Is Christendom spiritually famished ?

[blü 2]

Can the alarming crime rate and gross immorality among people who profess to be christian be a direct result of the spiritual ignorance of Christendom ?

Or might it have something to do with poverty, lack of access to education and opportunity, cultural depression and discrimination?

 

[Deeje]

Just simply what I said. When I read any other part of the Bible, even parables that Jesus gave like the prodigal son and Lazarus and the rich man, they seem to me to be within the realm of reality. Even though those parables aren't based on real people and actual events they are within the realm of possibility. I have no problem with accepting the supernatural, but when I read Job and I read about Samson, fighting a lion and pulling down that building and setting fox's tails on fire . . . it reads to me like a Rudyard Kipling story rather than the more realistic parts of the Bible.

I must admit that the story of Samson is a bit hard for peace-loving Christians to understand because of the excessive violence (and especially the cruelty towards the animals) but I guess in those times when dealing with the Philistines, who were enemies of God and his people and worshippers of Dagon, perhaps Jehovah was demonstrating his superiority over the false god of the Philistines in the only way they understood?

The parables of Jesus are always great teaching tools but I don't know how you can accept the rich man and Lazarus as being within the realms of reality....if taken literally, its a ridiculous story, but taken symbolically, it is powerful. The prodigal son is a favorite of mine. Have you watched the video on JW Broadcasting? Its the modern day version.
Jehovah's Witnesses BROADCASTING

I understand that later Bible writers referred to Job, seemingly as a real person and his story as real events, but it just doesn't read like that to me. I can't help it, when I read it this is the way I honestly feel. I understand that I could be wrong, but that is, nevertheless, the way I see it.

The story of Job is also one of my favorites because of the details it contains concerning the devil's challenge, not just to Job, but to all of us.
It shows how malicious the devil is, what he is capable of, and how far he would go if God did not put restrictions on his activities. I don't think we know the half of it.

I believe that Job is there in the Bible because we are all in his situation right now, struggling with one blow after another in the devil's efforts to make us curse God and leave him. The final part of the story is largely ignored by many, but it is the most heartening of all. Jehovah rewarded Job for all his trouble and blessed his family with 10 more children. Job had full faith in the resurrection and the 10 children he lost will be restored, and his whole family will be reunited in the paradise to come. I have a nice mental picture of that.

 

[Regiomontanus]

I'd been to Honduras twice, and Kenya once working, and the devout, fervent love for God blew me away. Then I returned to America, and my family and friends wanted me to forget all about it and go back to my entitled, hedonistic life. After 9/11 I experienced conservative, Evangelical Christians violating the very words of Jesus Christ. By 2003, I'd had enough and left Christianity; convinced that if Jesus Christ was real, people would not do that.

Admittedly, there was no viable Candidate to run against Trump, and with interference from abroad, he won. I too was astonished that he could work supporters up to a heated frenzy, almost frothing at the mouth. By 2012, I'd finally returned to Christianity, so was nonplussed about the campaign and outcome of the election. I worry that dire things will happen now.

Hello. We just have to be strong and not give up. I would like to think the country will come around (my first cup of coffee makes me optimistic).

Peace

 

[Regiomontanus]

I have difficulty with humans creatively interpreting and mixing and matching scripture to make things fit. Sort of driving square pegs in round holes. You end up with a lot of splinters on the floor..

Hello. Interesting point of view. But seeing how much of the Bible is metaphor and in parable form, interpretation seems inevitable to me.

Peace

 

[PureX]

If we focus all our attention on the evil humans do to each other, the evil humans do to each other is all we will see. And the world will look very dark. Darker than it really is, leaving us to become overly pessimistic and defensive. Just as if we focus all our attention on the good we humans do for each other, the good we humans do will be all that we see, and the world will look much brighter than it really is, leaving us vulnerable to it's real dangers.

So how do we learn to see what really is, rather than just what we're in the habit of looking for?

