And yet he cares for me -- the very hairs on my head are numbered. Who is a God like our God? And so I obey him out of awe and love; I obey him simply because he is God. I obey him because he is the God of Israel and this is our covenant -- this is our identity. Whether there is a world to come, or whether this life is all there is? Completely irrelevant. I'm much more interested in Tikkun Olam, repairing this world, bringing a little heaven into this world.

Christianity doesn't just give you a relationship with a dusty old book which may or may not be true, it gives you a relationship with a risen Lord and also the Holy Spirit which in turn can expose you to thing others have no access to.
It is presumptuous for you to think you have a monopoly on God. First of all, anyone can read the Torah and know God through his own words. We don't need anything more than that. But in addition to that, the Jewish mystics speak of knowing God i a personal way. Although I have never seen God with my eyes or heard his voice with my ears, I have heard his still small voice in my heart. The only way you get around experiences like mine are to call us nuts or liars. You don't like it when atheists do the same to you.

I don't mean to be mean but you really ought to trade in your religion for mine. It offers so much more.
What is it that you imagine you have in your religion that Judaism doesn't also offer? I can't think of anything. Usually Christianity advertises grace, forgiveness, Messiah, heaven... All those are in Judaism. Indeed, Christianity INHERITED them from Judaism. This is why, according to your own gospels, Jesus said, "Salvation is from the Jews."

Speaking for must of us we believe it is true and do not then claim it is untrue. I think it more accurate to say that it is true but the interpretation of it by Jews is incorrect.

I'm aware that parts of your Christian Scriptures (especially Hebrews) disparages Judaism, in order to missionize the new Christian faith. It's kind of like a commercial for Pepsi that puts down Coca Cola. Rather shallow marketing if you ask me.

Basically, if you accept the Tanakh (and you claim you do, that you believe it is God's word) then you believe what God said when he said that the covenant he made with Abraham and his descendants was eternal. Otherwise you make God a liar.

It seems to me that a version of Christianity can exist that accepts that Jews are still God's covenant people and that Christianity has a special relationship with Judaism, which is its foundation.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
How do you get that? My life isn't different whether there is an afterlife or not. I walk God's way because he is Avinu Malkenu, our Father, our King. He is the Almighty, the sovereign of the universe. Where was I when he created the world? I am so small in his presence. And yet he cares for me -- the very hairs on my head are numbered. Who is a God like our God? And so I obey him out of awe and love; I obey him simply because he is God. I obey him because he is the God of Israel and this is our covenant -- this is our identity. Whether there is a world to come, or whether this life is all there is? Completely irrelevant. I'm much more interested in Tikkun Olam, repairing this world, bringing a little heaven into this world.
Because as Christianity and many other faiths claim it is what we do in this life that effects what we will spend eternity doing. Just take Christianity, it specifically says that if you do not give your heart to Christ and become born again your going to spend eternity in a terrible place. So if the afterlife is at least a possibility we need to at least spend the time to make up our minds about how to live it well. I mean what else is as important as you eternal destiny? Makes worrying about the latest iPhone, who won last nights game, how big out house is, or even how best to live this life kind of pale in comparison. Get your eternal relationship figured out then worry about what to do tomorrow. In Christianity the greatest form of obedience with the most sweeping ramifications is accepting Jesus as savior so as to ensure our eternal destiny. If I am destined to go to hell then trying to live the best life I can right now is secondary.

It is presumptuous for you to think you have a monopoly on God. First of all, anyone can read the Torah and know God through his own words. We don't need anything more than that. But in addition to that, the Jewish mystics speak of knowing God i a personal way. Although I have never seen God with my eyes or heard his voice with my ears, I have heard his still small voice in my heart. The only way you get around experiences like mine are to call us nuts or liars. You don't like it when atheists do the same to you.
It is not presumptuous to think that there is one true faith just as there is only one unique truth to every question. What kind of God would hide bits and pieces of his divine word in several hundred man made religions? Any God worthy of the name would and should give one unvarnished revelation (at least the core doctrines) of his nature and requirements for us. The greatest sins the ancient Hebrews committed time and again is the accepting of other faiths. Judaism's history is one long story of their "whirring" after other God's and Yahweh's vengeance against them for time after time. That is probably the most common theme in the OT. I am very concerned your doing something very similar.