I think the answer to this question lies within ourselves, and within our own individual natures. And to discover this nature we need to spend some time honestly examining our own thoughts and the motivations that are generating them. This will take some time, and persistence, and practice. But I think the rewards will be great if we're willing to put in the work.

 

[shunyadragon]

Hello. Interesting point of view. But seeing how much of the Bible is metaphor and in parable form, interpretation seems inevitable to me.

Peace

Interpretation is accepted, but most of the Bible is not metaphor. The problem is one may say Christianity is Famished, out of touch with reality, and bankrupt, is the failure to put the Bible in the context of all the human human history of the different religions and cultures, and view the Bible and Christianity from an exclusive perspective.

Doctrines and dogma such as, the Fall and Original Sin, based on ancient mythology remain at the foundation of most Christianity. It must be understood that by far most of the Church Fathers and/or New Testament authors considered Genesis as literal history of the earth and Creation, and the New Testament reflects this and forms the foundation of Christianity with no hope for change in the future through 'interpretation.'

 

[Regiomontanus]

Interpretation is accepted, but most of the Bible is not metaphor. The problem is one may say Christianity is Famished, out of touch with reality, and bankrupt, is the failure to put the Bible in the context of all the human human history of the different religions and cultures, and view the Bible and Christianity from an exclusive perspective.

Doctrines and dogma such as, the Fall and Original Sin, based on ancient mythology remain at the foundation of most Christianity. It must be understood that by far most of the Church Fathers and/or New Testament authors considered Genesis as literal history of the earth and Creation, and the New Testament reflects this and forms the foundation of Christianity with no hope for change in the future through 'interpretation.'

Hello. Note I said much not most (and I meant to say the NT). As to how early Christians viewed Genesis, so what?

edit: by so what, I mean that considering the time in which they lived, it would of course be natural for them to read Genesis literally. But back to my point, just take the sayings of Jesus. Did He talk in direct, declarative statements? No, obviously. Interpretation is part of reading the NT.



Peace

 

[Jim]

"My people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and have hewed out for themselves, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. (Jer 2:13)

The broken cisterns might be the doctrines, creeds, rituals, and other devices that people have substituted in the place of learning from G_d, with His assistance, how to bring out the best in ourselves and in society.

 

[Earthling]

I must admit that the story of Samson is a bit hard for peace-loving Christians to understand because of the excessive violence (and especially the cruelty towards the animals) but I guess in those times when dealing with the Philistines, who were enemies of God and his people and worshippers of Dagon, perhaps Jehovah was demonstrating his superiority over the false god of the Philistines in the only way they understood?

I don't have the problem with the violence and cruelty towards animals. There's plenty of that in the portions of the Bible I have no trouble with seeing as within the realm of reality. I play video games, watch movies and listen to music that are excessively violent. Therein we have a separation from reality. When I'm playing a video game, like the Grand Theft Auto series, or watching a movie like Lord Of The Rings, I know they aren't real, much in the same way as a Christian should know the apocryphal books aren't real.

In the case of Samson the only way I can convince myself that those accounts are real is taking into consideration the holy spirit operating through him. His particular position as a Nazirite from birth, without taking vows, and therefore not being under the law forbidding the touching of dead bodies. The superpowers through the hair. The later makes sense from the perspective of the empowering of the holy spirit, but his entire story reads, to me, like a modern day comic book.

The parables of Jesus are always great teaching tools but I don't know how you can accept the rich man and Lazarus as being within the realms of reality....if taken literally, its a ridiculous story, but taken symbolically, it is powerful. The prodigal son is a favorite of mine. Have you watched the video on JW Broadcasting? Its the modern day version.
Jehovah's Witnesses BROADCASTING

The prodigal son is a favorite of mine as well. I'll check that link out. Regarding Lazarus, I know what you mean, but to me I see the points Jesus was making with the illustration as within reason when taken into proper context, and in that way within the realm of reality. Not within that realm as if possibly literal, but obviously making a point through illustration. It doesn't read to me like a comic book like Samson and even Job does.

The story of Job is also one of my favorites because of the details it contains concerning the devil's challenge, not just to Job, but to all of us.

It shows how malicious the devil is, what he is capable of, and how far he would go if God did not put restrictions on his activities. I don't think we know the half of it.

I believe that Job is there in the Bible because we are all in his situation right now, struggling with one blow after another in the devil's efforts to make us curse God and leave him. The final part of the story is largely ignored by many, but it is the most heartening of all. Jehovah rewarded Job for all his trouble and blessed his family with 10 more children. Job had full faith in the resurrection and the 10 children he lost will be restored, and his whole family will be reunited in the paradise to come. I have a nice mental picture of that.

I understand all of that, and agree with it completely, but still, it sounds to me more like a parable Jesus would tell like that of Lazarus than a literal account. Not as comic bookish as Samson, but totally out of character for Jehovah in a real sense. He had nothing to prove to Satan with Satan's petty accusations. Jehovah knew Job's heart. To put Job trough that degree of suffering was unnecessary, cruel beyond compare, and difficult for me to believe as literal.

 

[Jim]

Sometimes, I wonder if the Bible is useless?

A few months ago I was ardently promoting people immersing themselves in Bible stories, and denouncing Christians for not doing it more than they do. Then one day I critically examined my grounds for that, and couldn’t find enough to stand on. My impulse now is to say that there might be better ways to learn whatever you might learn from reading the Bible. I have an idea how you can test that if you’re interested.

For myself, I mostly only read it to see what I think about what other people say it says, and sometimes for context for some other lore and scriptures.

 

[12jtartar]

If you are a serious student of God's word, do you at times feel like Lot ?
. . .for that righteous man by what he saw and heard while dwelling among them from day to day was tormenting his righteous soul by reason of their lawless deeds".(2 Peter 2:8)

Can the alarming crime rate and gross immorality among people who profess to be christian be a direct result of the spiritual ignorance of Christendom ?

A cleric of Manhattan' Madison Av Church said: "the world is faced with a religious vacuum on a scale never seen before".

God tells us why this could be the case: " My people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and have hewed out for themselves, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. (Jer 2:13)

According to Jeremiah then, it's because Christendom's religions have strayed from God's Word. They have hewed out for themselves man made cisterns, cisterns that can hold no real spiritual refreshment.

This was admitted by a preacher in Pittsburgh (Earl L.Douglas). He asks "Why have we so often failed in our efforts as ministers?
His answer:"They come seeking for the bread of life, and we frequently offer them philosohy, sociology, psychology, politics and a review of current events.

Are these the broken cistern God was referring to in Jeremiah 2 ?

Neuropteron,
There is a lot to what you say. True Christians realize that they are surrounded by immorality of every kind, but they also realize, the worse things get,the closer Jesus is to returning to earth, to cleanse the earth of all wars, all people who want wars, and all immorality.
Please read Matthew 24:7-14. These things were, in a smaller fulfillment, in the first century, but have a much greater fulfillment in our day. When we see all these things, that Jesus gave for signs that he would come, soon. Even though it is going to be a very trying time for Christians, we know that the end of this rotten system is near, Matthew 24:32-34. Notice that these things would happen on one generation. These things are, not just happening, but are happening on an unpresidented scale, so there can be no
Mistake about the generation that Jesus was talking about.
As for many of the Religious leaders of Christendom, they are called Hirelings, Hired men, who really care nothing for the flock, they are really Mercenaries, John 10:11-15. It is very interesting to consider how this is recorded at 2Timothy 4:2-5, they, meaning the vast majority will gather teachers to tell them what they want to hear, anything, but never the truth, because that would cause the parisoners, to fire them and get apreacher to tickle their ears.
I believe that Matthew 13:33, is a parable speaking about the leaven, which a woman, a term sometimes speaking about false religion, she bid in three large measures, until the whole mass was fermented, which means that all the religions that began with Abraham will be completely corrupted, all three Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Isn’t this exactly what has happened???
The God of the Bible always gives hope of something better, and today, we know there must be ONE religion that God favors, as we are told at Ephesians 4:3-5,

If you are a serious student of God's word, do you at times feel like Lot ?
. . .for that righteous man by what he saw and heard while dwelling among them from day to day was tormenting his righteous soul by reason of their lawless deeds".(2 Peter 2:8)

Can the alarming crime rate and gross immorality among people who profess to be christian be a direct result of the spiritual ignorance of Christendom ?