What is it that you imagine you have in your religion that Judaism doesn't also offer? I can't think of anything. Usually Christianity advertises grace, forgiveness, Messiah, heaven... All those are in Judaism. Indeed, Christianity INHERITED them from Judaism. This is why, according to your own gospels, Jesus said, "Salvation is from the Jews."
It's not quite that simple. Both Judaism and Christianity contain salvation but in both cases it is through Jesus Christ. In the OT it was through faith in a future Messiah (Christ) and in the NT it was through a historical messiah (Christ). However if you want to contrast them the OT has the law (which scripture says never saved anyone), the NT has grace (which is all that is necessary for faith). The OT is full of what are called types and shadows which become literal in the NT. For example the lambs blood on the doorpost that saved the Hebrews during Passover became the blood of God's sacrificial lamb (Christ) which saves all believers. Can you see from that example how the same kind of subject is in both covenants but is greater in the new covenant's example. The OT is the story of God's preparation of the stubborn Jewish people to facilitate his son's entrance into the world, the NT is that triumphal event where the son actually appears to carry out the greatest 3 year ministry in the history of the world. If the OT was all we had no one could be saved.

New International Version
It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

You need the blood of the true sacrificial lamb for salvation.

New Living Translation
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

You want to know what the NT has the OT doesn't.

New International Version
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

You need to get rid of the OT corrupted false priests and bring in the one sinless eternal priest of the world.

Speaking for must of us we believe it is true and do not then claim it is untrue. I think it more accurate to say that it is true but the interpretation of it by Jews is incorrect.
You believe what is true and the interpretation by who is untrue?

I'm aware that parts of your Christian Scriptures (especially Hebrews) disparages Judaism, in order to missionize the new Christian faith. It's kind of like a commercial for Pepsi that puts down Coca Cola. Rather shallow marketing if you ask me.
The bible doesn't disparage the OT. Christ seems to quote from it every time you turn around. The NT's stance on the OT is simply that it's purpose has been served and something greater is now in effect. You could recreate much of the OT by simply quoting what was said in the new. It's like I told you, The OT is just one half of a story that has two halves (the second being the greatest). Don't think I come to abolish the OT, I am here to facilitate moving on to the new.

Basically, if you accept the Tanakh (and you claim you do, that you believe it is God's word) then you believe what God said when he said that the covenant he made with Abraham and his descendants was eternal. Otherwise you make God a liar.
I didn't say anything about the covenant between Yahweh and Abraham at all. Abraham was promised that his descendants would be a great people and that they would be the conduit through which he would reveal the truth about himself. That is exactly what he did. He sent the teachers and prophets through the descendants of Abraham (forgetting for the moment the Hebrews killed most of them) all the way through his greatest prophet, priest, and teacher (Christ). No, God's covenant was fulfilled in every detail at least in this context. What context were you referring to?

It seems to me that a version of Christianity can exist that accepts that Jews are still God's covenant people and that Christianity has a special relationship with Judaism, which is its foundation.
Where did you get the idea that I don't think the Jews are God's chosen people. The greatest Christian nation (the US) in the history of mankind is Israel's strongest ally. If we hadn't backed Israel it wouldn't even exist. What version of Christianity are you referring to, not mine for sure? You do realize that every author of the NT was a Jew as well? Heck Paul may have known more about Jewish law than any man in Israel.

Your really getting your self distracted with false ideas.
1. I believe the Jews are God's chosen people. ( BTW the bible says that anyone who becomes a Christian also becomes a spiritual Jew as well).
2. I believe God fulfilled (is fulfilling) his covenant with Abraham. (Christ and the NT authors were all Jews)
3. I believe in the OT (though we probably disagree about many interpretations).
4. I believe Christians have been the greatest supporter of Jews in human history.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind to be absolved?

Some say god wanted each individual to prove themselves worthy of such forgiveness. Okay, then why didn't he make the playing field level, where each and every person on earth had an equal chance? Why were only some apprised of god's requirement?---many, many never having got or getting the message. And not everyone is mentally capable of grasping the truth of god's test, yet they, along with the ignorant, have been left out of god's forgiveness. Others, such as myself, god has simply failed to convince; and whose fault is that; a puny mortal mind besting the best efforts of god? AND, as an omniscient being, god would be well aware of all these imminent failures. He knew that persons X, Y, and Z would never be on the receiving end of his forgiveness, but instead end up in hell or wherever. So, why even allow such poor unfortunate souls be born? Truthfully, as the story is laid out, god comes off as quite the heartless monster

So, nope, the notion of proving oneself worthy just doesn't wash, at least not under the auspices of an all-loving and benevolent god, which puts us right back at square one. Why did god even bother with Jesus?


Ideas?