A cleric of Manhattan' Madison Av Church said: "the world is faced with a religious vacuum on a scale never seen before".

God tells us why this could be the case: " My people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and have hewed out for themselves, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. (Jer 2:13)

According to Jeremiah then, it's because Christendom's religions have strayed from God's Word. They have hewed out for themselves man made cisterns, cisterns that can hold no real spiritual refreshment.

This was admitted by a preacher in Pittsburgh (Earl L.Douglas). He asks "Why have we so often failed in our efforts as ministers?
His answer:"They come seeking for the bread of life, and we frequently offer them philosohy, sociology, psychology, politics and a review of current events.

Are these the broken cistern God was referring to in Jeremiah 2 ?

 

[Jim]

The God of the Bible always gives hope of something better, and today, we know there must be ONE religion that God favors, as we are told at Ephesians 4:3-5,

Your post gave me some really good leads. Thank you!

Maybe part of the one religion that God favors is people encouraging and supporting each other, across all ideological divides, in using all our lore and scriptures to help us improve ourselves in ways that will help improve the world for all people everywhere.

 

[Windwalker]

I have difficulty with humans creatively interpreting and mixing and matching scripture to make things fit. Sort of driving square pegs in round holes. You end up with a lot of splinters on the floor..

But the reality is, that is what every group does. In fact, that is what every group of humans do regarding everything they perceive. "Reality" is really a matter of "consensus consciousness". And that reality, or truth, will run into other realities or truths of other groups of consensus consciousness and create certain confusions and conflicts, which sets up a tension to be resolved, and if the motivation is strong enough, a new consensus reality emerges to bring the groups together, until the next encounter, and the next, and the next.

The key to reconciling this with our minds is to realize that truth is not some static thing laying out there for us to discover, but rather is an evolving projection of our perceptions of reality we impose upon it which serves us on our path to Awareness beyond all perceptions.

 

[Windwalker]

Sometimes, I wonder if the Bible is useless? In my opinion, I wonder if there are about a dozen scriptures that summarize the whole of God's will for us, and describe what will please him. Micah 6:8 is one. Then there are the words of Jesus Christ himself where he says to love God, and to love each other. Another is the one where the principle is laid out that if we take joy in God punishing someone, he will stop doing it. Yes, perhaps a condensed Biblical Brief that explains all that we need to know?

A very astute point, and a very accurate one. Again, a story from my Bible College days.....

As young aspiring ministers in training, in a class for public speaking we were given an assignment to write a sermon to deliver before the student body. In searching out a topic to speak about, I happened upon the "Two Greatest Commandments" in the Bible, and that became my topic. I realized at that time that no other sermon than that was even necessary for preachers to preach, that everything else anyone could say about God was just fluff, noise filling the air. Jesus himself said just that, "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets".

You're right. "Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself", is the fulfillment of every single words spoken by any prophet at anytime. You don't need the Bible. You need God's Love in your heart, which when it is filled with that Love, wll naturally love others with that same Love you are filled with and love yourself. If you drop either the first injunction to "love God", that is to fill your cup with the Divine, you are unable to fulfill the second. If drop the 2nd, then you fail to fulfil the Truth of God by letting it flow from you to the whole world. God does this in creation, and we do it in ourselves as an extension of that Divine Love in the world.

It's that simple. Throw all the rest of what any other preacher or theologian may say away. "Biblical inerrancy"? Bah!!