.
Forgiveness and mercy was not the highest goal. The highest goal of God is to glorify God
see "God's Passion for God's glory" by John Piper which is partly "The End for which God created the world" by Jonathan Edwards

Mercy is near the apex but that is the apex

The Doxological Coda to Psalms
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Forgiveness and mercy was not the highest goal. The highest goal of God is to glorify God
I don't agree, especially since it seems illogical to me to feel that God needs our glorification. Instead, I think it's more likely that God wants us to do what he says to do because of our love for God and Creation.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Come off it Bob. You posted six times in 9 minutes.

This is because I find one long, rambling full of rabbit-trail posts very VERY difficult to follow.

A post should have ONE (1) point, and be concise, or at best, 3. I made SIX rebuttals to the parts of your hour-long "sermon" that I considered worthy of comment.

The rest was just rambling, off-topic, etc.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Nice text book genetic fallacy Bob (look it up). At one time I was the most bitter atheist you ever saw. Like C.S. Lewis I was the most reluctant Christian convert of that era. I used to make the same silly emotional rants against God your making here. Now I look back of that time period with terrible shame.

Notebook: It's not a fallacy if it's accurate. Your arrogance, your continued insistence that YOU and ONLY YOU are the SOLE HOLDER OF "TRUTH" shines through nearly every post you make.

In the same vein as your post above? I was once the King Of Siam, and held sway over millions! But I came to regret being an Absolute Ruler, and went on to other things.

See how easy it is to make stuff up? Your reference to the hack, Lewis, says more about you than you realize...
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I didn't try to show they were real. The point I was making is all those things that are associated with evil are conquered by God.

You made the unsupported "argument" was in "rebuttal" to the Flying Spaghetti Monster religion.

Under FSM? There are no demons, no Satans, none of that clap-trap.

This is because FSM is superior in every way that matters, to your ugly, brutal religion of slavery.

How sick is it, that you believe in an imaginary ENEMY? One that your "good" god is absolutely unwilling to STOP? And worse-- this "enemy" has a legion of very powerful HELPERS, who are ALSO not curbed in any meaningful way by your "good" god?
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
No Bob, something that requires faith is not something that provides certainty. .

Faith? There is absolutely NO virtue in faith -- it is the surrender of reason. Faith is giving up your right to seek knowledge and truth. Faith is the acceptance without question, some CLAIM from some AUTHORITY.

Faith is the antithesis of being a self-aware being. You may as well be a program running on a smallish computer...
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
What straw man are you talking about? I simply said that quoting from a book you really don't understand is a waste of time (even so I have done it anyway on many occasions which so far you have completely ignore.

Strawman was being nice. You were LYING, here-- when you claim I don't really understand the bible.

Why do you christians project your OWN fallacies onto everyone you meet?

I not only understand the bible? Unlike the vast majority of christians, I have read it cover-to-cover multiple times, under formal study programs, at a university level.

It is this understanding that converted me from a Genuine Christian™ into the atheist I am today.

No-- you are guilty of ASSuming that I don't understand the bible.

I suppose this is more of your arrogance/ego speaking: YOU and ONLY YOU get to have the attribute of "understanding the bible": Which translates into-- "the bible ONLY and EVER means what 1robin SAYS it means"
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
That is not true. Not that even if it was true you could possibly even know it. Prove what you claimed is true or withdraw this absurd claim.

Ample examples of empirical data confirm: People who were bamboozled into religion at a very early age, if permitted to experience good, wide-subject NON-RELIGIOUS education, and who DO NOT DIE YOUNG, tend to become atheists.

The range of age where they reject religious bamboozlement, varies with a number of factors, but the principle one appears to be EDUCATION, or exposure to ideas beyond the theistic culture they were accidentally born into.

The stronger the bamboozlement, the older they seem to be, when Waking Up occurs.

This can be logically extended: if they live LONG enough? And continue to be educated (non-theistically, i.e. QUALITY) They will eventually WAKE UP and smell the bullsh---.

So my claim stands: If people live long enough, and get EDUCATED, they will eventually become ATHEISTS.

The only REAL flaw? Is that *everyone* dies too soon, in that there is a maximum age limit (so far).
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Your arrogance and bitterness makes you one unattractive person to dialog with.

Right back atcha: You are highly judgmental and critical of ME, PERSONALLY with pretty much every single post. You snidely insert frequent negative PERSONAL comments that do nothing to support your arguments.

In fact? Most of your "argument" consists of these personal attacks....!

You consistently fail to attack my ARGUMENTS, and when you try? You ALWAYS include a personal attack/judgment about ME.

But I have thick skin-- I'm used to being abused by Good Christians™. I literally grew up with that.
 
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