 

[shunyadragon]

But the reality is, that is what every group does.

In reality no 'every group does not do this.' The Unitarian Universalists and the Baha'i Faith do not.

In fact, that is what every group of humans do regarding everything they perceive. "Reality" is really a matter of "consensus consciousness". And that reality, or truth, will run into other realities or truths of other groups of consensus consciousness and create certain confusions and conflicts, which sets up a tension to be resolved, and if the motivation is strong enough, a new consensus reality emerges to bring the groups together, until the next encounter, and the next, and the next.

Again, not true as a generalization. As an example, The basic foundation of Doctrine, Dogma, and scripture has not changed for almost 2,000 years since Christianity became Roman.

The key to reconciling this with our minds is to realize that truth is not some static thing laying out there for us to discover, but rather is an evolving projection of our perceptions of reality we impose upon it which serves us on our path to Awareness beyond all perceptions.

This is not how traditional Christianity has functioned in history.

 

[Windwalker]

In reality no 'every group does not do this.' The Unitarian Universalists and the Baha'i Faith do not.

Oh yes they do. Every single human being who has ever been part of any social group does. It's a fact of being human, just as much as every human alive has breathed air to live. Those that fail to participate in this consensus reality are cast out as outsiders. That your group espouses a more "universal" truth, is itself a consensus reality that its members have chosen to participate within.

Do you welcome those who say, "No! Only we are right and everyone else is going to hell!"? No? You either seek to correct them, or you reject them if that fails to persuade a change of view in them. That's because that idea is contrary to what you hold collectively as true. But if that same thing were said in an exclusivist group, that person would fit right into their consensus reality.

Again, not true as a generalization. As an example, The basic foundation of Doctrine, Dogma, and scripture has not changed for almost 2,000 years since Christianity became Roman.

You don't think Christian throught has evolved at all during that time? Even modern day "fundamentalists" are not what the first Christians were. It's impossible for them to be that, because the world itself has changed. It is only the superficial things you are looking at. Those are just basic frameworks, but how individuals and groups within those have seen and translated the world through those is anything but the same. It has and continues to evolve as people and groups do. Universalists are just a modern example of that evolution of newer and higher consensus truths.

This is not haw traditional Christianity has functioned in history.

How it has functioned historically is to dumb down the higher truths into pablum bites to feed to the masses. How it has functioned, is not the measure of Truth itself.

 

[Windwalker]

What I think is that people believe what they want to believe. They can state a belief in the Bible without ever having studied it, and dismissing parts of it that were meant to be taken literally as not being literal, for the sake of modern day science, for example, or for the traditions of men - Greek philosophy and apostate teachings such as the immortal soul, hell, trinity, cross, rapture, Christmas, Easter.

Everyone interprets the Bible to fit with how they see the world. Has your own views of God changed in your life? Do you understand it the same way you did when you were younger?

 

[Earthling]

Everyone interprets the Bible to fit with how they see the world. Has your own views of God changed in your life? Do you understand it the same way you did when you were younger?

I was an unbeliever until I was 27, so no, not when I was little, but I have had to adjust wrong thinking from time to time.

 

[Windwalker]

I was an unbeliever until I was 27, so no, not when I was little, but I have had to adjust wrong thinking from time to time.

Was it "wrong thinking" at the time you were believing it? If it was, then why were you believing it? Wasn't it serving you at that time as truth?

But let's take a step back further. For however many years you did not believe God existed, wasn't that the truth for you then, and didn't that seem to serve you? At some point, as you grew, you found that belief did not meet your needs and you changed what you believed to be true in order to fit with who you were becoming at that time. Truth changed for you, as you changed.

So, were you really "wrong" at that time it was working for you, or did it simply become "inadequate" to you as you grew, and you subsequently changed what you believed as truth to fit yourself where you were at then? If you think about this deeply enough, you'll see it's the latter.

 

[Woberts]

Spiritually, morally, and ethically bankrupt.
Unfortunately, it's not financially bankrupt.